What is the multiplier for Mastered Super Saiyan?

[Bald Expert]

As we know, Super Saiyan is a 50 times multiplier. But what is the multiplier for Mastered Super Saiyan?

Some people say that super saiyan is the same power as mastered super saiyan, but without any drawbacks which actually makes them fight better with high power level people. But was this even stated by Toriyama?

Which is fact and which is not?

[PFM18]

It's still 50x. Just less strain on the body

[Bald Expert]

It's still 50x. Just less strain on the body

Thanks!

And is this the same for Mastered Super Saiyan 2 and Mastered Super Saiyan 3 and Mastered Super Saiyan Blue?

[Pantalones]

Goku never talks about it as a different form, only in terms of getting used to "regular Super Saiyan" rather than using the straining, slowdown-inducing bulked-up forms that Vegeta and Trunks were concentrating their training on. Though Goku and Gohan did get a lot stronger through the process of mastering their Super Saiyan form, I've always seen that as just the side-effect of their bodies becoming tough enough to endure the strain of a 50x boost as if it were nothing and being in Super Saiyan for so long it felt like their natural state -- so rather than their Super Saiyan multiplier going up, their base form just got a lot stronger.

And is this the same for Mastered Super Saiyan 2 and Mastered Super Saiyan 3 and Mastered Super Saiyan Blue?

I don't think we've ever really seen a Mastered Super Saiyan 3, have we?

I suppose "Mastered Super Saiyan 2" could be either Vegeta's "mutated" rage-boost SSj2 or the stronger SSj2 that Trunks uses in Super? In either of those cases, it seems like there was an actual power boost involved, so I guess they're something more like a "Super Saiyan 2, Grade 2" but without any of the downsides.

In any case, there's no way of knowing exactly what the power boost for the upgraded SSj2s or Mastered/Complete Super Saiyan Blue would be, since Super hasn't given us any numbers for multipliers at all. The god forms in particular are just so much stronger than base forms and regular Super Saiyan that it's hard to even come up with a solid guess as to how much stronger they make their users.

[ekrolo2]

Seth the Programmer did a video about this a while back, according to a Spanish guide called El Manga Legendario, Grade 4 increases the multiplier to either x500-1000 Base power. Toei apparently approved it but it does contradict the Daizenshuu (I think) making it a case of whichever source you want to pick as being right over another.

[Desassina]

It's whatever you want it to be. Find the middle ground between what Toriyama wanted, the guides documented, and the story portrayed. Make an effort to justify your choices, and it could be taken as valid, except by those wanking to an arbitrary number. Reasons for it not to be 50x include: Goku powering up towards half of his full power in front of Korin from vanilla SSJ and then all the way up against Cell; SSJ2 being documented as 100x when it grew towards the level of SSJ3; the Blue form ranging from its full power down to less than 10% when Vegeta was up against Hit. Ultimately, if only for the power level lists, and since battle powers didn't show up after Freeza's arc, then shooting for consistency is your best bet, instead of getting worked up over a fan construct. Here's what I think:

In the Freeza arc...

1. Goku was brought to the level of SSJ, with an increase that had to surpass Kaioken, but lowered the closer he got to its threshold.
2. Once he got stretched to accomplish that level, his base might have increased from its previous power, now ranging up to Super Saiyan.
3. When the distance between base and SSJ shortens, it normalizes as a 10 fold increase before their full power, with more room for the Grades.

In the Cell arc...

1. Since Goku has Super Saiyan, he doesn't need Kaioken or he simply can't use both, so the goal is to improve SSJ past its vanilla state.
2. Vegeta and Trunks used the Grades as shortcuts, but Cell showcased them when his full power was available, with Gohan going past the latter.
3. Due to Goku having peaked with SSJ, when Gohan's was merely another state before SSJ2, the full power of the former is not the same thing as the latter.

And now for the list...

Base: 1
SSJ: 10
Grade II: 20
Grade III: 80
Full Power: 100
SSJ2: 200

[PFM18]

Seth the Programmer did a video about this a while back, according to a Spanish guide called El Manga Legendario, Grade 4 increases the multiplier to either x500-1000 Base power. Toei apparently approved it but it does contradict the Daizenshuu (I think) making it a case of whichever source you want to pick as being right over another.

The Legendario does not state that it increases Base power by 500-1000x. He derived this from the fact that the Legendario says that Trunks=10x Vegeta. From that he deduced that Grade 3=10x Grade 2 and since it apparently seemed to order them from weakest to strongest he assumed that Grade 4 must be stronger than Grade 3 and therefore, 500+ times your base form.

So basically, Seth the Programmer is horrendously confused and you should never listen to him.

[dragon boss z]

It's still 50x. Just less strain on the body

I agree with this. The point was that trying to boost the multiplier wasn't a good idea (that's what Trunks and Vegeta tried), but instead Goku just completely got used to the regular ssj form, not increasing them multiplier, but having complete control over the form itself.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

10x, just like it has always been after Namek.

[Borros]

SSJ with a boost x10 is impossible because the following demonstration proves it :

KKX = Base + BoostKK × X
Now, we know that Goku KK20 = Freezer 50% and Goku SSJ1> Goku 100%.
So we logically deduce that Goku SSJ1> 2 × Goku KK20.
In other words: Goku SSJ1> 2 × (Base + BoostKK × 20)
If the SSJ1 level is 10 times the base level, it gives:
10 × Base> 2 × (Base + BoostKK × 20)
Either: 10 × Base> 2 × Base + 2 × BoostKK × 20 = 2 × Base + 40 × BoostKK
Either: 10 × Base-2 × Base> 2 × Base + 40 × BoostKK-2 × Base
Either: 8 × Base> 40 × BoostKK
Either: 1/8 × 8 × Base> 1/8 × 40 × BoostKK
Either: Base> 5 × BoostKK or BoostKK <Base / 5

So, in the case where a Kaioken boost would be added to the base level, it would mean that the level of this boost would be less than one-fifth of the base level.

Let's go back to the Saiyan saga.
We know that Vegeta = 18000, and that Goku KK2 <Vegeta.
We know that Goku KK3 makes Bulma's Scouter farther than 21,000.
So :
Goku KK2 <18000
Goku KK3> 21000

In other words :
Base + BoostKK × 2 <18000
Base + BoostKK × 3> 21000

Is :
BoostKK × 2 <18000-Base
BoostKK × 3> 21000-Base

Is :
BoostKK <(18000-Base) / 2
BoostKK> (21000-Base) / 3

In other words :
(21000-Base) / 3 <BoostKK <(18000-Base) / 2
So :
(21000-Base) / 3 <(18000-Base) / 2
<=> 3 × 2 × ((21000-Base) / 3) <3 × 2 × ((18000-Base) / 2)
<=> 2 × (21000-Base) <3 × (18000-Base)
<=> 2 × 21000-2 × Base <3 × 18000-3 × Base
<=> 42000-2 × Base <54000-3 × Base
<=> 42000-2 × Base + 2 × Base <54000-3 × Base + 2 × Base
<=> 42000 <54000-Base
<=> 54000-Base-54000> 42000-54000
<=> -Base> 42000-54000
<=> -Base> -12000
<=> Base <12000

So we determined the basic level that would be required for Goku to be both less than 18000 in KK2 and greater than 21000 in KK3: Goku base must be less than 12000 units. So far, nothing inconsistent.

Now, we will assume that the SSJ1 = 10 × Base and therefore, as demonstrated, only Base/5> BoostKK
So: Base / 5 × 3> BoostKK × 3
So: Base + Base / 5 × 3> Base + BoostKK × 3
Now, as seen previously: Base + BoostKK × 3> 21000
Where: Base + Base / 5 × 3> 21000
<=> 8/5 × Base> 21000
<=> Base> 21000 × 5/8
<=> Base> 13125

In short, to check at once that Goku KK2 <18000, Goku KK3> 21000 and Goku SSJ1 = 10 × Base, that would imply in our case that Goku should have more than 13125 and less than 12000, which is impossible.

So Goku SSJ1 can not be = 10 × Base in the case we treat. He can not either in the case where the Kaioken is a force multiplier.

[Tectorman]

Quoting myself from the last time I saw this topic come up (simply because I think I got all my salient points arranged more cohesively here than at any other time):

Why wouldn't Grade 4 have a higher boost than Grade 1? What is there that disregards this point? Grade 4 removes stamina issues and strain, no arguing that. But what is there that disregards the "higher boost" point?

Mainly how SS Grade 4 isn't treated as a fundamentally different kind of form from regular SS; far from it. It's treated from that point on as basically regular SS, with SS2 being a follow-up to it acting as SS1 as a whole.

By removing the stamina strain, you free up energy that would've been wasted due to the drain on your body for combat, allowing you to put out more of your full-power and letting you fight harder; doing this also means that one can make greater gains from training, as gaining full control over the regular Super Saiyan form allows you to train harder in a higher state of power.

See, that's how I've always thought of it, except I do think it results in G4 being a larger effective boost than G1 (emphasis on "effective"). When Goku and Gohan decide to focus on SSJ as opposed to the Grade forms, his cited reason is to get rid of a so-called "restless feeling" with the intention of making SSJ as easy as their natural states.

I liken that to Mystique from X-Men First Class. During the training montage, we see her appearing human and lifting a barbell. Magneto gets onto her for dividing her focus. "If you're concentrating on looking human, then you're only half paying attention to the task at hand." He then drops the weight on her, she goes back to her natural form, and she catches the weights with much less difficulty than she had been showing before.

Translating that to DBZ, G1 is them using SSJ, but having to concentrate on maintaining the transformation. The transformation itself is a x50 boost, just like it always is, but the fact that they can't maintain the transformation without concentrating on it means they don't get the benefit of the full x50, but only x30 (well, x30-ish; I think it needs to be a better boost than the Kaioken x20, but it can really be anywhere in that x20 to x50 range; I picked x30 just for ease of use). So G1 is a x50 boost, but it's a x50 boost with a x3/5 drain due to them having to actively maintain the form. G4 is still only x50, but they don't have to consciously maintain the form, so there's no x3/5 drain.

"But what about Namek? Didn't he go from 3 million to 150 million?" Yes, he did. And that is a x50 boost. BUT, he wasn't using SSJ at will. SSJ occurs when the Saiyan has a pure heart awakened by pure rage, and Goku had just witnessed Krillin being killed. So he wasn't doing any kind of concentrating to maintain the form, because he didn't need to; Goku was already as genuinely angry as he needed to be. A "Grade 0", if you will, a form with a x50 boost, just like always, but no drain from concentrating. It's when he's learning how to use SSJ on Yardrat that the "concentrating drain" comes into play.

[thesilentofficial]

I personally have MSSJ at a x60. Stronger than a SSJ but not too strong. Essentially just fixes the stamina issue.

I also believe Mastered SSJ stacks so SSJ2 would be x2 of 60 instead of 50.

SSJ - x50
MSSJ - x60
SSJ2 - x120
SSJ3 - x480