Future Trunks Timeline in Android arc could have been saved if Goku took actions from otherworld?

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Re: Future Trunks Timeline in Android arc could have been saved if Goku took actions from otherworld?

Post by Kokonoe » Mon Aug 06, 2018 1:14 pm

Honestly? I think Goku dying of natural causes = not retaining his body makes sense to me.

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Re: Future Trunks Timeline in Android arc could have been saved if Goku took actions from otherworld?

Post by Ripper 30 » Mon Aug 06, 2018 1:23 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:
Ripper 30 wrote:But these all are assumptions on our part since they are not shown which means we are made to assume that they can't receive help from otherworld. also you are forgetting that people may not always reach they correct destination, remember how Kuririn never even reached Kaio's planet in Namek Arc ? even though he is as much eligible as his friends to train with Kaio so it's not like there is a guarantee that they will always reach the correct place. also, Trunks said in in Chapter 357 when they all are carrying Goku in the ship and Yamcha is driving it, that everything in main timeline was happening differently than his own timeline. like Timing of Goku's disease, Android 16 being absent in his Timeline, androids being much stronger in present timeline as well. so again we can't assume that same things will happen in his Timeline too.
I know we're meant to assume something keeps them from happening, the point of my various rambles is that there is no assumptions I've seen here or anywhere else that feels organic and doesn't rely on arbitrary bullshit or bad characterization to have these events happen. The Krillin situation honestly doesn't make much sense to me, Chiaotzu gets blown up too but for some reason Krillin doesn't have his body in the afterlife? Regardless, the others would keep it by default as evidenced by what happens to Goku when he dies against Cell.

that was because Kami was responsible for somehow arranging Chaozu's body which isn't the case with Kuririn because unlike Kuririn's case, Chaozu and Kami both were in Heaven. You can still have a halo but not be considered a body. Like Kuririn in the Namek arc or Vegeta in the Boo arc. Vegeta in the Boo arc and Goku in the Saiyan arcs weren't given their bodies automatically. also, right after Cell death scene Goku even talked about not being able to see Cell's soul which again proves my point. Goku only claimed that he got his body only when he asked his friends not wish him back and he himself said that it was was because of him saving the planet. When Vegeta died against Boo, Enma had to give him his body back. You don't automatically get your body back when you die. same with Goku when he died against Cell
Enma making a fuss or not, making a fuss isn't the point. Its whether Goku can keep his body or not, and then actually being able to go to Earth. No one is debating whether Enma will give Goku his body back or not.

The main thing which s preventing Kaio from contacting from contacting New Namek is his own laziness. When Goku in the Androids arc went to go visit Kaio to find Dende, Kaio himself said he can't always be watching the same planet over and over and even even shouted at Goku.


Again, no one is talking about this or debating this. But Enma isn't a close friend of Goku's, nor is he shown to be like that in the manga.



ekrolo2 wrote:The time travel explanation never works for me, this is sort of outside the point but the rules of time travel in DB are some of the stupidest one's I've ever seen. How the hell does Future Trunks killing Cold & Freeza in the middle of a wasteland, an event Doctor Gero has NO IDEA HAPPENS to cause the creation of more powerful Androids! How does that work? You could just say it's a butterlfy theory but what's the butterfly effect?! There's no tangible throughline of change that happens because of this, the Androids are just more powerful just because instead of having say Gero learn what an SS is thanks to Trunks vs Freeza. That would make sense but he doesn't, he just makes the Androids stronger because of reasons.

i mean if you don't have a problem with Yamcha getting Raditz Tier in battle vs Saiyans then i don't see what's the problem here. It does make sense though, Gero outfitted them with infinite amount of stamina and even later on, not Kamicollo could defeat No.17 since he too was outclassed in terms of stamina even though they were equal. Super saiyan were shit after trunks killed Freeza and his dad. No.17 and No.18 aren't ''Humans'' there were ''Artficial'' that's the key word, the main reason for Freeza's defeat against Goku was stamina only.
Ripper 30 wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote: I meant teleporting from living World to Spirit World without anyone's help. he did it in Saiyan Arc because of Kami and in Boo Arc, Baba escorted her till that place before he started moving. Kaio planet is bit different since it's actually a planet far away but spirit world is way different, it's the place where one can only arrive after being dead.
Kaio's planet isn't different, it's in the realm of the dead, Goku's teleportation is just broken enough to transfer him over there.
again, Goku never teleported as a dead person from otherworld to living world.
Kokonoe wrote: Honestly? I think Goku dying of natural causes = not retaining his body makes sense to me.
that's my point too. i don't know where this assumption of "Goku will automatically retain his body after dying in future timeline" comes in.
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Re: Future Trunks Timeline in Android arc could have been saved if Goku took actions from otherworld?

Post by Ssjcell » Mon Aug 06, 2018 1:42 pm

1.saved the planet from piccolo
2.saved the planet from radditz
3. Saved the planet from Vegeta and nappa
4. Saved planet namek from frieza
5. Saved the universe from frieza and king cold as well as the planet
That's a pretty good resume for keeping your body, I can't understand someone not thinking he should keep his body. If Goku doesn't get his body who does? That part of the argument isn't even a discussion imo
now for the is baba still alive part probably imo
Is Goku strong enough to defeat the Android's 10 years after he dies probably (definitely)
Should it be his responsibility to save trunks world and avenge his son maybe
Would Goku care about all of this I think so
In conclusion should Goku have tried to help yes

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Re: Future Trunks Timeline in Android arc could have been saved if Goku took actions from otherworld?

Post by Ripper 30 » Mon Aug 06, 2018 2:24 pm

Ssjcell wrote:1.saved the planet from piccolo
2.saved the planet from radditz
3. Saved the planet from Vegeta and nappa
4. Saved planet namek from frieza
5. Saved the universe from frieza and king cold as well as the planet
That's a pretty good resume for keeping your body, I can't understand someone not thinking he should keep his body. If Goku doesn't get his body who does? That part of the argument isn't even a discussion imo
now for the is baba still alive part probably imo
Is Goku strong enough to defeat the Android's 10 years after he dies probably (definitely)
Should it be his responsibility to save trunks world and avenge his son maybe
Would Goku care about all of this I think so
In conclusion should Goku have tried to help yes
again this all is assumption, he already had a good resume in Saiyan Arc by defeating Piccolo Daimao and helping many people but that still doesn't guarantee him the body. Goku in Cell arc got his body because of the sacrifice and then King Enma allows him to keep it due to that and train. in Future Timeline, we can't judge off speculation neither Goku was implied to have kept his body nor baba is shown alive.
even if he did kept it, he will obviously move on to otherworld and the androids attack happens like 6 months later which is enough for Goku to stop caring about what's happening in living world and all this is based on the assumption that Goku kept his body.
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Re: Future Trunks Timeline in Android arc could have been saved if Goku took actions from otherworld?

Post by ekrolo2 » Mon Aug 06, 2018 3:18 pm

Ripper 30 wrote:that was because Kami was responsible for somehow arranging Chaozu's body which isn't the case with Kuririn because unlike Kuririn's case, Chaozu and Kami both were in Heaven. You can still have a halo but not be considered a body. Like Kuririn in the Namek arc or Vegeta in the Boo arc. Vegeta in the Boo arc and Goku in the Saiyan arcs weren't given their bodies automatically. also, right after Cell death scene Goku even talked about not being able to see Cell's soul which again proves my point. Goku only claimed that he got his body only when he asked his friends not wish him back and he himself said that it was was because of him saving the planet. When Vegeta died against Boo, Enma had to give him his body back. You don't automatically get your body back when you die. same with Goku when he died against Cell
You get it automatically if you've already been deemed worthy of the honor of keeping it which is what I was talking about and what happens when Goku instantly keeps his after Cell blows them all up.

Ripper 30 wrote:The main thing which s preventing Kaio from contacting from contacting New Namek is his own laziness. When Goku in the Androids arc went to go visit Kaio to find Dende, Kaio himself said he can't always be watching the same planet over and over and even even shouted at Goku.


Again, no one is talking about this or debating this. But Enma isn't a close friend of Goku's, nor is he shown to be like that in the manga.
So, Kaio is too lazy to help Goku out now when he asks for it but he wasn't lazy when it came to helping everyone get to Namek just because he's Goku's friend and wants to help him? I'm sorry but you just prove my point: Kaio has to become an asshole for him not to want to help people he was previously fine with helping him out of nothing but friendship.
ekrolo2 wrote:i mean if you don't have a problem with Yamcha getting Raditz Tier in battle vs Saiyans then i don't see what's the problem here. It does make sense though, Gero outfitted them with infinite amount of stamina and even later on, not Kamicollo could defeat No.17 since he too was outclassed in terms of stamina even though they were equal. Super saiyan were shit after trunks killed Freeza and his dad. No.17 and No.18 aren't ''Humans'' there were ''Artficial'' that's the key word, the main reason for Freeza's defeat against Goku was stamina only
Yamcha trained with Tenshinhan, Krillin, Chiaozu, Popo and apparently under Kami for almost a year. He has a good explanation for getting that strong, I don't even know why you tout this as an example of non sense power increases when Piccolo in the very same arc is a far better one. It also doesn't make sense, at all. Future Trunks who Gero doesn't know, fights two other people Gero doesn't know and this even that is COMPLETELY divorced from him makes him create versions of 18 and 17 who are stronger than their future counterparts because vague bullshit meant to raise the stakes. It's not a good explanation, at all, anywhere.
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Re: Future Trunks Timeline in Android arc could have been saved if Goku took actions from otherworld?

Post by Ripper 30 » Mon Aug 06, 2018 6:25 pm

ekrolo2 wrote: You get it automatically if you've already been deemed worthy of the honor of keeping it which is what I was talking about and what happens when Goku instantly keeps his after Cell blows them all up.


no, he didn't retained his body. it was clearly the soul that's why they were all talking about Cell's soul too. as i already said that the ones who didn't kept their body were also shown with the halo like Vegeta in Boo Arc or Kuririn in Namek Arc, it was never mentioned about being deemed worthy of the honor of keeping body. he was clearly a soul in that part.
ekrolo2 wrote: So, Kaio is too lazy to help Goku out now when he asks for it but he wasn't lazy when it came to helping everyone get to Namek just because he's Goku's friend and wants to help him? I'm sorry but you just prove my point: Kaio has to become an asshole for him not to want to help people he was previously fine with helping him out of nothing but friendship.
Namek situation was different but the androids attack happened like years after Freeza so the time gap is much more than the one between Saiyan and Freeza arc. why didn't he bothered to warn Z warriors about mecha freeza return if he cared for them so much?
ekrolo2 wrote: Yamcha trained with Tenshinhan, Krillin, Chiaozu, Popo and apparently under Kami for almost a year. He has a good explanation for getting that strong, I don't even know why you tout this as an example of non sense power increases when Piccolo in the very same arc is a far better one. It also doesn't make sense, at all. Future Trunks who Gero doesn't know, fights two other people Gero doesn't know and this even that is COMPLETELY divorced from him makes him create versions of 18 and 17 who are stronger than their future counterparts because vague bullshit meant to raise the stakes. It's not a good explanation, at all, anywhere.


again, if you can somehow believe Cell to be stronger than Ssj who is also a man made monster then i dont know why you can't believe the same with androids, they had infinite supply for a reason. both vegeta and Piccolo weren't able to overpower them because of stamina issue more than anything else.
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Re: Future Trunks Timeline in Android arc could have been saved if Goku took actions from otherworld?

Post by ekrolo2 » Mon Aug 06, 2018 6:29 pm

Ripper 30 wrote:again, if you can somehow believe Cell to be stronger than Ssj who is also a man made monster then i dont know why you can't believe the same with androids, they had infinite supply for a reason. both vegeta and Piccolo weren't able to overpower them because of stamina issue more than anything else.
I have a problem with the idea of Doctor Gero in the main timeline creating stronger versions of 17 and 18 based on events that had nothing to do with him. Why and how does Future Trunks fighting Freeza and King Cold in the middle of nowhere makes 17 and 18 stronger? Why? There is no connective tissue between these events, it just happens because Toriyama wants to up the stakes which is fine in theory but in practice doesn't work.
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Re: Future Trunks Timeline in Android arc could have been saved if Goku took actions from otherworld?

Post by Ripper 30 » Mon Aug 06, 2018 7:08 pm

ekrolo2 wrote: You get it automatically if you've already been deemed worthy of the honor of keeping it which is what I was talking about and what happens when Goku instantly keeps his after Cell blows them all up.


no, he didn't retained his body. it was clearly the soul that's why they were all talking about Cell's soul too. as i already said that the ones who didn't kept their body were also shown with the halo like Vegeta in Boo Arc or Kuririn in Namek Arc, it was never mentioned about being deemed worthy of the honor of keeping body. he was clearly a soul in that part.
ekrolo2 wrote: So, Kaio is too lazy to help Goku out now when he asks for it but he wasn't lazy when it came to helping everyone get to Namek just because he's Goku's friend and wants to help him? I'm sorry but you just prove my point: Kaio has to become an asshole for him not to want to help people he was previously fine with helping him out of nothing but friendship.
Namek situation was different but the androids attack happened like years after Freeza so the time gap is much more than the one between Saiyan and Freeza arc. why didn't he bothered to warn Z warriors about mecha freeza return if he cared for them so much?
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Re: Future Trunks Timeline in Android arc could have been saved if Goku took actions from otherworld?

Post by ekrolo2 » Mon Aug 06, 2018 7:22 pm

Ripper 30 wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote: You get it automatically if you've already been deemed worthy of the honor of keeping it which is what I was talking about and what happens when Goku instantly keeps his after Cell blows them all up.


no, he didn't retained his body. it was clearly the soul that's why they were all talking about Cell's soul too. as i already said that the ones who didn't kept their body were also shown with the halo like Vegeta in Boo Arc or Kuririn in Namek Arc, it was never mentioned about being deemed worthy of the honor of keeping body. he was clearly a soul in that part.
Goku has a halo when he retains his body in the afterlife, you can see it all throughout the Saiyan and Boo arcs. The difference between a person who's a soul and one who keeps their body is that a soul looks like a floating cloud whereas a person with a body has a body.
ekrolo2 wrote: Namek situation was different but the androids attack happened like years after Freeza so the time gap is much more than the one between Saiyan and Freeza arc. why didn't he bothered to warn Z warriors about mecha freeza return if he cared for them so much?
[/quote]
The Namek situation is him offering them help while he's observing the Earth already, he was keeping track of Goku vs Vegeta the whole way through. Why didn't he warn them about Freeza? Because he thought Freeza was dead? He sensed Goku "die" on Namek too, it's only natural he'd assume Freeza bought the farm. Once again, we're banging heads against a point I'd already cited before: unless you just arbitrarily ignore facts and previous characterization, the apocalyptic Future Trunks timeline can't happen. You're not gonna make me budge on this point short of providing an answer that doesn't hinge on either of the aforementioned cop-outs.
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Re: Future Trunks Timeline in Android arc could have been saved if Goku took actions from otherworld?

Post by Ripper 30 » Tue Aug 07, 2018 1:30 am

ekrolo2 wrote: Goku has a halo when he retains his body in the afterlife, you can see it all throughout the Saiyan and Boo arcs. The difference between a person who's a soul and one who keeps their body is that a soul looks like a floating cloud whereas a person with a body has a body.
no, that's his soul. he only gets to keep his body after he tells his friend about not wishing him back "I am not being a martyr. they are going to give me special treatment because I saved the earth. Regular people and bad guys turn to Spirit but I get to keep my body" that clearly means earlier on he wasn't a body otherwise he would have said that he retained his body. [/quote]
ekrolo2 wrote:
The Namek situation is him offering them help while he's observing the Earth already, he was keeping track of Goku vs Vegeta the whole way through. Why didn't he warn them about Freeza? Because he thought Freeza was dead? He sensed Goku "die" on Namek too, it's only natural he'd assume Freeza bought the farm. Once again, we're banging heads against a point I'd already cited before: unless you just arbitrarily ignore facts and previous characterization, the apocalyptic Future Trunks timeline can't happen. You're not gonna make me budge on this point short of providing an answer that doesn't hinge on either of the aforementioned cop-outs.
same can be said for situation here. Goku died 6 Months before Android attack which gives him even more of a reason to not care much for earth and he has been shown to be ignorant seeing how bigger threat cell was compared to freeza still he is fine with sleeping.
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Re: Future Trunks Timeline in Android arc could have been saved if Goku took actions from otherworld?

Post by ekrolo2 » Tue Aug 07, 2018 8:47 am

Ripper 30 wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote: Goku has a halo when he retains his body in the afterlife, you can see it all throughout the Saiyan and Boo arcs. The difference between a person who's a soul and one who keeps their body is that a soul looks like a floating cloud whereas a person with a body has a body.
no, that's his soul. he only gets to keep his body after he tells his friend about not wishing him back "I am not being a martyr. they are going to give me special treatment because I saved the earth. Regular people and bad guys turn to Spirit but I get to keep my body" that clearly means earlier on he wasn't a body otherwise he would have said that he retained his body.

Unless Toriyama retconed what souls look like, Goku, Kaio and Bubbles should just look like floating clouds in the after life with no bodies at all. That's why I don't think they're souls, but already have physical forms.
Ripper 30 wrote:same can be said for situation here. Goku died 6 Months before Android attack which gives him even more of a reason to not care much for earth and he has been shown to be ignorant seeing how bigger threat cell was compared to freeza still he is fine with sleeping.
So basically what I already said is your explanation, Goku has to not care about the Earth suddenly even if everyone appeared right in front of him in the afterlife all of a sudden and said they're all dead and nobody but Gohan is left to save it. That's seriously out of character, I don't buy it. Also, Goku didn't "sleep" when Cell was around as a threat, he knew that him and Gohan punching each other for another year wouldn't have made a difference by itself to overcome him.
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Re: Future Trunks Timeline in Android arc could have been saved if Goku took actions from otherworld?

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:11 am

Goku couldn't take action because he's gone.

Also, fuck what the Super manga says. That same manga retconned the fucking Cell Junior into being alive even though we clearly saw them being completely mutilated by Gohan.
fadeddreams5 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
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I always side eye the people who say "Now my kids/today's kids can experience what I did as a child!" Nigga, who gives a fuck about your childhood? You're an adult now and it was at least 15 years ago. Let the kids have their own experience instead of picking at a corpse.

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Re: Future Trunks Timeline in Android arc could have been saved if Goku took actions from otherworld?

Post by Ripper 30 » Sat Aug 11, 2018 4:33 pm

DBZAOTA482 wrote:Goku couldn't take action because he's gone.

Also, fuck what the Super manga says. That same manga retconned the fucking Cell Junior into being alive even though we clearly saw them being completely mutilated by Gohan.
in which chapter do we see cell junior?
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Re: Future Trunks Timeline in Android arc could have been saved if Goku took actions from otherworld?

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Sat Aug 11, 2018 5:05 pm

Ripper 30 wrote:
DBZAOTA482 wrote:Goku couldn't take action because he's gone.

Also, fuck what the Super manga says. That same manga retconned the fucking Cell Junior into being alive even though we clearly saw them being completely mutilated by Gohan.
in which chapter do we see cell junior?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGkuzihZmdY

[spoiler]Lol how can anyone justify Super's "writing" anymore?[/spoiler]
fadeddreams5 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
jjgp1112 wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:31 am I'm just about done with the concept of reboots and making shows that were products of their time and impactful "new and sexy" and in line with modern tastes and sensibilities. Let stuff stay in their era and give today's kids their own shit to watch.

I always side eye the people who say "Now my kids/today's kids can experience what I did as a child!" Nigga, who gives a fuck about your childhood? You're an adult now and it was at least 15 years ago. Let the kids have their own experience instead of picking at a corpse.

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Re: Future Trunks Timeline in Android arc could have been saved if Goku took actions from otherworld?

Post by Ripper 30 » Tue Oct 16, 2018 6:58 am

ekrolo2 wrote:Unless Toriyama retconed what souls look like, Goku, Kaio and Bubbles should just look like floating clouds in the after life with no bodies at all. That's why I don't think they're souls, but already have physical forms.
again, Goku and Kaio were supposed to be shown in personified way. Goku that's why says "He will" get the body and what you're saying doesn't make sense. Characters don't automatically retain a body when they die but are given later on. that's why Goku says he doesn't See cell's Soul which makes it even clearer.


ekrolo2 wrote:So basically what I already said is your explanation, Goku has to not care about the Earth suddenly even if everyone appeared right in front of him in the afterlife all of a sudden and said they're all dead and nobody but Gohan is left to save it. That's seriously out of character, I don't buy it. Also, Goku didn't "sleep" when Cell was around as a threat, he knew that him and Gohan punching each other for another year wouldn't have made a difference by itself to overcome him.
you're making a headcanon. how do you know everyone will appear before him? how do you guess that he necessarily kept a body? how do you guess that he was well aware of everything? how do you guess that the Z warriors didn't died twice after getting their bodies for one day visits and perish completely? these all are based on speculation and nothing else. we are told so little that other than speculation we can't say anything about the situation. even if you assume that Goku already got a body after Cell explosion that doesn't really mean that he may get one in Future Timeline and there is no reason for Z Fighters to be optimistic and approach Goku because in future they don't know things like a form beyond Super Saiyan since it was only told by present goku with his idea of RoSaT. in Future, they see Vegeta get killed in front of them who was the strongest and enough of a proof for them that it's hopeless and all they can count on is Future Trunks and Gohan. what would they get after getting a body and training at Kaio? they have no need, even if they magically get revived they will die again so i think other than speculation there is no reason to force the argument of "Bad writing" in it when we are only mentioned as much as we require.
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Kaiza_Toshiyuki
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Re: Future Trunks Timeline in Android arc could have been saved if Goku took actions from otherworld?

Post by Kaiza_Toshiyuki » Tue Oct 16, 2018 9:12 am

OhHiRenan wrote:Goku definitely did not keep his body after dying in Trunks’ timeline nor did anyone else.

The only reason Goku keeps his body is because Kami pulls strings the first time around and he sacrificed himself against Cell the second.

Dying in Dragon Ball doesn’t guarantee you a body in the afterlife. Goku, along with the rest of the main cast, likely just became souls for reincarnation.

Also, Kaio would absolutely be indifferent to Earth. He had no idea what was happening during the main timeline’s Cell arc for the most part. He watches over more planets than just Earth.
Then Explain Why Grandpa Gohan Got to keep his body?

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Re: Future Trunks Timeline in Android arc could have been saved if Goku took actions from otherworld?

Post by Ripper 30 » Tue Oct 16, 2018 11:01 am

Kaiza_Toshiyuki wrote:
OhHiRenan wrote:Goku definitely did not keep his body after dying in Trunks’ timeline nor did anyone else.

The only reason Goku keeps his body is because Kami pulls strings the first time around and he sacrificed himself against Cell the second.

Dying in Dragon Ball doesn’t guarantee you a body in the afterlife. Goku, along with the rest of the main cast, likely just became souls for reincarnation.

Also, Kaio would absolutely be indifferent to Earth. He had no idea what was happening during the main timeline’s Cell arc for the most part. He watches over more planets than just Earth.
Then Explain Why Grandpa Gohan Got to keep his body?
he was only given a body for one day visit. notice how he says how he enjoyed time with Women "Souls", which imply that he never really got a body.
I prefer Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z, DB/Z/GT Movies, Dragon Ball Super and Dragon Ball GT in Japanese.
For DBZ Kai and two new Movies I like both Dub and Sub. I Prefer Shunsuke Kikuchi Soundtracks over All other Composers.
My MAL profile : https://myanimelist.net/profile/Ripper_30

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Re: Future Trunks Timeline in Android arc could have been saved if Goku took actions from otherworld?

Post by Ssjcell » Thu Oct 18, 2018 5:13 pm

I guess the real question is how strong would have Goku become in other world after 16 years of training assuming baba can bring him over for a day or half a day something like that

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