Future Trunks Timeline in Android arc could have been saved if Goku took actions from otherworld?

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Future Trunks Timeline in Android arc could have been saved if Goku took actions from otherworld?

Post by Ripper 30 » Mon Jul 23, 2018 4:06 pm

since in Boo Arc it was shown that Goku had retained his body and came to earth to fight in 25th Tenka'ichi Budokai. but if Goku kept his body in Future Trunks timeline after dying due to the heart virus, the question aries that why on Earth did Goku never contacted Future Gohan from Other World to fight the future androids and also, Why didn't he asked for a day back on Earth to help deal with the androids after being dead.

Why didnt ANY of the good guys do that? seeing how afterlife works in Dragon Ball makes this arc impossible.

If Gohan was contacted about the Room of Spirit and Time by Goku, why on Earth didn't he tell him to try and reach something further beyond or provide some idea to save earth from Androids?

what do you think? do you think it's a big plothole that Toriyama forgot about or it can be explained?
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Re: Future Trunks Timeline in Android arc could have been saved if Goku took actions from otherworld?

Post by ekrolo2 » Mon Jul 23, 2018 4:13 pm

The answer is yes, he and the other fighters absolutely could have not only helped but straight up prevented the Androids from being a threat for long. But they don't because Toriyama's flimsy plot can't happen.
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Re: Future Trunks Timeline in Android arc could have been saved if Goku took actions from otherworld?

Post by Ripper 30 » Mon Jul 23, 2018 6:00 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:The answer is yes, he and the other fighters absolutely could have not only helped but straight up prevented the Androids from being a threat for long. But they don't because Toriyama's flimsy plot can't happen.
wait, what? how can they help or prevent it? there are no Dragon Balls on earth, no Baba for bringing them back for one day, how can they help them?
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Re: Future Trunks Timeline in Android arc could have been saved if Goku took actions from otherworld?

Post by Ssjcell » Mon Jul 23, 2018 7:34 pm

Yeah if there's no baba it's a moot point besides vegeta probably lost his body and Goku probably wouldn't want to use instant transmission because IDK he's a dick lol maybe if he was in the living world he would have the heart disease again. Goku definitely could have used instant transmission even though it was against the rules imo.

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Re: Future Trunks Timeline in Android arc could have been saved if Goku took actions from otherworld?

Post by Hellspawn28 » Mon Jul 23, 2018 7:41 pm

It is possible that #17 and #18 blew up Kami's lookout, so the Room of Spirit & Time can no longer be used. I also feel like they never return back to Earth for 24 hours for these reasons:

1. Lord Yama feels like that #17 and #18 are not a major threat and he only lets people return unless it's a major deal like with Buu and the Tournament of Power
2. Goku feels like he wants Gohan and Trunks to fight off #17 and #18 and believes the Earth would be better off in their hands.
3. Baba was probably killed off, so they won't have a way to return back to Earth.
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Re: Future Trunks Timeline in Android arc could have been saved if Goku took actions from otherworld?

Post by TheGreatness25 » Mon Jul 23, 2018 7:45 pm

I don't think that Goku could use his Instant Movement to go from Other World to the living world. Otherwise, he could have just done that and having a halo over his head wouldn't mean anything. If Baba isn't alive, or unable to really get in contact with Goku, that's useless.

Let's also not forget that the biggest difference between main timeline Goku and Trunks's timeline Goku is what main timeline Goku did against Cell. Add another one in the basket. That could be why Goku was allowed to come back for the Tenkaichi Budokai.

I understand that Goku could have used Kaio to communicate with Gohan and whatnot, but really, in the grand scheme of things, the Kaios, Enma, all of the Other World players, really shouldn't have a dog in the fight and need to be completely neutral with what happens to Earth. It's not like they would care to send over whomever to save the world.

I mean in some weird way, Goku, Gohan, Kurilin, and all of their friends would be hanging out in Other World.

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Re: Future Trunks Timeline in Android arc could have been saved if Goku took actions from otherworld?

Post by Ssjcell » Mon Jul 23, 2018 7:57 pm

TheGreatness25 wrote:I don't think that Goku could use his Instant Movement to go from Other World to the living world. Otherwise, he could have just done that and having a halo over his head wouldn't mean anything. If Baba isn't alive, or unable to really get in contact with Goku, that's useless.

Let's also not forget that the biggest difference between main timeline Goku and Trunks's timeline Goku is what main timeline Goku did against Cell. Add another one in the basket. That could be why Goku was allowed to come back for the Tenkaichi Budokai.
I understand that Goku could have used Kaio to communicate with Gohan and whatnot, but really, in the grand scheme of things, the Kaios, Enma, all of the Other World players, really shouldn't have a dog in the fight and need to be completely neutral with what happens to Earth. It's not like they would care to send over whomever to save the world.

I mean in some weird way, Goku, Gohan, Kurilin, and all of their friends would be hanging out in Other World.
Well he did it in the Bojack movie and also used instant transmission to get from Earth to King Kai why couldn't he do it in reverse?

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Re: Future Trunks Timeline in Android arc could have been saved if Goku took actions from otherworld?

Post by TheGreatness25 » Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:40 pm

Ssjcell wrote:[spoiler]
TheGreatness25 wrote:I don't think that Goku could use his Instant Movement to go from Other World to the living world. Otherwise, he could have just done that and having a halo over his head wouldn't mean anything. If Baba isn't alive, or unable to really get in contact with Goku, that's useless.

Let's also not forget that the biggest difference between main timeline Goku and Trunks's timeline Goku is what main timeline Goku did against Cell. Add another one in the basket. That could be why Goku was allowed to come back for the Tenkaichi Budokai.
I understand that Goku could have used Kaio to communicate with Gohan and whatnot, but really, in the grand scheme of things, the Kaios, Enma, all of the Other World players, really shouldn't have a dog in the fight and need to be completely neutral with what happens to Earth. It's not like they would care to send over whomever to save the world.

I mean in some weird way, Goku, Gohan, Kurilin, and all of their friends would be hanging out in Other World.
[/spoiler]

Well he did it in the Bojack movie and also used instant transmission to get from Earth to King Kai why couldn't he do it in reverse?
Bojack doesn't count.

If Goku could use Instant Movement to go from Other World to the living world, it would kind of defeat the entire point of being dead, wouldn't it? If you need an in-universe head canon explanation, then Enma could have just taken away Goku's body and memories for such an action, but there's no way that he can do it. Otherwise, why didn't he just do that after dying against Cell and stay forever? Why did he listen to Baba and go back to Other World? Because he can't be in the living world unless he's allowed to be.

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Re: Future Trunks Timeline in Android arc could have been saved if Goku took actions from otherworld?

Post by Ssjcell » Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:44 pm

You could be right or Goku could be an indifferent dude

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Re: Future Trunks Timeline in Android arc could have been saved if Goku took actions from otherworld?

Post by Ripper 30 » Tue Jul 24, 2018 2:53 am

Are there any condition as to how a Character can keep his body in afterlife? is it something connected with dying a noble death or with a selfless action and saving the planet or anything like that since in one of the Side chapters by Toyotaro which was supervised by Toriyama it was shown that Future Goku retained his body in future timeline.
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Re: Future Trunks Timeline in Android arc could have been saved if Goku took actions from otherworld?

Post by ekrolo2 » Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:32 am

Ripper 30 wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:The answer is yes, he and the other fighters absolutely could have not only helped but straight up prevented the Androids from being a threat for long. But they don't because Toriyama's flimsy plot can't happen.
wait, what? how can they help or prevent it? there are no Dragon Balls on earth, no Baba for bringing them back for one day, how can they help them?
Why would Baba even be dead? She chills out in her home far away from all this malarkey. There's also Kaio who can communicate with people outside the after life, he can easily dial up New Namek and revive Piccolo, restore the Lookout and even revive Baba if we must (for some reason) assume she got killed too.
Hellspawn28 wrote:It is possible that #17 and #18 blew up Kami's lookout, so the Room of Spirit & Time can no longer be used. I also feel like they never return back to Earth for 24 hours for these reasons:

1. Lord Yama feels like that #17 and #18 are not a major threat and he only lets people return unless it's a major deal like with Buu and the Tournament of Power
2. Goku feels like he wants Gohan and Trunks to fight off #17 and #18 and believes the Earth would be better off in their hands.
3. Baba was probably killed off, so they won't have a way to return back to Earth.
1. That's unlikely as he lets Goku come back to Earth so he can participate in a regular tournament on Earth and hang out with his friends & family. He didn't know Majin Boo was going to show up and cause trouble.
2. Goku only does that in the Boo arc because he's got an actual back up in place with Gotenks to win, a guy he trained and knows can pull it off. The only reason it doesn't work is Fat Boo turning into Super Boo and a whole of other unforeseeable problems.
3. Which doesn't prevent Kaio from communicating with alive people, which he would do as I will explain below....
TheGreatness25 wrote:I understand that Goku could have used Kaio to communicate with Gohan and whatnot, but really, in the grand scheme of things, the Kaios, Enma, all of the Other World players, really shouldn't have a dog in the fight and need to be completely neutral with what happens to Earth. It's not like they would care to send over whomever to save the world..
No, Kaio wouldn't be indifferent. In the Saiyan Saga, he helps out Goku and his friends & family find a way to Namek solely because he wants to help them. There's no greater benefit to the universe here, he's not sending them to fight Freeza (he doesn't even know Freeza is going to be on Namek and when he does, he tells Goku to stay the fuck away from him), he's helping Goku out because he's his friend. Also, as I mentioned above, Enma lets Goku come back so he can dick around in the Tenkaichi Budokai, not to stop Boo, he'd let Goku go back for the Androids.

The matter is like this as I see it: everyone has to be an incompetent moron or an absolutely apathetic dick head for Future Trunks timeline to happen the way it does.
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Re: Future Trunks Timeline in Android arc could have been saved if Goku took actions from otherworld?

Post by OhHiRenan » Tue Jul 24, 2018 10:42 am

Goku definitely did not keep his body after dying in Trunks’ timeline nor did anyone else.

The only reason Goku keeps his body is because Kami pulls strings the first time around and he sacrificed himself against Cell the second.

Dying in Dragon Ball doesn’t guarantee you a body in the afterlife. Goku, along with the rest of the main cast, likely just became souls for reincarnation.

Also, Kaio would absolutely be indifferent to Earth. He had no idea what was happening during the main timeline’s Cell arc for the most part. He watches over more planets than just Earth.

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Re: Future Trunks Timeline in Android arc could have been saved if Goku took actions from otherworld?

Post by Ripper 30 » Tue Jul 24, 2018 2:28 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:
Ripper 30 wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:The answer is yes, he and the other fighters absolutely could have not only helped but straight up prevented the Androids from being a threat for long. But they don't because Toriyama's flimsy plot can't happen.
wait, what? how can they help or prevent it? there are no Dragon Balls on earth, no Baba for bringing them back for one day, how can they help them?
Why would Baba even be dead? She chills out in her home far away from all this malarkey. There's also Kaio who can communicate with people outside the after life, he can easily dial up New Namek and revive Piccolo, restore the Lookout and even revive Baba if we must (for some reason) assume she got killed too.
Hellspawn28 wrote:It is possible that #17 and #18 blew up Kami's lookout, so the Room of Spirit & Time can no longer be used. I also feel like they never return back to Earth for 24 hours for these reasons:

1. Lord Yama feels like that #17 and #18 are not a major threat and he only lets people return unless it's a major deal like with Buu and the Tournament of Power
2. Goku feels like he wants Gohan and Trunks to fight off #17 and #18 and believes the Earth would be better off in their hands.
3. Baba was probably killed off, so they won't have a way to return back to Earth.
1. That's unlikely as he lets Goku come back to Earth so he can participate in a regular tournament on Earth and hang out with his friends & family. He didn't know Majin Boo was going to show up and cause trouble.
2. Goku only does that in the Boo arc because he's got an actual back up in place with Gotenks to win, a guy he trained and knows can pull it off. The only reason it doesn't work is Fat Boo turning into Super Boo and a whole of other unforeseeable problems.
3. Which doesn't prevent Kaio from communicating with alive people, which he would do as I will explain below....
TheGreatness25 wrote:I understand that Goku could have used Kaio to communicate with Gohan and whatnot, but really, in the grand scheme of things, the Kaios, Enma, all of the Other World players, really shouldn't have a dog in the fight and need to be completely neutral with what happens to Earth. It's not like they would care to send over whomever to save the world..
No, Kaio wouldn't be indifferent. In the Saiyan Saga, he helps out Goku and his friends & family find a way to Namek solely because he wants to help them. There's no greater benefit to the universe here, he's not sending them to fight Freeza (he doesn't even know Freeza is going to be on Namek and when he does, he tells Goku to stay the fuck away from him), he's helping Goku out because he's his friend. Also, as I mentioned above, Enma lets Goku come back so he can dick around in the Tenkaichi Budokai, not to stop Boo, he'd let Goku go back for the Androids.

The matter is like this as I see it: everyone has to be an incompetent moron or an absolutely apathetic dick head for Future Trunks timeline to happen the way it does.

what i believe is,

Plot Hole: Something that goes against the logic established in the previous events

Not Plothole: A small unexplained event in the story

I don't think it's a plothole , I just think it's DB being DB

I don't think the believability of the arc was ruined because we don't know why Goku was being selfish and careless, is it dumb? maybe...

I also don't think it was as impossible situation because it was executed very well but again really dumb and not thought out properly.
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Re: Future Trunks Timeline in Android arc could have been saved if Goku took actions from otherworld?

Post by ekrolo2 » Tue Jul 24, 2018 2:41 pm

Ripper 30 wrote:what i believe is,

Plot Hole: Something that goes against the logic established in the previous events

Not Plothole: A small unexplained event in the story

I don't think it's a plothole , I just think it's DB being DB

I don't think the believability of the arc was ruined because we don't know why Goku was being selfish and careless, is it dumb? maybe...

I also don't think it was as impossible situation because it was executed very well but again really dumb and not thought out properly.
I'm aware the DB cast are far from the most competent bunch, but for Gods sake, when your narrative makes them straight up morons or incredibly apathetic then you're going against the characters entirely.

You're REALLY gonna tell me a group of people who'd travel a million mile long snake and go out to other planets to save their friends & family are just gonna do fuck all with a side of jack shit when Gohan is left the last man standing against two people who killed Super Saiyan Vegeta? No, I don't buy it, even going past the logical ways they can come back, it is NOT part of their characters to do this just because which is what it comes off as here: just because.
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Re: Future Trunks Timeline in Android arc could have been saved if Goku took actions from otherworld?

Post by Ripper 30 » Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:50 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:
Ripper 30 wrote:what i believe is,

Plot Hole: Something that goes against the logic established in the previous events

Not Plothole: A small unexplained event in the story

I don't think it's a plothole , I just think it's DB being DB

I don't think the believability of the arc was ruined because we don't know why Goku was being selfish and careless, is it dumb? maybe...

I also don't think it was as impossible situation because it was executed very well but again really dumb and not thought out properly.
I'm aware the DB cast are far from the most competent bunch, but for Gods sake, when your narrative makes them straight up morons or incredibly apathetic then you're going against the characters entirely.

You're REALLY gonna tell me a group of people who'd travel a million mile long snake and go out to other planets to save their friends & family are just gonna do fuck all with a side of jack shit when Gohan is left the last man standing against two people who killed Super Saiyan Vegeta? No, I don't buy it, even going past the logical ways they can come back, it is NOT part of their characters to do this just because which is what it comes off as here: just because.
it's definitely in the grey area where some people think it's a plothole whereas some don't. There are always moments in fiction where viewers say "why didn't they just" or "they should've just" done this/that.

Stories are not logical, their emotional.
A plothole is not "a solution that might have worked that the protagonists didn''t try" but instead an inconsistency in the story that prevent the story from working properly.

Why didn't every one just gang bang at Cell when they were fighting him?
It's because people prefer the amazing, holy shit moments rather than simple and boring ones which are 10 times more realistic.

I think it's a flaw of the arc rather than a plothole, a major flaw.

also, it was implied that everyone in Z fighters team is dead. the only reason Baba escaped Super Boo's Genocidal attacks was because she was with Goku into otherworld after his time ended and talking with Enma regarding Vegeta's body. there is no way she can be alive seeing how they imply that Karin is dead too.
again, it's mostly left Vague and the problem was it wasn't as well thought out or in detail and definitely an inconsistency in the story but not really that big plothole.
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Re: Future Trunks Timeline in Android arc could have been saved if Goku took actions from otherworld?

Post by ekrolo2 » Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:57 pm

Ripper 30 wrote:it's definitely in the grey area where some people think it's a plothole whereas some don't. There are always moments in fiction where viewers say "why didn't they just" or "they should've just" done this/that.

Stories are not logical, their emotional.
A plothole is not "a solution that might have worked that the protagonists didn''t try" but instead an inconsistency in the story that prevent the story from working properly.

Why didn't every one just gang bang at Cell when they were fighting him?
It's because people prefer the amazing, holy shit moments rather than simple and boring ones which are 10 times more realistic.

I think it's a flaw of the arc rather than a plothole, a major flaw.

also, it was implied that everyone in Z fighters team is dead. the only reason Baba escaped Super Boo's Genocidal attacks was because she was with Goku into otherworld after his time ended and talking with Enma regarding Vegeta's body. there is no way she can be alive seeing how they imply that Karin is dead too.
again, it's mostly left Vague and the problem was it wasn't as well thought out or in detail and definitely an inconsistency in the story but not really that big plothole.
It's not a plot hole, I never called it one, what it IS is a contrivance that wants me to forget how multiple characters act and accept some pretty severe OOC or flanderization of them so the plot can happen. If the rest of the Android arc was better I probably wouldn't care too much but since the entire rest of the arc is also built on really, really forced contrivances too, it makes only annoys me even more.
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Re: Future Trunks Timeline in Android arc could have been saved if Goku took actions from otherworld?

Post by TheGreatness25 » Tue Jul 24, 2018 8:13 pm

The only thing I have left to say on the subject is to reiterate my point from before. If Goku could come back to Earth all willy-nilly, why hasn't he? Why hasn't he done it? Why did he need Enma to grant him a day on Earth and need Baba to escort him? Why didn't he just Instantaneously Move to Earth? Why did the old Kaioshin sacrifice his life to give Goku a new one?

It's simple logic. A equals B but B doesn't necessarily equal A. If all cars are red, that doesn't mean that everything that's red is a car. If living Goku can travel to the land of the dead, that doesn't mean that dead Goku can travel to the land of the living.

If you think that it's a plot hole or whatever that Goku doesn't come back in future Trunks's timeline, then you must think that everything past Cell Games is a plot hole too because the same exact issue arises. If Goku could come back, why the heck would he choose to never see his family -- which he obviously does care about and loves? Why would he allow an innocent person (old Kaioshin) to sacrifice himself to let Goku come back to Earth? Why would he need Enma's permission to return? Why would he be dependent on Baba to take him between the worlds? Because the dead cannot just pop up in the living world.

I'd argue that living Goku being able to travel to Other World is more of a plot hole than dead Goku not traveling to the living world.

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Re: Future Trunks Timeline in Android arc could have been saved if Goku took actions from otherworld?

Post by Ripper 30 » Thu Jul 26, 2018 2:59 pm

TheGreatness25 wrote:The only thing I have left to say on the subject is to reiterate my point from before. If Goku could come back to Earth all willy-nilly, why hasn't he? Why hasn't he done it? Why did he need Enma to grant him a day on Earth and need Baba to escort him? Why didn't he just Instantaneously Move to Earth? Why did the old Kaioshin sacrifice his life to give Goku a new one?

It's simple logic. A equals B but B doesn't necessarily equal A. If all cars are red, that doesn't mean that everything that's red is a car. If living Goku can travel to the land of the dead, that doesn't mean that dead Goku can travel to the land of the living.

If you think that it's a plot hole or whatever that Goku doesn't come back in future Trunks's timeline, then you must think that everything past Cell Games is a plot hole too because the same exact issue arises. If Goku could come back, why the heck would he choose to never see his family -- which he obviously does care about and loves? Why would he allow an innocent person (old Kaioshin) to sacrifice himself to let Goku come back to Earth? Why would he need Enma's permission to return? Why would he be dependent on Baba to take him between the worlds? Because the dead cannot just pop up in the living world.

I'd argue that living Goku being able to travel to Other World is more of a plot hole than dead Goku not traveling to the living world.
you make a nice point. I definitely think calling it a PLOTHOLE is a far stretch.
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Re: Future Trunks Timeline in Android arc could have been saved if Goku took actions from otherworld?

Post by bleed0range » Thu Jul 26, 2018 10:28 pm

OhHiRenan wrote:Goku definitely did not keep his body after dying in Trunks’ timeline nor did anyone else.

The only reason Goku keeps his body is because Kami pulls strings the first time around and he sacrificed himself against Cell the second.

Dying in Dragon Ball doesn’t guarantee you a body in the afterlife. Goku, along with the rest of the main cast, likely just became souls for reincarnation.

Also, Kaio would absolutely be indifferent to Earth. He had no idea what was happening during the main timeline’s Cell arc for the most part. He watches over more planets than just Earth.
This reasoning makes the most sense to me. None of them died a heroic or sacrificial death to retain their bodies like Goku did. Goku dying of a virus of all things certainly wouldn’t be criteria to keep his body.

The androids as bad as they were, were mostly isolated to Earth and would pose no greater threat to the universe anyway.

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Re: Future Trunks Timeline in Android arc could have been saved if Goku took actions from otherworld?

Post by Ripper 30 » Fri Jul 27, 2018 10:52 am

Image

But it was clearly implied by Bonus DBS chapter by Toyotaro that Goku retained his body in future timeline.

https://m.imgur.com/gallery/5rBIPl0
I prefer Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z, DB/Z/GT Movies, Dragon Ball Super and Dragon Ball GT in Japanese.
For DBZ Kai and two new Movies I like both Dub and Sub. I Prefer Shunsuke Kikuchi Soundtracks over All other Composers.
My MAL profile : https://myanimelist.net/profile/Ripper_30

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