potara multiplier never really changed

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p-hyvo
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potara multiplier never really changed

Post by p-hyvo » Thu Aug 02, 2018 2:28 pm

as we know, in dbs thanks to vados we know that tre result of a potara fusion is tens of times stronger than the sum of the parts. but what about it was like this in z too?

this isnt an idea of mine, i borrow it from a fiend of mine.

quickly explaining, what if the sum isnt of the base form of the fusees, but of their top trasformation?


exemple : vegeth = (Goku ssj3 + vegeta ssj2) x80


this may work, because this formula respect both things foundmental in z, like base vegeth > ssj3 Goku and buuhan > base vegeth > buutenks (the last one is manga only), moreover it works well even with vados'es statement

what are your thoughts about this ? my formula even works well with kefla

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Re: potara multiplier never really changed

Post by MoscoSama » Thu Aug 02, 2018 2:40 pm

Well According to Elder Kai , goku and vegeta get a rivalry boost but he's kind of unreliable, also Toriyama doesn't see every potara fusion as the same as seen by
Kibitoshin and his original version of M Zamasu, both of who, you would think would be much stronger than they ended up being.

For the 100% saiyan potara fusions you are probably right though.

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Re: potara multiplier never really changed

Post by p-hyvo » Thu Aug 02, 2018 3:14 pm

MoscoSama wrote:Well According to Elder Kai , goku and vegeta get a rivalry boost but he's kind of unreliable, also Toriyama doesn't see every potara fusion as the same as seen by
Kibitoshin and his original version of M Zamasu, both of who, you would think would be much stronger than they ended up being.

For the 100% saiyan potara fusions you are probably right though.
ii think that the formula is different for kaioshins , honestly

i can see kibitoshin as sum x50 (considering that neither kaioshin nor kibito posses any transofmation, and this can work even with merged zamasu counting as a fusee base black Goku instead rosè black Goku, ccosidering that they should be around the same strength and a x50 multipliers puts them in the 2 times ssb tier


kibitoshin is featless, but it is commonly thought to be low ssj or low ssj2 tier, and this formula perfectly works for this

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Re: potara multiplier never really changed

Post by p-hyvo » Thu Aug 02, 2018 3:22 pm

p-hyvo wrote:
MoscoSama wrote:Well According to Elder Kai , goku and vegeta get a rivalry boost but he's kind of unreliable, also Toriyama doesn't see every potara fusion as the same as seen by
Kibitoshin and his original version of M Zamasu, both of who, you would think would be much stronger than they ended up being.

For the 100% saiyan potara fusions you are probably right though.
ii think that the formula is different for kaioshins , honestly

i can see kibitoshin as sum x50 (considering that neither kaioshin nor kibito posses any transofmation, and this can work even with merged zamasu counting as a fusee base black Goku instead rosè black Goku, ccosidering that they should be around the same strength and a x50 multipliers puts them in the 2 times ssb tier


kibitoshin is featless, but it is commonly thought to be low ssj or low ssj2 tier, and this formula perfectly works for this

moreover, i think about using a similar multiplier for metamorian fusion too, only with a weaker multiplier (a x30 instead a x80 for exemple), and with balanced bases (to explane base gotenks = (ssj goten + ssj trunks) x30, and that is ok with the manga where is shown that base gotenks >>> ssj trunks/goten)

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Re: potara multiplier never really changed

Post by dbgtFO » Thu Aug 02, 2018 4:01 pm

I had a similar idea, but in my case they end up with Super strong base forms and thus smaller SS multipliers as justification for my belief, that their power can be unleashed in base like Ultimate Gohan instead of relying on transformations.

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Re: potara multiplier never really changed

Post by Rakurai » Thu Aug 02, 2018 6:08 pm

Potara multiplier is whatever plot demands it. There is no logic to the boost the fusion receives.
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Re: potara multiplier never really changed

Post by Dagon » Sun Aug 12, 2018 8:04 am

I have multiple thoughts about this.

1. The more powerful the fusees, the more powerful the fusion. Kibito was on par with base Gohan at the budokai, and depending on how you interpret Supreme Kaioshin's power, Shin may be below base Saiyans too, and Kibitoshin was stated to be no match for Buu. However, saiyans can transform. Then again, Old Kai expected the base form of Goku and Gohan's fusion to be enough to kill Buu.

2. Vados saying potara is "tens of times" stronger is one translation. Another translation says "several sets of tens" which would be the Japanese idiom to convey hundreds of times. Kind of like how Americans would call 5,400 "fifty-four hundred" rather than "five-thousand, four-hundred."

3. The potara could both scale up with the power of the fusees and take into account the max power of the fusees including any transformed states. Since Kibito and Shin don't have any transformations, Kibitoshin became nothing special whereas Vegetto became a total beast in base form.

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Re: potara multiplier never really changed

Post by shadowfox87 » Mon Aug 13, 2018 12:39 pm

Toriyama himself confirmed that similar size and power is all that is needed. Factors like "personality" and "rival boost" were made-up things by fans who misinterpreted Elder Kai's words in the original DBZ manga. In fact, what the Elder Kai meant was that Goku and Vegeta live to outdo each other which helps them sustain similar battle powers.
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

[spoiler]Image
Source: Ch. 503 of DBZ manga[/spoiler]

Basically the more similar the fusees are in size and power, the higher the multiplier will be. Most people agree that the general formula for fusion whether dance or potara is (A+B)xC where C is the changes based on the similarities of the fusees. If Goku fused with Satan, for example, C may just be 1 or lower. Goku himself stated during the Buu saga when he thought he may have to fuse with Satan. You don't get a multiplier for free just fusing with anyone. If you fuse with a turtle or a frog for example or farmer shotgun, C is not >1.

For the case of Merged Zamasu, there was a huge power gap and also physical characteristic gap between Zamasu and Black. Zamasu is a Shinjin whose power is near SSJ2 while Black is in Goku's body with SS Rose. Their races are different and their power is different but their soul is the same. They would end up getting a much lower multiplier than Vegito.

I already used Vados' statement and the fact that Base Vegito >> Goku to calculate the fusion multiplier for Potara here: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40610
DBS Manga vs Anime Differences: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=42062
Timelines Explanation: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=42105
Log Power Scaling: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40610
Science of Ultra Instinct: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40707

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Re: potara multiplier never really changed

Post by Kurakaio » Thu Aug 16, 2018 5:42 am

shadowfox87 wrote:
Toriyama himself confirmed that similar size and power is all that is needed. Factors like "personality" and "rival boost" were made-up things by fans who misinterpreted Elder Kai's words in the original DBZ manga. In fact, what the Elder Kai meant was that Goku and Vegeta live to outdo each other which helps them sustain similar battle powers.
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

[spoiler]Image
Source: Ch. 503 of DBZ manga[/spoiler]

Basically the more similar the fusees are in size and power, the higher the multiplier will be. Most people agree that the general formula for fusion whether dance or potara is (A+B)xC where C is the changes based on the similarities of the fusees. If Goku fused with Satan, for example, C may just be 1 or lower. Goku himself stated during the Buu saga when he thought he may have to fuse with Satan. You don't get a multiplier for free just fusing with anyone. If you fuse with a turtle or a frog for example or farmer shotgun, C is not >1.

For the case of Merged Zamasu, there was a huge power gap and also physical characteristic gap between Zamasu and Black. Zamasu is a Shinjin whose power is near SSJ2 while Black is in Goku's body with SS Rose. Their races are different and their power is different but their soul is the same. They would end up getting a much lower multiplier than Vegito.

I already used Vados' statement and the fact that Base Vegito >> Goku to calculate the fusion multiplier for Potara here: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40610
Actually in regards to Merged Zamasu, I'd wager is multiplier was higher. Future Zamasu was far weaker than Goku and Vegeta, yet when they fused they were able to contend with Vegito Blue somewhat in the anime. Despite the fact that just Goku or Vegeta themselves should have been far stronger than normal Zamasu. Though you could argue that they nerfed Vegito in the anime.

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Re: potara multiplier never really changed

Post by shadowfox87 » Thu Aug 16, 2018 11:11 am

Kurakaio wrote: Actually in regards to Merged Zamasu, I'd wager is multiplier was higher. Future Zamasu was far weaker than Goku and Vegeta, yet when they fused they were able to contend with Vegito Blue somewhat in the anime. Despite the fact that just Goku or Vegeta themselves should have been far stronger than normal Zamasu. Though you could argue that they nerfed Vegito in the anime.
That's exactly it. Merged Zamasu was semi-immortal which is what allowed him to take several hits from Vegito Blue. Toriyama himself said that Merged Zamasu wasn't supposed to be that strong, that two SSBs should have been plenty to defeat him. It was Toyotaro's idea to introduce Vegito for fan service, which is what the anime team also did. In the manga, Vegito Blue completely dominated Merged Zamasu without letting him fight back or have a single hit. It was a one-sided battle. In the anime, for the sole purposes of entertainment, Merged Zamasu was fighting equally with Vegito. Vegito even did his final kamehameha but only manged to take out half of Merged Zamasu's body. There was no point in the anime to fuse into Vegito at all given that immortality in the anime was defined differently. Without the mafuba, there was no way to defeat Zamasu so Vegito was essentially just buying time. In the manga, immortality was regeneration. Therefore, they believed that Vegito could have wiped out all traces of Merged Zamasu with a final kamehameha before he could regenerate but the defused just before the Kamehameha was fired. This is one of many reasons I use the manga for power scaling. For more reasons, you can go to the link in my sig that describes the differences between anime and manga.
DBS Manga vs Anime Differences: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=42062
Timelines Explanation: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=42105
Log Power Scaling: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40610
Science of Ultra Instinct: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40707

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Re: potara multiplier never really changed

Post by Kataphrut » Sun Aug 19, 2018 5:44 am

Potara fusion is one of those things that makes no sense trying to scale mathematically to me. For a start, the idea of a "rivalry multiplier" is so vague and arbitrary that there's no point trying to put an exact number to it.

I prefer to think of everything relatively. I could totally buy Merged Zamasu being equal to Vegetto Blue in the anime because Black and Zamasu were in a similar power ballpark to Goku and Vegeta before they fused (Black being slightly above, Zamasu being below but also immortal) and they had good teamwork and coordination. Even with the idea that Zamasu's instability made him weaker, he was still insanely durable and had the luxury of not being on a time limit. Vegetto performing as well as he did came down more to skill and pragmatism than a raw power advantage (punching Zam during his monologue, playing possum to use the spirit sword, outspeeding him when he bulked up, etc).

As for Kefla, that's even easier. We have two fighters, one whose power maxes out at SS2 and the other who has a level above that, left injured and helpless before a stronger fighter who dominates them. But the earrings go on and suddenly they're toying with that previously unstoppable foe. Where have we seen that before? Oh yeah, that's exactly what happened the very first time we saw Potara fusion against Buuhan. Of course there are other factors at play in that fight like Goku being tired, both having access to additional transformations etc, but that's the gist of it.

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Re: potara multiplier never really changed

Post by ankokudaishogun » Mon Aug 20, 2018 6:36 pm

Merged Zamasu did get a power-up before fighting Vegetto Blue, though.

And unlike the manga Zamasu(and\or Black) was a "Kaiohshin". How that can influence the result beyond making it permanent, it's not detailed.

Personally, I do believe a permanent fusion is stronger: the Potara don't have to use power to "force" the bodies together, and such power is used to increase the resulting body. This was represented by Anime Zamasu's Halo.

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