ritual god multiplier

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Rakurai
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Re: ritual god multiplier

Post by Rakurai » Sat Aug 04, 2018 9:40 pm

shadowfox87 wrote:
Rakurai wrote:Fusion is relevant to this discussion because ppl are always comparing SSG Goku to Buu saga Vegetto who's greater than SSJ3 Goku, and base Kefla. If you accept that SSJ3 has x400 multiplier, then you must accept Potara is A x B's power levels because they come from the same source and neither have ever been implied throughout the series. I see no one here doing this, hence why I'm calling out the double standards.
Yes the show has contradicted the notion of fixed multipliers time again and again, you are just too adamant or caught up in your calculations to see it because it would make them irrelevant.

Daizenshuu when it comes to old Z being applied to modern Z, is also irrelevant. Daizenshuu mentions Potara fusion being permanent in general, when it is not. It attributes Goten and Trunks becoming SSJs due to being tailless hybrid prodigies when Toriyama actually attributes it to S-cells.

GT Perfect Files, however, remains relevant to GT because GT does not have a continuation. Unless a new sequel or reboot of GT comes out, it'll stay that way.

You think something like SSJ has a 50x multiplier does not need to be mentioned in the series? It is not even a fucking explanation, it is just a number. If Goku can explain ki control and SSB-KK in Super, they sure as hell would be able to give some simple multiplier numbers if they were actually true. Bloody hell, the explanation for fusion is just as vague and that alone tells me the writers don't put more than a moment's thought into multipliers and math behind the power logic of the series. Why should readers try to make mathematical sense of something that is non-existent in the first place? Honestly if you are really a scientist then I'd have expect you to realize this.

The way DB operates is on powerscaling. Feats and statements tells us everything we need to know. Not math and cetainly not multipliers.
Super Dragon Ball Heroes Universe Mission translation compilation here. All translations are done and owned by me.

SDBH 9th anniversary the secret development interview here. Learn how original SDBH characters such as SS3 Raditz, SS4 Bardock, Robel, & more were conceived!

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Re: ritual god multiplier

Post by shadowfox87 » Sat Aug 04, 2018 9:58 pm

Rakurai wrote: Yes the show has contradicted the notion of fixed multipliers time again and again, you are just too adamant or caught up in your calculations to see it because it would make them irrelevant.
Again, only if you believe that there aren't different multipliers for higher grades. If you acknowledge that there are higher grades, then we simply do not know what the multipliers are for those higher grades. It does not mean that the fixed multipliers for the first grade of each transformation given in the SEG are invalid.
Rakurai wrote: Daizenshuu when it comes to old Z being applied to modern Z, is also irrelevant. Daizenshuu mentions Potara fusion being permanent in general, when it is not. It attributes Goten and Trunks becoming SSJs due to being tailless hybrid prodigies when Toriyama actually attributes it to S-cells.
The tailless generation are prodigies and it is due to the fact that they inherited S-cells from their parents at a young age. Gohan himself did not inherit as many S-cells from Goku as Goten because at the time, Goku couldn't turn into a SSJ. Gohan had a tail though. It is not due to the fact that they don't have a tail that what makes them strong. It is the compatibility between the humans and saiyans that leads to it and that's exactly what the Daizenshuu states. Toriyama then expands upon it. The tail is recessive when a Saiyan breeds with a non-Saiyan, but it has nothing to do with Goten and Trunks being prodigies. It is simply a term to describe their generation.
Rakurai wrote: You think something like SSJ has a 50x multiplier does not need to be mentioned in the series? It is not even a fucking explanation, it is just a number. If Goku can explain ki control and SSB-KK in Super, they sure as hell would be able to give some simple multiplier numbers if they were actually true. Bloody hell, the explanation for fusion is just as vague and that alone tells me the writers don't put more than a moment's thought into multipliers and math behind the power logic of the series.
No, I don't think it needs to. Official power levels of Freeza and Goku already came out. The 50x was already derived from it before SEG.
Rakurai wrote: Why should readers try to make mathematical sense of something that is non-existent in the first place? Honestly if you are really a scientist then I'd have expect you to realize this.
The way DB operates is on powerscaling. Feats and statements tells us everything we need to know. Not math and cetainly not multipliers.
If you don't know the answer to that question, I'm not sure what to tell you. In the word, there are several people who use science and math to explain things in science fiction and pop culture including anime, marvel, dc, etc.. There are theoretical physicists who have published entire books on how superpowers could work:
[spoiler]https://www.amazon.ca/Physics-Superhero ... es+physics
https://www.amazon.ca/Physics-Superhero ... es+physics
https://www.amazon.ca/DC-Super-Hero-Sci ... es+science
https://www.amazon.ca/Science-Superhero ... es+science
https://www.amazon.ca/The-Science-of-Su ... es+science[/spoiler]

Michio Kaku, another theoretical physicist, has documentaries on Netflix just to talk about how things could be possible in comic books. Kyle Hill, has an entire youtube channel, dedicated to it - Because Science where he actually does even use Dragon Ball at times. There are even TED talks just on using physics to explain superpowers.

If you are a real scientist, then you should be interested in topics like this where people actually try to use math, science, and physics to make sense of things that are otherwise fantasy or science-fiction. In my lab, I analyze EEG signals and correlate them with mood changes in the field of Neuroscience. I wrote another theory in my sig on "Science of Ultra Instinct" because I can literally measure how long it takes for a signal to travel from the brain to a motor neuron in your hand to move it. Why do we do it? Because Science.
DBS Manga vs Anime Differences: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=42062
Timelines Explanation: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=42105
Log Power Scaling: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40610
Science of Ultra Instinct: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40707

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Re: ritual god multiplier

Post by Borros » Sun Aug 05, 2018 7:07 am

shadowfox87 wrote:
Rakurai wrote:Fans who want to debate this fact are just pulling a double standard when using SSJ multipliers. If you accept that SEG is outdated material, then you must also accept the fact that SSJ1-3 multipliers are also outdated.
SSJ1 multiplier was at 50x even before SEG since we have the official power levels of Goku and Freeza. The Daizenshuu 7 also states 50x. The thing with being outdated or retconned is that something new has to be stated to replace it. Nothing has been stated to imply that the SSJ2-3 multipliers no longer apply. The only thing that has been stated explicitly is what Vados stated in DBS. Now of course, if some new information comes or a new guidebook is published that explicitly states that these multipliers are different, then the SSJ2-3 multipliers would also be outdated. Since you are a scientist as well, you are welcome to check the thread in my sig and criticize as much as you'd like to find any plot holes or inconsistencies. I welcome any feedback.

I also don't know why we're debating the Potara multiplier when the thread is about the SSG multiplier.
Shadow, you admit that the SSJ is a basic multiplier by 50. But in an interview Toriyama had stated that the multiplier was 10 times. Since you are an engineer, I would like you to prove with equations that the SSJ = x10 is absurd without using the Kaioken x20 because not everyone believes that it is not a multiplier of power by 20 (Kaioken x N =/= Base x N).

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Re: ritual god multiplier

Post by Rakurai » Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:25 am

shadowfox87 wrote:
Rakurai wrote: Yes the show has contradicted the notion of fixed multipliers time again and again, you are just too adamant or caught up in your calculations to see it because it would make them irrelevant.
Again, only if you believe that there aren't different multipliers for higher grades. If you acknowledge that there are higher grades, then we simply do not know what the multipliers are for those higher grades. It does not mean that the fixed multipliers for the first grade of each transformation given in the SEG are invalid.
Rakurai wrote: Daizenshuu when it comes to old Z being applied to modern Z, is also irrelevant. Daizenshuu mentions Potara fusion being permanent in general, when it is not. It attributes Goten and Trunks becoming SSJs due to being tailless hybrid prodigies when Toriyama actually attributes it to S-cells.
The tailless generation are prodigies and it is due to the fact that they inherited S-cells from their parents at a young age. Gohan himself did not inherit as many S-cells from Goku as Goten because at the time, Goku couldn't turn into a SSJ. Gohan had a tail though. It is not due to the fact that they don't have a tail that what makes them strong. It is the compatibility between the humans and saiyans that leads to it and that's exactly what the Daizenshuu states. Toriyama then expands upon it. The tail is recessive when a Saiyan breeds with a non-Saiyan, but it has nothing to do with Goten and Trunks being prodigies. It is simply a term to describe their generation.
Rakurai wrote: You think something like SSJ has a 50x multiplier does not need to be mentioned in the series? It is not even a fucking explanation, it is just a number. If Goku can explain ki control and SSB-KK in Super, they sure as hell would be able to give some simple multiplier numbers if they were actually true. Bloody hell, the explanation for fusion is just as vague and that alone tells me the writers don't put more than a moment's thought into multipliers and math behind the power logic of the series.
No, I don't think it needs to. Official power levels of Freeza and Goku already came out. The 50x was already derived from it before SEG.
Rakurai wrote: Why should readers try to make mathematical sense of something that is non-existent in the first place? Honestly if you are really a scientist then I'd have expect you to realize this.
The way DB operates is on powerscaling. Feats and statements tells us everything we need to know. Not math and cetainly not multipliers.
If you don't know the answer to that question, I'm not sure what to tell you. In the word, there are several people who use science and math to explain things in science fiction and pop culture including anime, marvel, dc, etc.. There are theoretical physicists who have published entire books on how superpowers could work:
[spoiler]https://www.amazon.ca/Physics-Superhero ... es+physics
https://www.amazon.ca/Physics-Superhero ... es+physics
https://www.amazon.ca/DC-Super-Hero-Sci ... es+science
https://www.amazon.ca/Science-Superhero ... es+science
https://www.amazon.ca/The-Science-of-Su ... es+science[/spoiler]

Michio Kaku, another theoretical physicist, has documentaries on Netflix just to talk about how things could be possible in comic books. Kyle Hill, has an entire youtube channel, dedicated to it - Because Science where he actually does even use Dragon Ball at times. There are even TED talks just on using physics to explain superpowers.

If you are a real scientist, then you should be interested in topics like this where people actually try to use math, science, and physics to make sense of things that are otherwise fantasy or science-fiction. In my lab, I analyze EEG signals and correlate them with mood changes in the field of Neuroscience. I wrote another theory in my sig on "Science of Ultra Instinct" because I can literally measure how long it takes for a signal to travel from the brain to a motor neuron in your hand to move it. Why do we do it? Because Science.
Not for a single moment do I believe that Toriyama actually remembers that passage or anything from Daizenshuu 7 and tried to complement it with his S-cells BS. Hell, he doesn't ever remember the fact that he designed Broly's character or that SSJ2 existed (and thought SSJ3 was SSJ2 for some time smh).

Image

"... that was a bit of an exaggeration."

"... I felt it was about a 10-fold change from what it was up to that point."

So you're gonna believe a guidebook that has multipliers which were never, not once, not during its original run and not during modern Dragon Ball now, stated over the word of Toriyama at the time of what he thought? Toriyama himself obviously never used multipliers to quantify PLs either considering his math logic from KK to SSJ is also shady.

Writers often do not look into the physics or biology or chemistry behind their fictional works. Of course it varies from writer to writer but you can tell when something is physically impossible. There is a certain point when science cannot explain things anymore in fiction. You can extrapolate all you want but no amount of physics will ever tell how Superman's super hearing where he can hear the voice of a person on Earth when he is as far away as the moon. Or how his biology allows him to shoot fire beams from his eyes. Or go faster than light without experiencing time dilation.

But this is not even science. This is math that obviously does not exist in the DB show. People can claim x9000000000000000000000000 multipliers over base and the show can say instead "oh yeah it is a few times stronger."
Super Dragon Ball Heroes Universe Mission translation compilation here. All translations are done and owned by me.

SDBH 9th anniversary the secret development interview here. Learn how original SDBH characters such as SS3 Raditz, SS4 Bardock, Robel, & more were conceived!

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Re: ritual god multiplier

Post by shadowfox87 » Sun Aug 05, 2018 12:27 pm

Borros wrote:Shadow, you admit that the SSJ is a basic multiplier by 50. But in an interview Toriyama had stated that the multiplier was 10 times. Since you are an engineer, I would like you to prove with equations that the SSJ = x10 is absurd without using the Kaioken x20 because not everyone believes that it is not a multiplier of power by 20 (Kaioken x N =/= Base x N).
This was already answered before by Kanzenshuu:
Also in the Super Exciting Guide: Story Volume, Toriyama revealed in an interview that he thought a multiplier of 50 was rather large, and that he had originally drawn it with the sense of being a 10-fold increase in what Goku had been “up until then”. It is unclear how this would put Super Saiyan in relation to Goku’s regular use of Kaiō-Ken x10 to gain a 10-fold increase in power, and the “up until then” bit muddies things further. Since Goku had already multiplied his power 10 and 20 times with the Kaiō-Ken as he fought Freeza, did Toriyama mean that he thought of Super Saiyan as being 10 times stronger than that, meaning it would make Goku overall 100 or 200 times stronger than he normally was? If so, it is hard to make sense of Toriyama saying that a 50-fold increase is too large. If Toriyama meant that it only made Goku 10 times stronger than he was without using Kaiō-Ken, then Super Saiyan Goku is only half as strong as he was when using the Kaiō-Ken x20, at which point he was unable to significantly harm Freeza. Perhaps the answer is that Toriyama is being his usual forgetful self, since he himself admits in the same interview to have forgotten much of Dragon Ball′s story himself, and that we should not take these numbers he throws out too seriously.
Source: http://www.kanzenshuu.com/battle-power/databook/
Rakurai wrote:Not for a single moment do I believe that Toriyama actually remembers that passage or anything from Daizenshuu 7 and tried to complement it with his S-cells BS. Hell, he doesn't ever remember the fact that he designed Broly's character or that SSJ2 existed (and thought SSJ3 was SSJ2 for some time smh).

Image

"... that was a bit of an exaggeration."

"... I felt it was about a 10-fold change from what it was up to that point."

So you're gonna believe a guidebook that has multipliers which were never, not once, not during its original run and not during modern Dragon Ball now, stated over the word of Toriyama at the time of what he thought? Toriyama himself obviously never used multipliers to quantify PLs either considering his math logic from KK to SSJ is also shady.

Writers often do not look into the physics or biology or chemistry behind their fictional works. Of course it varies from writer to writer but you can tell when something is physically impossible. There is a certain point when science cannot explain things anymore in fiction. You can extrapolate all you want but no amount of physics will ever tell how Superman's super hearing where he can hear the voice of a person on Earth when he is as far away as the moon. Or how his biology allows him to shoot fire beams from his eyes. Or go faster than light without experiencing time dilation.

But this is not even science. This is math that obviously does not exist in the DB show. People can claim x9000000000000000000000000 multipliers over base and the show can say instead "oh yeah it is a few times stronger."
Of course Toriyama doesn't seriously take these numbers or remember half of the things in the franchise that have been stated. Did I say that he does? The point of this is that, a fan is trying to use some logic without contradicting what is already stated in the original source material and supplementary material. Can we create ANY kind of logic or system to explain it without contradicting previously established facts? Yes or No? You have supplementary material that has given numbers. These numbers are your constraints as well as anything that has happened in the story thus far. Now, you have to come up with a systematic approach that meets these constraints. It's a simple engineering problem. You have your equations and you solve them. If there is no solution - then there is no solution. Did I say that the authors of Dragon Ball are sitting in a room solving equations and doing math? No. That was never the point of this conversation. Fans have been doing this since 1998. There are threads all over the internet talking about why rocks lift up from the ground when they power up. Time dilation, teleportation, quantum mechanics, etc. This is not exclusive to DB.

I referenced you over 10 things from comics and pop culture where people do use science. Marvel and DC do hire real scentists, physicists, and doctors to consult and review science. This is not just exclusive to comics but lots of pop culture. At comicon, these scientists are even available at panels to answer questions like Michio Kaku. It's all theoretical. Nobody is saying that superpowers are real. The reason to do this at all is for - fun.

Again, for you, using logic or math or anything for a kids show like DB is futile so everyone in the internet who is doing it is wrong. All authors from all fictional works who are consulting scientists should stop and realize that it is a kids show. You want to go with Toriyama's 10-fold increase for SSJ? Ok. In the series, it's explicitly stated what the Kaioken boost is - up to 20x. So now please explain to me with your logic how that works? We are going primarily by what you said - what's explicitly stated in the series and also what Toriyama said. Let's just throw all supplementary material in the garbage like you want. I'm going to guess your answer - "Yea that's my point, there is no logic. DB is a kids show and it's not meant to use math. There is no logic". So basically, when there are two choices - one with logic and one without - the latter will always win because it's a kids show.

As for all the Superman related stuff you just asked, those books I referenced, do take a deep dive to attempt to explain it. You might be wondering why? Why the hell did someone take the time to write an entire book using physics to explain something that can't be explained or is fiction? Why do people do it all? The entire biology of how Superman absorbs solar energy and stores it into his mitchondria to produce heat vision through his retina. The way that his myocytes hypertrophy for superstrength. Sound doesn't travel in a vaccuum, so the older Superman which may have depicted him hearing from the moon got retconned. Him traveling faster than light is the same reasoning for Flash. After they break the light barrier, there is now time dilation where actually they are just moving relatively at a regular speed but to the observer, they move faster than light. It has all been extensively discussed in those books. It's all theoretical and hence, not real. The point is that fans like to have some kind of explanation, even if it's not real.

We've jumped far far ahead of the original topic of this thread. You're not even addressing the counterpoints of the actual logic but now we are arguing about why even bother using logic in a fictional story.
Last edited by shadowfox87 on Sun Aug 05, 2018 1:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
DBS Manga vs Anime Differences: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=42062
Timelines Explanation: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=42105
Log Power Scaling: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40610
Science of Ultra Instinct: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40707

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Re: ritual god multiplier

Post by Borros » Sun Aug 05, 2018 12:56 pm

shadowfox87 wrote:
Borros wrote:Shadow, you admit that the SSJ is a basic multiplier by 50. But in an interview Toriyama had stated that the multiplier was 10 times. Since you are an engineer, I would like you to prove with equations that the SSJ = x10 is absurd without using the Kaioken x20 because not everyone believes that it is not a multiplier of power by 20 (Kaioken x N =/= Base x N).
This was already answered before by Kanzenshuu:
Also in the Super Exciting Guide: Story Volume, Toriyama revealed in an interview that he thought a multiplier of 50 was rather large, and that he had originally drawn it with the sense of being a 10-fold increase in what Goku had been “up until then”. It is unclear how this would put Super Saiyan in relation to Goku’s regular use of Kaiō-Ken x10 to gain a 10-fold increase in power, and the “up until then” bit muddies things further. Since Goku had already multiplied his power 10 and 20 times with the Kaiō-Ken as he fought Freeza, did Toriyama mean that he thought of Super Saiyan as being 10 times stronger than that, meaning it would make Goku overall 100 or 200 times stronger than he normally was? If so, it is hard to make sense of Toriyama saying that a 50-fold increase is too large. If Toriyama meant that it only made Goku 10 times stronger than he was without using Kaiō-Ken, then Super Saiyan Goku is only half as strong as he was when using the Kaiō-Ken x20, at which point he was unable to significantly harm Freeza. Perhaps the answer is that Toriyama is being his usual forgetful self, since he himself admits in the same interview to have forgotten much of Dragon Ball′s story himself, and that we should not take these numbers he throws out too seriously.
Source: http://www.kanzenshuu.com/battle-power/databook/
Thanks for your link Shadow, but as I told you, maybe the Kaioken does not multiply the strength of the fighter. Maybe Kaioken x20 < base x10 and that may explain why Toriyama saw the SSJ as a x10 because he said x50 was exaggerated so he probably did not think of it as a x100 or an x200. Correct me if bullshit but in the manga, it is not really indicated that the Kaioken x10 multiplies the base force by 10, right ?

I do not know where I read it, but one of the speakers explained that Herm's had made a translation error on Tenshinhan's Kaioken box.

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Re: ritual god multiplier

Post by shadowfox87 » Sun Aug 05, 2018 1:01 pm

Borros wrote:
shadowfox87 wrote:
Borros wrote:Shadow, you admit that the SSJ is a basic multiplier by 50. But in an interview Toriyama had stated that the multiplier was 10 times. Since you are an engineer, I would like you to prove with equations that the SSJ = x10 is absurd without using the Kaioken x20 because not everyone believes that it is not a multiplier of power by 20 (Kaioken x N =/= Base x N).
This was already answered before by Kanzenshuu:
Also in the Super Exciting Guide: Story Volume, Toriyama revealed in an interview that he thought a multiplier of 50 was rather large, and that he had originally drawn it with the sense of being a 10-fold increase in what Goku had been “up until then”. It is unclear how this would put Super Saiyan in relation to Goku’s regular use of Kaiō-Ken x10 to gain a 10-fold increase in power, and the “up until then” bit muddies things further. Since Goku had already multiplied his power 10 and 20 times with the Kaiō-Ken as he fought Freeza, did Toriyama mean that he thought of Super Saiyan as being 10 times stronger than that, meaning it would make Goku overall 100 or 200 times stronger than he normally was? If so, it is hard to make sense of Toriyama saying that a 50-fold increase is too large. If Toriyama meant that it only made Goku 10 times stronger than he was without using Kaiō-Ken, then Super Saiyan Goku is only half as strong as he was when using the Kaiō-Ken x20, at which point he was unable to significantly harm Freeza. Perhaps the answer is that Toriyama is being his usual forgetful self, since he himself admits in the same interview to have forgotten much of Dragon Ball′s story himself, and that we should not take these numbers he throws out too seriously.
Source: http://www.kanzenshuu.com/battle-power/databook/
Thanks for your link Shadow, but as I told you, maybe the Kaioken does not multiply the strength of the fighter. Maybe Kaioken x20 < base x10 and that may explain why Toriyama saw the SSJ as a x10 because he said x50 was exaggerated so he probably did not think of it as a x100 or an x200. Correct me if bullshit but in the manga, it is not really indicated that the Kaioken x10 multiplies the base force by 10, right ?
Well, the official power levels were given to us up to the Freeza saga. So a regular Kaioken by default doubles the base power. This is why when Goku powered up in front of Ginyu, he was using regular Kaioken and his power level was 180,000 but his base was only 90,000. Anything beyond 2x, is explicitly stated most of the time like Kaioken x3 or Kaiokenx20. I mean if it doesn't multiply base strength, then what does it even do? Toriyama is human and he is allowed to be wrong and forget things. The best explanation is that he himself didn't realize how strong 50x is. Many times authors look back at their work and realize something.
DBS Manga vs Anime Differences: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=42062
Timelines Explanation: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=42105
Log Power Scaling: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40610
Science of Ultra Instinct: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40707

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Re: ritual god multiplier

Post by Borros » Thu Aug 09, 2018 7:13 am

Well, the official power levels were given to us up to the Freeza saga. So a regular Kaioken by default doubles the base power. This is why when Goku powered up in front of Ginyu, he was using regular Kaioken and his power level was 180,000 but his base was only 90,000. Anything beyond 2x, is explicitly stated most of the time like Kaioken x3 or Kaiokenx20. I mean if it doesn't multiply base strength, then what does it even do? Toriyama is human and he is allowed to be wrong and forget things. The best explanation is that he himself didn't realize how strong 50x is. Many times authors look back at their work and realize something.
Exactly Shadow, but for Kaioken of levels above 2 we do not really know how it works? In fact there was a speaker called Supaman and he explains that in Japanese Tenshinhan does not really talk about the power of Goku that is multiplied by 10 with the Kaioken x10 and that Herm's would have misinterpreted this text when he translated. I can not read Japanese so on this point I could not really know who is wrong.

He explains it on page 2 of this topic.

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=35647

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