Borros wrote:Shadow, you admit that the SSJ is a basic multiplier by 50. But in an interview Toriyama had stated that the multiplier was 10 times. Since you are an engineer, I would like you to prove with equations that the SSJ = x10 is absurd without using the Kaioken x20 because not everyone believes that it is not a multiplier of power by 20 (Kaioken x N =/= Base x N).
This was already answered before by Kanzenshuu:
Also in the Super Exciting Guide: Story Volume, Toriyama revealed in an interview that he thought a multiplier of 50 was rather large, and that he had originally drawn it with the sense of being a 10-fold increase in what Goku had been “up until then”. It is unclear how this would put Super Saiyan in relation to Goku’s regular use of Kaiō-Ken x10 to gain a 10-fold increase in power, and the “up until then” bit muddies things further. Since Goku had already multiplied his power 10 and 20 times with the Kaiō-Ken as he fought Freeza, did Toriyama mean that he thought of Super Saiyan as being 10 times stronger than that, meaning it would make Goku overall 100 or 200 times stronger than he normally was? If so, it is hard to make sense of Toriyama saying that a 50-fold increase is too large. If Toriyama meant that it only made Goku 10 times stronger than he was without using Kaiō-Ken, then Super Saiyan Goku is only half as strong as he was when using the Kaiō-Ken x20, at which point he was unable to significantly harm Freeza. Perhaps the answer is that Toriyama is being his usual forgetful self, since he himself admits in the same interview to have forgotten much of Dragon Ball′s story himself, and that we should not take these numbers he throws out too seriously.
Source:
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/battle-power/databook/
Rakurai wrote:Not for a single moment do I believe that Toriyama actually remembers that passage or anything from Daizenshuu 7 and tried to complement it with his S-cells BS. Hell, he doesn't ever remember the fact that he designed Broly's character or that SSJ2 existed (and thought SSJ3 was SSJ2 for some time smh).
"... that was a bit of an exaggeration."
"... I felt it was about a 10-fold change from what it was up to that point."
So you're gonna believe a guidebook that has multipliers which were never, not once, not during its original run and not during modern Dragon Ball now, stated over the word of Toriyama at the time of what he thought? Toriyama himself obviously never used multipliers to quantify PLs either considering his math logic from KK to SSJ is also shady.
Writers often do not look into the physics or biology or chemistry behind their fictional works. Of course it varies from writer to writer but you can tell when something is physically impossible. There is a certain point when science cannot explain things anymore in fiction. You can extrapolate all you want but no amount of physics will ever tell how Superman's super hearing where he can hear the voice of a person on Earth when he is as far away as the moon. Or how his biology allows him to shoot fire beams from his eyes. Or go faster than light without experiencing time dilation.
But this is not even science. This is math that obviously does not exist in the DB show. People can claim x9000000000000000000000000 multipliers over base and the show can say instead "oh yeah it is a few times stronger."
Of course Toriyama doesn't seriously take these numbers or remember half of the things in the franchise that have been stated. Did I say that he does? The point of this is that, a fan is trying to use some logic without contradicting what is already stated in the original source material and supplementary material. Can we create ANY kind of logic or system to explain it without contradicting previously established facts? Yes or No? You have supplementary material that has given numbers. These numbers are your constraints as well as anything that has happened in the story thus far. Now, you have to come up with a systematic approach that meets these constraints. It's a simple engineering problem. You have your equations and you solve them. If there is no solution - then there is no solution. Did I say that the authors of Dragon Ball are sitting in a room solving equations and doing math? No. That was never the point of this conversation. Fans have been doing this since 1998. There are threads all over the internet talking about why rocks lift up from the ground when they power up. Time dilation, teleportation, quantum mechanics, etc. This is not exclusive to DB.
I referenced you over 10 things from comics and pop culture where people do use science. Marvel and DC do hire real scentists, physicists, and doctors to consult and review science. This is not just exclusive to comics but lots of pop culture. At comicon, these scientists are even available at panels to answer questions like Michio Kaku. It's all
theoretical. Nobody is saying that superpowers are real. The reason to do this at all is for - fun.
Again, for you, using logic or math or anything for a kids show like DB is futile so everyone in the internet who is doing it is wrong. All authors from all fictional works who are consulting scientists should stop and realize that it is a kids show. You want to go with Toriyama's 10-fold increase for SSJ? Ok. In the series, it's explicitly stated what the Kaioken boost is - up to 20x. So now please explain to me with your logic how that works? We are going primarily by what you said - what's explicitly stated in the series and also what Toriyama said. Let's just throw all supplementary material in the garbage like you want. I'm going to guess your answer - "Yea that's my point, there is no logic. DB is a kids show and it's not meant to use math. There is no logic". So basically, when there are two choices - one with logic and one without - the latter will always win because it's a kids show.
As for all the Superman related stuff you just asked, those books I referenced, do take a deep dive to attempt to explain it. You might be wondering why? Why the hell did someone take the time to write an entire book using physics to explain something that can't be explained or is fiction? Why do people do it all? The entire biology of how Superman absorbs solar energy and stores it into his mitchondria to produce heat vision through his retina. The way that his myocytes hypertrophy for superstrength. Sound doesn't travel in a vaccuum, so the older Superman which may have depicted him hearing from the moon got retconned. Him traveling faster than light is the same reasoning for Flash. After they break the light barrier, there is now time dilation where actually they are just moving relatively at a regular speed but to the observer, they move faster than light. It has all been extensively discussed in those books. It's all theoretical and hence, not real. The point is that fans like to have some kind of explanation, even if it's not real.
We've jumped far far ahead of the original topic of this thread. You're not even addressing the counterpoints of the actual logic but now we are arguing about why even bother using logic in a fictional story.