ritual god multiplier

[p-hyvo]

so, as we know, ritual god is far , far stronger than ssj3 vegito, going by goku's statement during the bog arc. but how much exactly? i'll figured that out.

the key for this question is a couple of statements, told us by kibito kai and elder kai in bot bog and the shadow dragons arc in gt.

infact, them had recognized both omega shenron and bills as capable to destroy themacroverse, but there is a foundamental difference : omega it told to destroy it by time, by only spreading his negative ki trought the universe, while bill is stated to have the possibility to do so only after a few punch clashes with Goku.

cosidering this, bog bills is easily a ssj4 gogeta + tier, and this is stated even in xenoverse (if you want to take this into an account), when ssj4 gogeta tells us he's not sure to beat bills but he think he could do it (in the year xenowerse came out there were only bog and rof, but considering that rof was a dlc saga , i dont consider it for that statement)

told that, and knowing the real differende between z and gt power levels, ritual god culd perfectly be a x1'250'000'000'000'000'000'000 multiplier on top of base Goku (this is going by my personal power levels obviously, so i bet your multiplier will be different even following this same way of reasoning)

[theherodjl]

ritual god culd perfectly be a x1'250'000'000'000'000'000'000 multiplier on top of base Goku

I'm sorry, but that's just extraordinarily unlikely. You're talking about a sextillion-fold power increase just for SSJG alone: such an increase would boost Umigame to high-end GT levels for sure, and his base power level is 0.001 according to Bulma's scouter. Then there's SSJB to think about, SSJB with Kaio-ken, SSJBE, and Ultra Instinct which would take that figure into the septillions/octillions. I like power levels & all, but that's just going into a numerical degree of absurdity for the sake of it.

[shadowfox87]

I got about 400,000.

Base Vegito > SSJ3 Goku (Daizenshuu 7)
Base Vegito > 1.5x SSJ3 Goku
Base Vegito > 1.5x 400x Base Goku
Base Vegito > 600x Base Goku

SSG Goku (BoG)> SSJ3 Vegito (BoG)
SSG > 1.5x SSJ3 Vegito
SSG > 1.5x 400x 600x Base Goku
SSG > 360,000x Base Goku
SSG ~ 400,000x Base Goku

[emperior]

I always saw it as being 4’000x, making it 10 times stronger than Super Saiyan 3. It was higher in the movie though.

[Rakurai]

SSG ritual being stronger than SSJ3 Vegetto is complete nonsense and headcanon.

Vegetto cannot go SSJ3 off the bat because Vegeta doesn't have it. And if anyone wants to bring Gotenks up , he had to train for it. Vegetto has had no such time.

Kefla was able to go SSJ2 because Kale's controlled form is officially her SSJ2 according to Dokkan Battle (which is the most official source we'll ever get). Both Caulifla and Kale had the prerequisites for Kefla to access SSJ2.

https://jpn.dbz.space/cards/1013660

There is zero evidence thus far of a fusion being able to access transformations that only one fusee has.

[PFM18]

I got about 400,000.

Base Vegito > SSJ3 Goku (Daizenshuu 7)
Base Vegito > 1.5x SSJ3 Goku
Base Vegito > 1.5x 400x Base Goku
Base Vegito > 600x Base Goku

SSG Goku (BoG)> SSJ3 Vegito (BoG)
SSG > 1.5x SSJ3 Vegito
SSG > 1.5x 400x 600x Base Goku
SSG > 360,000x Base Goku
SSG ~ 400,000x Base Goku

I hope you don't mind I posted your extended version of this in another thread because I thought you had a good explanation.

For the most part I think about it the same way. The bolded part is the only part I did significantly differently in which I have "25x" instead of "1.5x" and it comes to around 8 Million time base.

[shadowfox87]

I got about 400,000.

Base Vegito > SSJ3 Goku (Daizenshuu 7)
Base Vegito > 1.5x SSJ3 Goku
Base Vegito > 1.5x 400x Base Goku
Base Vegito > 600x Base Goku

SSG Goku (BoG)> SSJ3 Vegito (BoG)
SSG > 1.5x SSJ3 Vegito
SSG > 1.5x 400x 600x Base Goku
SSG > 360,000x Base Goku
SSG ~ 400,000x Base Goku

I hope you don't mind I posted your extended version of this in another thread because I thought you had a good explanation.

For the most part I think about it the same way. The bolded part is the only part I did significantly differently in which I have "25x" instead of "1.5x" and it comes to around 8 Million time base.

Of course not! Feel free to expand or modify it to your need. I may also later change the derivation. If you go higher than 1.5, then

Base Vegito > Ultimate Gohan > SSJ3 Gotenks > SSJ Gotenks ~ SSJ3 Goku (Buu Saga)
Base Vegito > 1.5x 1.5x 8x 400x = 7200x Base Goku

Then you'd get

SSG > 1.5x 400x 7200x
SSG > 4.32 M x Base Goku

But I also use this to derive the Potara fusion multiplier, so it makes SSB Vegito too strong. Even though the manga says he's stronger than Beerus, it makes him way too strong. The issue here is that 8x with Gotenks and it was never really that clear so that's why I leave it out and just go by the Daizenshuu. Because the Daizenshuu's statement of Base Vegito > SSJ3 Goku may refer to a Goku at the end of DBZ which at that point, may have already caught up to SSJ3 Gotenks.

[Polyphase Avatron]

The multiplier is X, where X = any number you feel like.

[p-hyvo]

I always saw it as being 4’000x, making it 10 times stronger than Super Saiyan 3. It was higher in the movie though.

from what i know, that whas never really stated anyway

[p-hyvo]

SSG ritual being stronger than SSJ3 Vegetto is complete nonsense and headcanon.

Vegetto cannot go SSJ3 off the bat because Vegeta doesn't have it. And if anyone wants to bring Gotenks up , he had to train for it. Vegetto has had no such time.

Kefla was able to go SSJ2 because Kale's controlled form is officially her SSJ2 according to Dokkan Battle (which is the most official source we'll ever get). Both Caulifla and Kale had the prerequisites for Kefla to access SSJ2.

https://jpn.dbz.space/cards/1013660

There is zero evidence thus far of a fusion being able to access transformations that only one fusee has.

even if we want to take in consideratios ssj vegito in not really that important, we only know that ritual god is tronger than him but not how much, ant that is what i've told with this post. the real way to find the multiplier is another, vegetto is irrilevant and works only as a bottom limit

[p-hyvo]

I got about 400,000.

Base Vegito > SSJ3 Goku (Daizenshuu 7)
Base Vegito > 1.5x SSJ3 Goku
Base Vegito > 1.5x 400x Base Goku
Base Vegito > 600x Base Goku

SSG Goku (BoG)> SSJ3 Vegito (BoG)
SSG > 1.5x SSJ3 Vegito
SSG > 1.5x 400x 600x Base Goku
SSG > 360,000x Base Goku
SSG ~ 400,000x Base Goku

oooh boy thats fucked up.

no, in z vegetto isnt only a x1,5 of ssj3 Goku, but a lot more

base vegettto >buutenks >>mystic gohan>>super buu >=ssj3 gotenks>>>>ssj gotenks post train >>ssj gotenks before train >goku ssj3 >fat buu

the thing is like this.

so no, 400'000 isnt fine as a multiplier beacause the base reasining behind that number isnt.
i've explained with this post how high it should be

[p-hyvo]

ritual god culd perfectly be a x1'250'000'000'000'000'000'000 multiplier on top of base Goku

I'm sorry, but that's just extraordinarily unlikely. You're talking about a sextillion-fold power increase just for SSJG alone: such an increase would boost Umigame to high-end GT levels for sure, and his base power level is 0.001 according to Bulma's scouter. Then there's SSJB to think about, SSJB with Kaio-ken, SSJBE, and Ultra Instinct which would take that figure into the septillions/octillions. I like power levels & all, but that's just going into a numerical degree of absurdity for the sake of it.

i know, probably umigame would come to be s17 arc tier with that multiplier.
but know what? i have explained why is like this, and i have my reason to believe that it is like i said.
i have to explain something now : after bog i keep base goku > bog god goku, and i shrink god's multiplier a lot (from sextillions to just x500, lol), and obiously if i'd conitued to use sextillions fold mult on an octillions base form, you'd been right.

[shadowfox87]

oooh boy thats fucked up.

no, in z vegetto isnt only a x1,5 of ssj3 Goku, but a lot more

base vegettto >buutenks >>mystic gohan>>super buu >=ssj3 gotenks>>>>ssj gotenks post train >>ssj gotenks before train >goku ssj3 >fat buu

the thing is like this.

so no, 400'000 isnt fine as a multiplier beacause the base reasining behind that number isnt.
i've explained with this post how high it should be

Not sure if you read my post at all. Since you didn't, I will post the screenshot of the explanation:
[spoiler][/spoiler]

Basically, based on the DBZ manga,

SSJ Vegetto > Buuhan > Ultimate Gohan > SSJ3 Gotenks > SSJ Gotenks ~ SSJ3 Goku (Buu Saga)

You follow so far? Base Vegetto is not > Buuhan. It was never shown in the DBZ manga. He transformed as soon as he was fused.

Furthermore, the Daizenshuu 7 states that Base Vegetto > SSJ3 Goku. However, this is after the end of DBZ. In Yo Son Goku returns, SSJ Gotenks fights Aka. Then SSJ Goku steps in because Gotenks didn't finish the job. We can assume that Goku has already caught up to Gotenks. In BoG, Goku fights Beerus using SSJ3. At Bulma's birthday party, everyone fights Beerus including Ultimate Gohan and Gotenks. It wasn't until Vegeta that anyone commented that he surpassed Goku. You can also use Movie 13 which took place after the Buu saga and showed SSJ3 Goku stronger than both Ultimate Gohan and SSJ3 Gotenks.

Given all this,

SSJ Vegetto > Buuhan > Base Vegetto > SSJ3 Goku > Ultimate Gohan > SSJ3 Gotenks

In any case, if you don't agree with this, you'll get a very high number for Base Vegetto, which in turn gives you a high multiplier for Potarra and over 4 million at least for SSG. This will affect all your derivations downstream which will cause an error. I don't use power levels. I use logarithmic scaling. I've stated my assumptions and constraints and I will stick to them as it doesn't cause any errors using my scaling. You are free to use what you want.

[p-hyvo]

oooh boy thats fucked up.

no, in z vegetto isnt only a x1,5 of ssj3 Goku, but a lot more

base vegettto >buutenks >>mystic gohan>>super buu >=ssj3 gotenks>>>>ssj gotenks post train >>ssj gotenks before train >goku ssj3 >fat buu

the thing is like this.

so no, 400'000 isnt fine as a multiplier beacause the base reasining behind that number isnt.
i've explained with this post how high it should be

Not sure if you read my post at all. Since you didn't, I will post the screenshot of the explanation:
[spoiler][/spoiler]

Basically, based on the DBZ manga,

SSJ Vegetto > Buuhan > Ultimate Gohan > SSJ3 Gotenks > SSJ Gotenks ~ SSJ3 Goku (Buu Saga)

You follow so far? Base Vegetto is not > Buuhan. It was never shown in the DBZ manga. He transformed as soon as he was fused.

Furthermore, the Daizenshuu 7 states that Base Vegetto > SSJ3 Goku. However, this is after the end of DBZ. In Yo Son Goku returns, SSJ Gotenks fights Aka. Then SSJ Goku steps in because Gotenks didn't finish the job. We can assume that Goku has already caught up to Gotenks. In BoG, Goku fights Beerus using SSJ3. At Bulma's birthday party, everyone fights Beerus including Ultimate Gohan and Gotenks. It wasn't until Vegeta that anyone commented that he surpassed Goku. You can also use Movie 13 which took place after the Buu saga and showed SSJ3 Goku stronger than both Ultimate Gohan and SSJ3 Gotenks.

Given all this,

SSJ Vegetto > Buuhan > Base Vegetto > SSJ3 Goku > Ultimate Gohan > SSJ3 Gotenks

In any case, if you don't agree with this, you'll get a very high number for Base Vegetto, which in turn gives you a high multiplier for Potarra and over 4 million at least for SSG. This will affect all your derivations downstream which will cause an error. I don't use power levels. I use logarithmic scaling. I've stated my assumptions and constraints and I will stick to them as it doesn't cause any errors using my scaling. You are free to use what you want.

movies are in another canon an have different power scaling, they are nothing like the main series , so they are'nt really comparable to the main series'es power levels.

as i've explained in another post, vegettto is really irrelevant in finding the multiplier because the way to go in order to find it is another, vegetto just works as a bottom limit to tell us that the multiplier for ritual god can't be lower than his.


the problem with your statement is that you keep vegetto = x1,5 ssj3 Goku, that thing is never stated and it is'nt even ok with the series'es power scaling at all. it is just headcanon, plus wrong headcanon. that makes no sense at all

[emperior]

This Vegetto thing is too overblown. I doubt Goku was making all these calculations in his head. He was probably referring to Buu arc Vegetto’s power which is what he was most familiar with. And even if he was referring to an eventual SS3 Vegetto, he was still correct in saying that it wouldn’t have been enough to beat Beerus.
Heck, not even ToP arc SSB with Kaioken x20 was enough to beat Beerus, considering how Jiren beat it with ease while not even being anywhere near his full power.

[p-hyvo]

This Vegetto thing is too overblown. I doubt Goku was making all these calculations in his head. He was probably referring to Buu arc Vegetto’s power which is what he was most familiar with. And even if he was referring to an eventual SS3 Vegetto, he was still correct in saying that it wouldn’t have been enough to beat Beerus.
Heck, not even ToP arc SSB with Kaioken x20 was enough to beat Beerus, considering how Jiren beat it with ease while not even being anywhere near his full power.

as i told twice vegetto never really matters in finding the multiplier. i dont remember if i've told this too, but after bog i use a x500 multiplier for ssj god on top of the god absorbed base form , that its tronger than ritusl god Goku from bog obiously. so, taking this into an account ssb kaioken x20 is ""only"" a x500'000 god base, that it alone is sextillions of times base Goku without god absorbed, and base Goku without god yet is billions/trilllions in terms of power level in his base form, depending on wich moment of super are we taking in consideration

[emperior]

This Vegetto thing is too overblown. I doubt Goku was making all these calculations in his head. He was probably referring to Buu arc Vegetto’s power which is what he was most familiar with. And even if he was referring to an eventual SS3 Vegetto, he was still correct in saying that it wouldn’t have been enough to beat Beerus.
Heck, not even ToP arc SSB with Kaioken x20 was enough to beat Beerus, considering how Jiren beat it with ease while not even being anywhere near his full power.

as i told twice vegetto never really matters in finding the multiplier. i dont remember if i've told this too, but after bog i use a x500 multiplier for ssj god on top of the god absorbed base form , that its tronger than ritusl god Goku from bog obiously. so, taking this into an account ssb kaioken x20 is ""only"" a x500'000 god base, that it alone is sextillions of times base Goku without god absorbed, and base Goku without god yet is billions/trilllions in terms of power level in his base form, depending on wich moment of super are we taking in consideration

You can’t take into consideration GT to calculate SSG’s power. Nor you can take into account base Vegetto being stronger than Buutenks as it was never proven in the manga. You absolutely shouldn’t consider Xenoverse’s interactions either.
There’s no way SSG is that strong. I repeat, it was super strong in BoG but it’s no longer the case. It wasn’t Beerus who was buffed but SSG that was nerfed. In fact we later see in the serie how Freeza, Trunks, Gohan and 17 have been able to reach and surpass that same level (I only talk about the characters who appeared before Super, as we know how strong they were before). Which means that SSG is no longer that unreachable realm of power that was in BoG. That was probably decided to still keep the other characters relevant in some ways, for a long running show. Toriyama probably had plans to end the whole God thing introduced in BoG in a couple of movies where only Goku and Vegeta would have gotten the main fights.

I repeat, if we want to give SSG a static multiplier on top of base then it’s not that high. I still see it as a 4’000x (I don’t see it being any lower as Goku was surprised by its immense power) but it could go up to even 5’000, 8’000’, 10’000, 20’000 and so on but I would cap it at 50’000x at best, and that would be very generous.

I imagine that at the time of Super’s BoG, Beerus is around 1 million times stronger than Goku when at their best. 1 million being a completely arbitrary number which would fit to show just how much stronger Beerus is, and also fits with Beerus having lived millions of years.
Whis’ comparison to the big tree of Beerus’ planet is perfect too.

[p-hyvo]

This Vegetto thing is too overblown. I doubt Goku was making all these calculations in his head. He was probably referring to Buu arc Vegetto’s power which is what he was most familiar with. And even if he was referring to an eventual SS3 Vegetto, he was still correct in saying that it wouldn’t have been enough to beat Beerus.
Heck, not even ToP arc SSB with Kaioken x20 was enough to beat Beerus, considering how Jiren beat it with ease while not even being anywhere near his full power.

as i told twice vegetto never really matters in finding the multiplier. i dont remember if i've told this too, but after bog i use a x500 multiplier for ssj god on top of the god absorbed base form , that its tronger than ritusl god Goku from bog obiously. so, taking this into an account ssb kaioken x20 is ""only"" a x500'000 god base, that it alone is sextillions of times base Goku without god absorbed, and base Goku without god yet is billions/trilllions in terms of power level in his base form, depending on wich moment of super are we taking in consideration

You can’t take into consideration GT to calculate SSG’s power. Nor you can take into account base Vegetto being stronger than Buutenks as it was never proven in the manga. You absolutely shouldn’t consider Xenoverse’s interactions either.
There’s no way SSG is that strong. I repeat, it was super strong in BoG but it’s no longer the case. It wasn’t Beerus who was buffed but SSG that was nerfed. In fact we later see in the serie how Freeza, Trunks, Gohan and 17 have been able to reach and surpass that same level (I only talk about the characters who appeared before Super, as we know how strong they were before). Which means that SSG is no longer that unreachable realm of power that was in BoG. That was probably decided to still keep the other characters relevant in some ways, for a long running show. Toriyama probably had plans to end the whole God thing introduced in BoG in a couple of movies where only Goku and Vegeta would have gotten the main fights.

I repeat, if we want to give SSG a static multiplier on top of base then it’s not that high. I still see it as a 4’000x (I don’t see it being any lower as Goku was surprised by its immense power) but it could go up to even 5’000, 8’000’, 10’000, 20’000 and so on but I would cap it at 50’000x at best, and that would be very generous.

I imagine that at the time of Super’s BoG, Beerus is around 1 million times stronger than Goku when at their best. 1 million being a completely arbitrary number which would fit to show just how much stronger Beerus is, and also fits with Beerus having lived millions of years.
Whis’ comparison to the big tree of Beerus’ planet is perfect too.

i think i have to take in account gt too, if there is said something that can help to scale ritual god's power. reguarding xenoverse I'm ok with you, i referred to that just because it is perfectly matched with my results.

no, multiplier neverchanges if you dont consider base Goku (super) > bog god Goku, if you keep goku's base in the billions/trillions trought super, god's multiplier shall remain the same, and theres no reason to really change it in my opinion.

io you, like me , use to put base Goku (super) > bog god Goku , as i said obviously the multiplier decreases esponentially, but it is balanced by the god base form (in fact, post bog i use x1'000 as god multiplier, because it will obviously be stupid to stac a quadrillions fold multiplier on to of aa octillins-nonillions base form. i mean, you can do it, but it hasent got sense at all)

[ekrolo2]

I got about 400,000.

Base Vegito > SSJ3 Goku (Daizenshuu 7)
Base Vegito > 1.5x SSJ3 Goku
Base Vegito > 1.5x 400x Base Goku
Base Vegito > 600x Base Goku

SSG Goku (BoG)> SSJ3 Vegito (BoG)
SSG > 1.5x SSJ3 Vegito
SSG > 1.5x 400x 600x Base Goku
SSG > 360,000x Base Goku
SSG ~ 400,000x Base Goku

This is more or less where I stand too for both God and SS4.

[Rakurai]

SSG ritual being stronger than SSJ3 Vegetto is complete nonsense and headcanon.

Vegetto cannot go SSJ3 off the bat because Vegeta doesn't have it. And if anyone wants to bring Gotenks up , he had to train for it. Vegetto has had no such time.

Kefla was able to go SSJ2 because Kale's controlled form is officially her SSJ2 according to Dokkan Battle (which is the most official source we'll ever get). Both Caulifla and Kale had the prerequisites for Kefla to access SSJ2.

https://jpn.dbz.space/cards/1013660

There is zero evidence thus far of a fusion being able to access transformations that only one fusee has.

even if we want to take in consideratios ssj vegito in not really that important, we only know that ritual god is tronger than him but not how much, ant that is what i've told with this post. the real way to find the multiplier is another, vegetto is irrilevant and works only as a bottom limit

Dragon Ball =/= math.

Writers aren't calculating multipliers in their heads when showcasing transformations or fusions. This whole multiplier endeavor is frankly pointless and ultimately all speculative.

SSG Goku was apparently stronger than SSJ Vegetto but massively inferior to base Kefla. According to that, SSG is less than some tens of times stronger than base Caulifla or Kale.

People want to use SSJ multipliers listed in the Super Exciting Guide, yet not the Potara multiplier A x B. Namek SSJ Goku's PL was 150,000,000. That would mean SSJ Vegetto = Buu saga SSJ Goku's PL × SSJ Vegeta's PL.

So at the very minimum that would be a 150,000,000 × 50 multiplier stacked on top of base Goku as a comparison. At the very minimum.

Do you know how ridiculous that is? That is an absurd number and eclipses anything beyond non fusion standards, in fact I'd be surprised why BoG Vegetto wouldn't be good enough for Beerus at that point.

Not trying to ruin your fun. But the double standards being used for official numbers is egregious. Anybody who does this must realize that it's all pure headcanon, true fusion is dictated by plot. That's why I don't pay any attention to this multiplier business to begin with.