ritual god multiplier

[shadowfox87]

I will repeat what I said earlier because it seems people aren't reading:

I realize that the "1.5x" may be too low IF you still believe that

SSJ Vegetto > Buuhan > Base Vegetto > Buutenks > Ultimate Gohan > SSJ3 Gotenks > SSJ Gotenks ~ SSJ3 Goku

If you believe this you'll ultimately get

Base Vegetto > 20x SSJ3 Goku not 1.5

I already tried all these calculations and numbers years ago. Buu is defeated in Age 774. Yo Son Goku starts 2 years later which shows SSJ Goku > SSJ Gotenks and Battle of Gods starts 2 years later that shows Goku already surpassed Gohan and Gotenks. Thus, 4 years have passed since the defeat of Kid Buu. At this point, Goku's level is no longer below Gotenks or Gohan.

[theherodjl]

explained right in the main post. a series of statements contained both in gt and super makes me thinkthat, and that sextillions is the gap between post buu saga ang sd saga in gt, so it is necesary to be like that in order to match the statements

so, as we know, ritual god is far , far stronger than ssj3 vegito, going by goku's statement during the bog arc. but how much exactly? i'll figured that out.

the key for this question is a couple of statements, told us by kibito kai and elder kai in bot bog and the shadow dragons arc in gt.

infact, them had recognized both omega shenron and bills as capable to destroy themacroverse, but there is a foundamental difference : omega it told to destroy it by time, by only spreading his negative ki trought the universe, while bill is stated to have the possibility to do so only after a few punch clashes with Goku.

cosidering this, bog bills is easily a ssj4 gogeta + tier, and this is stated even in xenoverse (if you want to take this into an account), when ssj4 gogeta tells us he's not sure to beat bills but he think he could do it (in the year xenowerse came out there were only bog and rof, but considering that rof was a dlc saga , i dont consider it for that statement)

told that, and knowing the real differende between z and gt power levels, ritual god culd perfectly be a x1'250'000'000'000'000'000'000 multiplier on top of base Goku (this is going by my personal power levels obviously, so i bet your multiplier will be different even following this same way of reasoning)

And nothing in this post actually provides numerical examples that the SSJG multiplier is a sextillion-fold beyond blanket statements that the characters just get a lot stronger between each series. Anecdotal evidence does not solve conjecture.

[p-hyvo]

explained right in the main post. a series of statements contained both in gt and super makes me thinkthat, and that sextillions is the gap between post buu saga ang sd saga in gt, so it is necesary to be like that in order to match the statements

so, as we know, ritual god is far , far stronger than ssj3 vegito, going by goku's statement during the bog arc. but how much exactly? i'll figured that out.

the key for this question is a couple of statements, told us by kibito kai and elder kai in bot bog and the shadow dragons arc in gt.

infact, them had recognized both omega shenron and bills as capable to destroy themacroverse, but there is a foundamental difference : omega it told to destroy it by time, by only spreading his negative ki trought the universe, while bill is stated to have the possibility to do so only after a few punch clashes with Goku.

cosidering this, bog bills is easily a ssj4 gogeta + tier, and this is stated even in xenoverse (if you want to take this into an account), when ssj4 gogeta tells us he's not sure to beat bills but he think he could do it (in the year xenowerse came out there were only bog and rof, but considering that rof was a dlc saga , i dont consider it for that statement)

told that, and knowing the real differende between z and gt power levels, ritual god culd perfectly be a x1'250'000'000'000'000'000'000 multiplier on top of base Goku (this is going by my personal power levels obviously, so i bet your multiplier will be different even following this same way of reasoning)

And nothing in this post actually provides numerical examples that the SSJG multiplier is a sextillion-fold beyond blanket statements that the characters just get a lot stronger between each series. Anecdotal evidence does not solve conjecture.

as i have explained, the sextillions or whatever thing is the difference between post buu saga and ssj4 gogeta difference in power. it may depend on your power levels. i have made a lot of versions of power levels in certain the mult is quadrillions , in other quintillions, and in oters (as the exemple i brought) is sextillions. the point is that anyway is extremely high, ang the post was to let you all know that. the key is just that the multiplier is more or less the difference between buu saga Goku and ssj4 gogeta, the numerical part can vary as will obviously, but if you come up with a good powe level list for gt the gap between post buu saga gogu and ssj4 gogeta is from quadrillions to sextillions

[Ssjcell]

It's gotta be in the millions or billions

[p-hyvo]

It's gotta be in the millions or billions

If you follow my reasoning, no way it is gonna . it is nowhere near enough, it has to be at least in the quadrillions

[Ssjcell]

Yeah its definitely not like 4000 times it's some absurd number

[p-hyvo]

Yeah its definitely not like 4000 times it's some absurd number

what do you mean by that? i dont catch you

[Ssjcell]

I'm saying the multiplier has to be way above 4000

[shadowfox87]

Here it is if for people who want the multiplier between Base Vegetto and SSJ3 Goku to be at least 20x:

SSJ Vegetto > Buuhan > Base Vegetto > Buutenks > Ultimate Gohan > SSJ3 Gotenks > SSJ Gotenks ~ SSJ3 Goku (Buu Saga)

Base Vegetto > SSJ3 Goku (Daizenshuu 7)
Base Vegetto > Buutenks > Ultimate Gohan > SSJ3 Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku
Base Vegetto > 1.5x Buutenks > 1.25x Ultimate Gohan > 1.3x SSJ3 Gotenks > 8x SSJ3 Goku
Base Vegetto > 1.5x 1.25x 1.3x 8x SSJ3 Goku
Base Vegetto > 19.5x SSJ3 Goku
Base Vegetto ~ 20x SSJ3 Goku

SSG Goku (BoG)> SSJ3 Vegito (BoG)
SSG > 1.5x SSJ3 Vegetto
SSG > 1.5x 400x 20x SSJ3 Goku
SSG > 4.8 million x Base Goku
SSG ~ 5 million x Base Goku

[Rakurai]

Note that Base Kefla wasn't shown in the manga at all. You're right, by my math, Base Kelfa should NOT have been stronger than SSG Goku, a base saiyan without god ki or berserker. Kale's base was indeed stronger than SSJ Caulifla though.

Using math and multipliers is not futile. I once thought it was and so never bothered. However, it can be done as long as you define your assumptions and your source material (anime or manga). I use manga primarily. The anime is inconsistent and is futile to use. If you stick to only 1 source, then you won't have double standards.

Oh, and as for not using the "A x B" given in the SEG, that is because cross does not always mean multiplication. There are published papers in science, where two variables are related and a correlation is done between them, so they use cross. They write it exactly the same way. Essentially, here it is being used as a statistical interaction. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiplication_sign

For me, it is (A+B) x C where C is unknown and you have to derive it. The same goes for Fusion Dance but C is lower and depends on the accuracy of the fusion dance, the similarities of battle power and physical attributes of the fusees.

Again, DB =/= math. In what world do you think DB uses A x B to mean some sort of statistical correlation instead of multiplication like we learned in middle school? This is a show for kids and a guidebook for kids, not academia or the mathematics field. You must be breaking some new mental gymnastics headground to think of it in such a way.

And in case you still don't believe it:



Sentence right next to picture of Goku with Potara earring: 合体によるパワーアップは、2人の戦闘力の合計ではなく、「掛け算」になるほどの凄まじさ！

"The fusion power-up is not like the addition of two people's power levels, but rather the tremendous result of multiplication!"

「掛け算」= multiplication

So again, fusion according to SEG is multiplication, not some statistical correlation bullshit. SEG also lists the multipliers for SSJ2-3. The double standards are absurd because this community only takes in the information that suits their argument but ignore the rest of the picture.

[shadowfox87]

Again, DB =/= math. In what world do you think DB uses A x B to mean some sort of statistical correlation instead of multiplication like we learned in middle school? This is a show for kids and a guidebook for kids, not academia or the mathematics field. You must be breaking some new mental gymnastics headground to think of it in such a way.

And in case you still don't believe it:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Sentence right next to picture of Goku with Potara earring: 合体によるパワーアップは、2人の戦闘力の合計ではなく、「掛け算」になるほどの凄まじさ！

"The fusion power-up is not like the addition of two people's power levels, but rather the tremendous result of multiplication!"

「掛け算」= multiplication

So again, fusion according to SEG is multiplication, not some statistical correlation bullshit. SEG also lists the multipliers for SSJ2-3. The double standards are absurd because this community only takes in the information that suits their argument but ignore the rest of the picture.

I'm a scientist and engineer in real life, so I'm used to using math for everything to quantify it. I'm used to doing statistics and publishing papers so that's why I'm anal about it. I don't do this just for DB but lots of pop culture. This is normal for me. DB is a kids show for sure, but that doesn't mean people aren't going to take it seriously. This entire forum is filled with people who do take the show seriously and have written guides that eclipse anything else on the internet. I don't use power levels because they are subjective and official power levels ended with the Freeza saga. I use logarithmic scaling. You can read my thread where I reference every single manga chapter, anime episode, Daizenshuu / Chouzenshuu volume, or any other source. I don't pull numbers out of thin air.

The question of whether the "cross" in SEG is literal multiplication or used to denote that Vegetto is made up of Goku X Vegeta has long been debated in this forum. Kanzenshuu staff have even given their opinion on it. In DBS, we later see Potara fusion again and Vados states in Episode 114 literally, "the fusion creates a new body and personality greater than the sum of the two individuals and increases their power by tens of times." All of this already referenced in my thread. So regardless of whether you take the cross in SEG as literal, since SEG was published in 2009, it's now outdated. This is not a double standard. I've created my own logic and equations which you can even download and correct me if you feel the need to. There's an entire excel spreadsheet available to download. The link is in my sig.

Threads where this has already been discussed:
viewtopic.php?t=19796#p539125
viewtopic.php?t=27649#p815142
viewtopic.php?t=30781&start=9060#p1178264
viewtopic.php?t=31672#p988557

[Rakurai]

Again, DB =/= math. In what world do you think DB uses A x B to mean some sort of statistical correlation instead of multiplication like we learned in middle school? This is a show for kids and a guidebook for kids, not academia or the mathematics field. You must be breaking some new mental gymnastics headground to think of it in such a way.

And in case you still don't believe it:



Sentence right next to picture of Goku with Potara earring: 合体によるパワーアップは、2人の戦闘力の合計ではなく、「掛け算」になるほどの凄まじさ！

"The fusion power-up is not like the addition of two people's power levels, but rather the tremendous result of multiplication!"

「掛け算」= multiplication

So again, fusion according to SEG is multiplication, not some statistical correlation bullshit. SEG also lists the multipliers for SSJ2-3. The double standards are absurd because this community only takes in the information that suits their argument but ignore the rest of the picture.

I'm a scientist and engineer in real life, so I'm used to using math for everything to quantify it. I'm used to doing statistics and publishing papers so that's why I'm anal about it. DB is a kids show for sure, but that doesn't mean people aren't going to take it seriously. This entire forum is filled with people who do take the show seriously and have written guides that eclipse anything else on the internet. I don't use power levels because they are subjective and official power levels ended with the Freeza saga. I use logarithmic scaling. You can read my thread where I reference every single manga chapter, anime episode, Daizenshuu / Chouzenshuu volume, or any other source. I don't pull numbers out of thin air.

The question of whether the "cross" in SEG is literal multiplication or used to denote that Vegetto is made up of Goku X Vegeta has long been debated in this forum. Kanzenshuu staff have even given their opinion on it. In DBS, we later see Potara fusion again and Vados states in Episode 114 literally, "the fusion creates a new body and personality greater than the sum of the two individuals and increases their power by tens of times." All of this already referenced in my thread. So regardless of whether you take the cross in SEG as literal, since SEG was published in 2009, it's now outdated. This is not a double standard. I've created my own logic and equations which you can even download and correct me if you feel the need to. There's an entire excel spreadsheet available to download. The link is in my sig.

Threads where this has already been discussed:
viewtopic.php?t=19796#p539125
viewtopic.php?t=27649#p815142
viewtopic.php?t=30781&start=9060#p1178264
viewtopic.php?t=31672#p988557

I am a scientist in real life as well. But there is a time and place for everything.

There really should be no debate on what the SEG is implying. I can read Japanese and have translated the relevant part for you. Herms has also done it and the term for multiplication is explicitly stated there.

It is like Hujio said on your second link, the more and more this drags on the more it becomes a "what I want it to say" type of situation. I read what the guidebook says in the most literal sense. The interpretation falls in the same line of reasoning. It is what it is both in Japanese and English.

Fans who want to debate this fact are just pulling a double standard when using SSJ multipliers. If you accept that SEG is outdated material, then you must also accept the fact that SSJ1-3 multipliers are also outdated.

[shadowfox87]

Fans who want to debate this fact are just pulling a double standard when using SSJ multipliers. If you accept that SEG is outdated material, then you must also accept the fact that SSJ1-3 multipliers are also outdated.

SSJ1 multiplier was at 50x even before SEG since we have the official power levels of Goku and Freeza. The Daizenshuu 7 also states 50x. The thing with being outdated or retconned is that something new has to be stated to replace it. Nothing has been stated to imply that the SSJ2-3 multipliers no longer apply. The only thing that has been stated explicitly is what Vados stated in DBS. Now of course, if some new information comes or a new guidebook is published that explicitly states that these multipliers are different, then the SSJ2-3 multipliers would also be outdated. Since you are a scientist as well, you are welcome to check the thread in my sig and criticize as much as you'd like to find any plot holes or inconsistencies. I welcome any feedback.

I also don't know why we're debating the Potara multiplier when the thread is about the SSG multiplier.

[Rakurai]

Fans who want to debate this fact are just pulling a double standard when using SSJ multipliers. If you accept that SEG is outdated material, then you must also accept the fact that SSJ1-3 multipliers are also outdated.

SSJ1 multiplier was at 50x even before SEG since we have the official power levels of Goku and Freeza. The Daizenshuu 7 also states 50x. The thing with being outdated or retconned is that something new has to be stated to replace it. Nothing has been stated to imply that the SSJ2-3 multipliers no longer apply. The only thing that has been stated explicitly is what Vados stated in DBS. Now of course, if some new information comes or a new guidebook is published that explicitly states that these multipliers are different, then the SSJ2-3 multipliers would also be outdated. Since you are a scientist as well, you are welcome to check the thread in my sig and criticize as much as you'd like to find any plot holes or inconsistencies. I welcome any feedback.

I also don't know why we're debating the Potara multiplier when the thread is about the SSG multiplier.

Because people are using SSJ3 multiplier which is also BS at this point.

U6 vs u7 saga Cabba = Vegeta. But SSJ Vegeta > SSJ Cabba. SSJ is variable and the fact that FPSSJ exists alone proves that.

Manga F. Trunks' SSJ2 = Goku's SSJ3 (DBS manga). This should tell you that SSJ2 can also be strengthened, likewise the same for SSJ3.

Base Cumber = Blue Vegetto. SSJ Cumber ~ SSB-KK Vegetto (SDBH manga). The most stacked we've seen was KKx20.

Again, SSJ multipliers have no place in DB anymore. Writers are not actively thinking things like Goku's SSJ3 is x400 base or some shit like that. If it were the case then we wouldn't have things like SSJ2 F. Trunks ~ SSJ3 Goku. Unless the multiplier value is explicitly stated like with KK, then we are just working with outdated info.

No offense but I can't be bothered to read through your essay of a thread. However this part of the series alone does not warrant anything that excessive.

[shadowfox87]

Because people are using SSJ3 multiplier which is also BS at this point.

U6 vs u7 saga Cabba = Vegeta. But SSJ Vegeta > SSJ Cabba. SSJ is variable and the fact that FPSSJ exists alone proves that.

Manga F. Trunks' SSJ2 = Goku's SSJ3 (DBS manga). This should tell you that SSJ2 can also be strengthened, likewise the same for SSJ3.

Base Cumber = Blue Vegetto. SSJ Cumber ~ SSB-KK Vegetto (SDBH manga). The most stacked we've seen was KKx20.

Again, SSJ multipliers have no place in DB anymore. Writers are not actively thinking things like Goku's SSJ3 is x400 base or some shit like that. If it were the case then we wouldn't have things like SSJ2 F. Trunks ~ SSJ3 Goku. Unless the multiplier value is explicitly stated like with KK, then we are just working with outdated info.

No offense but I can't be bothered to read through your essay of a thread. However this part of the series alone does not warrant anything that excessive.

Everything you're saying right now has already been addressed in that thread you "can't be bothered to read". I already stated that there are higher grades for each form and hence, why each form can be further strengthened. This is why a SSJ2 Trunks or Enraged SSJ2 Vegeta surpass SSJ3 Goku. FPSSJ and SSJ have the same multiplier but the former has less stamina drain. The first grade of SSJ already had the best balance of speed, power, and stamina. So yes, SSJ Cabba lost to SSJ Vegeta even though their bases were equal due to one of these reasons. However, it can be implied that whole match was just Vegeta training Cabba. The original multipliers still stand however even if there are higher grades.

In another thread, I've said exactly the same thing about Cumber. KK is maximum at 20x while SSJ is 50x. Hence, if Base Cumber = SSB Vegetto, and Cumber transforms into SSJ, then regardless of the KK value, SSB Vegetto would still not be a match. However, this all falls under our original assumption that Base Cumber = SSB Vegetto. This could not be the case and which is what triggered Cumber to transform into a SSJ in the first place.

Still have no idea why we just talked about 3-4 topics that have nothing to do with SSG multiplier.

[ankokudaishogun]

Base Cumber = Blue Vegetto. SSJ Cumber ~ SSB-KK Vegetto (SDBH manga). The most stacked we've seen was KKx20.

(S)DBH manga is not canon.
In Canon(the Arcade), it's Vegetto Blue(no Kaiohken) vs Super Saiyan Cumber.

[dragon boss z]

Base Cumber = Blue Vegetto. SSJ Cumber ~ SSB-KK Vegetto (SDBH manga). The most stacked we've seen was KKx20.

(S)DBH manga is not canon.
In Canon(the Arcade), it's Vegetto Blue(no Kaiohken) vs Super Saiyan Cumber.

No version of heroes is "canon"

[Rakurai]

Because people are using SSJ3 multiplier which is also BS at this point.

U6 vs u7 saga Cabba = Vegeta. But SSJ Vegeta > SSJ Cabba. SSJ is variable and the fact that FPSSJ exists alone proves that.

Manga F. Trunks' SSJ2 = Goku's SSJ3 (DBS manga). This should tell you that SSJ2 can also be strengthened, likewise the same for SSJ3.

Base Cumber = Blue Vegetto. SSJ Cumber ~ SSB-KK Vegetto (SDBH manga). The most stacked we've seen was KKx20.

Again, SSJ multipliers have no place in DB anymore. Writers are not actively thinking things like Goku's SSJ3 is x400 base or some shit like that. If it were the case then we wouldn't have things like SSJ2 F. Trunks ~ SSJ3 Goku. Unless the multiplier value is explicitly stated like with KK, then we are just working with outdated info.

No offense but I can't be bothered to read through your essay of a thread. However this part of the series alone does not warrant anything that excessive.

Everything you're saying right now has already been addressed in that thread you "can't be bothered to read". I already stated that there are higher grades for each form and hence, why each form can be further strengthened. This is why a SSJ2 Trunks or Enraged SSJ2 Vegeta surpass SSJ3 Goku. FPSSJ and SSJ have the same multiplier but the former has less stamina drain. The first grade of SSJ already had the best balance of speed, power, and stamina. So yes, SSJ Cabba lost to SSJ Vegeta even though their bases were equal due to one of these reasons. However, it can be implied that whole match was just Vegeta training Cabba. The original multipliers still stand however even if there are higher grades.

In another thread, I've said exactly the same thing about Cumber. KK is maximum at 20x while SSJ is 50x. Hence, if Base Cumber = SSB Vegetto, and Cumber transforms into SSJ, then regardless of the KK value, SSB Vegetto would still not be a match. However, this all falls under our original assumption that Base Cumber = SSB Vegetto. This could not be the case and which is what triggered Cumber to transform into a SSJ in the first place.

Still have no idea why we just talked about 3-4 topics that have nothing to do with SSG multiplier.

Do you know how silly that sounds? How does a form retain the same multiplier if one is drained on stamina vs one that is not? That the user is getting weaker or tired means that the multiplier is constantly changing.

"Strengthening" is just another cop-out at trying to make these multipliers seems as if they're relevant when they're not and will never be at this point. The fact that these transformations can be strengthened means that the boost varies from person to person using it. Which means these multipliers are not set in stone. SSJ3 Goku ~ Manga SSJ2 F. Trunks > SSJ2 Goku > Goku >= F. Trunks. Simple as that.

Anything further beyond what is extrapolated from the narrative is headcanon. SSJ Vegeta > SSJ Cabba even though Vegeta = Cabba. SSJ Cumber = SSB-KKx20 Vegetto even though Blue Vegetto = base Cumber. I don't know why you're so bent on thinking these multipliers are relevant. If these multipliers are still so relevant to the show, why have they not ever been stated or explicitly mentioned? They did it for KK multipliers, so where's the proof in the pudding? I'll save you the trouble: nobody who writes DB thinks about them, ever.

Fusion is relevant to this discussion because ppl are always comparing SSG Goku to Buu saga Vegetto who's greater than SSJ3 Goku, and base Kefla. If you accept that SSJ3 has x400 multiplier, then you must accept Potara is A x B's power levels because they come from the same source and neither have ever been implied throughout the series. I see no one here doing this, hence why I'm calling out the double standards.

Base Cumber = Blue Vegetto. SSJ Cumber ~ SSB-KK Vegetto (SDBH manga). The most stacked we've seen was KKx20.

(S)DBH manga is not canon.
In Canon(the Arcade), it's Vegetto Blue(no Kaiohken) vs Super Saiyan Cumber.

Not my point. I was referring more to the idea that the idea of SSJ having a fixed multiplier is stupid and has never been implied in any of the official series, manga or animated. But then why do we see Vegetto going SSB-KK in the trailers up against base Cumber?

[shadowfox87]

Do you know how silly that sounds? How does a form retain the same multiplier if one is drained on stamina vs one that is not? That the user is getting weaker or tired means that the multiplier is constantly changing.

"Strengthening" is just another cop-out at trying to make these multipliers seems as if they're relevant when they're not and will never be at this point. The fact that these transformations can be strengthened means that the boost varies from person to person using it. Which means these multipliers are not set in stone. SSJ3 Goku ~ Manga SSJ2 F. Trunks > SSJ2 Goku > Goku >= F. Trunks. Simple as that.

Anything further beyond what is extrapolated from the narrative is headcanon. SSJ Vegeta > SSJ Cabba even though Vegeta = Cabba. SSJ Cumber = SSB-KKx20 Vegetto even though Blue Vegetto = base Cumber. I don't know why you're so bent on thinking these multipliers are relevant. If these multipliers are still so relevant to the show, why have they not ever been stated or explicitly mentioned? They did it for KK multipliers, so where's the proof in the pudding? I'll save you the trouble: nobody who writes DB thinks about them, ever.

I feel like this is deja vu all over again. The Super Saiyan Grades have already been discussed. I referenced them in the other thread you don't want to read as well as all the counterpoints for this. The Trunks anime comic is the first source that discussed them. It is mentioned also in the Daizenshuu 7 and the GT Perfect Files. I already quoted everything based on herms translation. Again, the multiplier for Super Saiyan Grade 4 and 1 are exactly the same. viewtopic.php?t=42142#p1505192 If it sounds silly to you, then that is your perspective. There is absolutely no indication in any written source material to state that the Grade 4 has a higher multiplier. That is your headcanon.

As for multipliers not being explicitly being mentioned, why do they need to be? Not everything needs to be explicit in a story. That's why there is supplementary material. An episode is not going to sit me down and talk about all the math and logic behind it. The show is for entertainment. Not explicitly stating it does exclude the possibility of it being true. Omission of information does not invalidate information if it is supplied in supplementary material. What we need instead is new supplementary material to address the higher grades and other things.

Super Saiyan Grade Four
A form where without consciously raising their ki they are still able to remain Super Saiyan on a regular basis: that's Grade Four. From the start Grade One balanced power, energy consumption, etc. This form removes the slightly agitated state which characterizes Grade One. It's a natural form of Super Saiyan which has even gotten rid of their wild personality!

Right there, you have an explanation for why an SSJ Vegeta can beat an SSJ Cabba even if their bases are equal. Stamina drain is part of the show. It's one of the reasons why SSJ3 is even inferior to SSJ2. Vegeta, a person who has been accustomed to SSJ for years versus Cabba, a person who just recently transformed into an SSJ - their powers could be equal but the way that they utilize it without stamina drain are remarkably different.

Again though, we are assuming that there bases are equal from character dialogue alone. Character dialogue is subjective. What is objective is what we can see. After all the exchanges between Base Vegeta and Base Cabba, what do we see? We see Cabba holding his arm in pain and panting for breath while Vegeta is smiling, looking back at Cabba. This is shown to us both in the anime and manga. If there bases are equal, why is Cabba holding his arm in pain and panting for breath? Super Saiyan is not even part of the equation right now. In the manga, Vegeta doesn't even say that they are exactly equal but rather Vegeta tells Cabba that he's suited for combat and makes the Saiyan race proud. He states that he can hold his own against him in his normal state the way he is now. Even after they turn Super Saiyan, Vegeta allows Cabba pummel him. At the end, he smiles, implying he was holding back the entire time. You can interpret it as what you want and take character dialogues literally similar to taking Burter saying he's the fastest person in the universe literally rather than feats shown by other characters that contradict dialogue.

This isn't the case for higher grades of other forms because we have no information about them except from feats. Both Vegeta and Trunks have primarily trained their SSJ2 forms. Neither of them ever transformed into SSJ3. Enraged SSJ2 Vegeta after a Bulma slap caused him to surpass SSJ3 Goku. Beerus even stated that Vegeta gave him a better fight than Goku. Anger is a stimulus that can temporarily boost any Saiyan's power. SSB Goku upon learning that Goten and Chi Chi were killed by Black, got furious and temporarily got a boost of power. Though, who is to say anger isn't also boosting base? SSJ2 Trunks powered up to be on par with SSJ3 Goku in the manga. In the anime, Trunks powered up even further to get a random new form, SS Rage, without any explanation. It can be reasoned that these are also higher grades of SSJ2 with a higher multiplier as well. In the anime, SSJ3 Goku beat SSJ2 Trunks. In the manga, Goku even went SSG temporarily which was overkill. So you're right, in this case, there can be higher multipliers for higher grades. Unfortunately, we would need a NEW guidebook to give us the multipliers for those higher grades. We don't have one. It doesn't mean that the fixed multipliers for forms we already have become obsolete. It means there are higher grades that yet have not been given a name. SSBE for example is a higher grade. SSJ2 at one point was considered Grade 5 Super Saiyan. It's all semantics. The point is that the original multipliers still stand and can still be used if you accept that there are higher grades with different multipliers.

Fusion is relevant to this discussion because ppl are always comparing SSG Goku to Buu saga Vegetto who's greater than SSJ3 Goku, and base Kefla. If you accept that SSJ3 has x400 multiplier, then you must accept Potara is A x B's power levels because they come from the same source and neither have ever been implied throughout the series. I see no one here doing this, hence why I'm calling out the double standards.

I think we can both agree, we've gone way past talking about what this thread topic was originally intended lol. The DBS anime already explicitly stated that the Potara fusion is greater than the sum of their parts as per Vados. I'm not going to quote it again since I already did above. This one factoid contradicts SEG and because of this reason, you believe that the entire book, should be discarded and is invalidated. That if a person uses the SEG and the DBS anime, it's a double standard. This is simply not true. The Chouzenshuu is a revised and updated version of the Daizenshuu. Books in general, get new editions, and errors get fixed and revised. Does that make the information that was not changed in the older editions completely wrong? No. There are many things in the Daizenshuu which are exactly the same. The DBS anime has not explicitly contradicted anything else shown in the SEG. It's not a double standard to use 1 factoid in an anime AND other information presented in the SEG. If there are two sources presenting conflicting information and one decides to use one source to support their argument while in another case, use the other source for another argument - THAT is a double standard.

Not my point. I was referring more to the idea that the idea of SSJ having a fixed multiplier is stupid and has never been implied in any of the official series, manga or animated. But then why do we see Vegetto going SSB-KK in the trailers up against base Cumber?

At this point, I'm arguing against myself because I already discussed this in another thread saying the exact same thing. Ignoring the fact, that is is not even Toriyama's manga but Yoshitaka Nagayama's, we are now stepping into another continuity. The full translations haven't even come out for the chapter. In the SDBH manga, Base Cumber is fighting SSB Vegetto evenly. In the anime, Base Cumber is fighting Vegetto Blue KK. Again, there are differences, so you have to be clear which source you will use? I don't even know how the anime will depict the same fight if Base Cumber is already that strong. Again, we are assuming that Base Cumber = SSB Vegetto primarily from what exactly? Feats in the manga? Did it explicitly state they are even? In DBS, Merged Zamasu fought Vegetto Blue also, does that mean they were equal? They exchanged blows in the anime. Merged Zamasu was immortal so just regenerated any damage. In the manga, the fight was much more one-sided with Vegetto dominating and not allowing even one hit from Zamasu.

All we know is that eventually, Cumber decides to go SSJ. He made that decision knowing that his current strength was insufficient. Vegetto in response, then states that it is time to get serious, and responds with Kaioken. If SSJ is a 50x and KK is a 20x multiplier, obviously, this would make absolutely no sense IF Base Cumber = SSB Vegetto. SSJ Cumber should be more than enough. Yet, Cumber goes on further to transform into an Oozaru, why? You can say plot hole no jutsu. You can say the writers don't care about multipliers. Objectively, have we seen that Vegetto Blue Kaioken x20 is stronger than SSJ Cumber? No. Did we see him beat Cumber? No. All we see is that Cumber makes the decision to transform into Oozaru. There could be many reasons for this. One reason is just for story and for entertainment, not at all related to power scaling. Perhaps the author wants to just show us Oozaru for fun or maybe Cumber will go into SSJ4. Another reason is that Cumber wants to show off. Another could be that their bases weren't in fact equal to begin with but that we assumed they were just like with Vegeta=Cabba or Merged Zamasu = Vegetto. All of that aside, none of it directly contradicts that SSJ = 50x and that KK is up to 20x.

Basically, you want to believe that Dragon Ball is a kids show and there should not be any logic behind it, that it is full of plot holes and inconsistencies, and therefore, futile to power scale at all. Characters will just be as strong as they need to be for plot. There's no numerical way to quantify them. The Super Saiyan multipliers are all outdated and should be discarded. You have a right to your own opinion and perspective. I used to think exactly like this once. I'm not stating you are wrong and in some points, the story will do what it needs to do for entertainment and not logic. You want to believe in this so much however, that when another person's perspective or headcannon tries to introduce logic that tries to make sense of it, you'll immediately discard it.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Like 1,000,000x IMO. Goku has gotten enough of a boost that even his base self can solo Z. Plus being able to blow up half the universe is pretty insane when Vegetto probably was a Galaxy Buster at the absolute best.