Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.
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CTAkuma
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by CTAkuma » Sun Sep 16, 2018 12:22 pm
PFM18 wrote:It was stated that it had "God-like power" which obviously refers to God Ki.
Nope, there is no evidence for it referring to God Ki, this is an association fallacy
Then, Goku was not sensed in Base in the movie. The fact that his Base has God Ki is the entire point of the term "Saiyan Beyond God" existing. If it was just a really strong Base, there would be no point in having a name for it, because the mechanics would be the same. When Goku came out of the ROSAT and his Base was really strong did they come up with a new name for his Base? No. The fact that it wasn't sensed in the RoF movie shows this. If you can find where Goku was sensed during RoF, then that would disprove my point. But that isn't going to happen.
Krillin and Gohan sensing his Ki clearly, Also they have sensed his god essense before
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CTAkuma
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by CTAkuma » Sun Sep 16, 2018 12:28 pm
Anyways unless you have something else to say this repeats itself ad nauseum, so i'm going offline, just PM me and i will reply later, also isn't a good idea to further clog this thread
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PFM18
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by PFM18 » Sun Sep 16, 2018 12:30 pm
CTAkuma wrote:PFM18 wrote:It was stated that it had "God-like power" which obviously refers to God Ki.
Nope, there is no evidence for it referring to God Ki, this is an association fallacy
Then, Goku was not sensed in Base in the movie. The fact that his Base has God Ki is the entire point of the term "Saiyan Beyond God" existing. If it was just a really strong Base, there would be no point in having a name for it, because the mechanics would be the same. When Goku came out of the ROSAT and his Base was really strong did they come up with a new name for his Base? No. The fact that it wasn't sensed in the RoF movie shows this. If you can find where Goku was sensed during RoF, then that would disprove my point. But that isn't going to happen.
Krillin and Gohan sensing his Ki clearly, Also they have sensed his god essense before
I'm so confused. Do you read what I say? Like honestly. You keep repeating yourself and saying things as though they refute my point when I literally never said otherwise and I have used those same things to reinforce my point so I don't know why you keep failing to read what I am saying.
Obviously "God-like power" refers to God Ki. call it whatever you want, fallacy or whatever, but it couldn't be any more clear that refers to God Ki. They never sensed him in the movie and this reinforces that. The fact that he is sensed in DBS shows that this was retconned. I am baffled that you keep taking quotes from DBS as though this refutes my point when it is literally part of my argument this entire time. Find me a scene where they sense his Base
in the movie. They don't. Because he has God Ki in the RoF movie. In Super, he does not. So they sense him. This is very simple
Your translations are wrong for the Krillin dialogue by the way. The official translations read:
"Unlike with Beerus, I sense a real indescribablel fear right now"
He says nothing of whether this is the strongest he has ever seen them.
CTAkuma wrote:Anyways unless you have something else to say this repeats itself ad nauseum, so i'm going offline, just PM me and i will reply later, also isn't a good idea to further clog this thread
Yeah it is going in circles because you don't take the time to read my posts. It is very frustrating
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CTAkuma
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by CTAkuma » Sun Sep 16, 2018 12:36 pm
PFM18 wrote:I'm so confused. Do you read what I say? Like honestly. You keep repeating yourself and saying things as though they refute my point when I literally never said otherwise and I have used those same things to reinforce my point so I don't know why you keep failing to read what I am saying.
I do respond directly and showed images from Rof arc in super where Gohan said "What an enormous Ki" and Gohan and Krillin being able to sense him in God essense, i feel like you are completly missing the point of some of the images or statements i show to you
Obviously "God-like power" refers to God Ki. call it whatever you want, fallacy or whatever, but it couldn't be any more clear that refers to God Ki.
Unless it has been directly stated this is an association fallacy or Naming Fallacy, since you are going through assumptions of it referring to God Ki though not showing statements to prove it being the case
Yeah it is going in circles because you don't take the time to read my posts. It is very frustrating
I agree, no hard feelings, PM me please if you want to continue this, otherwise we are done
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p-hyvo
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by p-hyvo » Sun Sep 16, 2018 12:49 pm
SSJgogeto wrote:He's probably stronger than SS3 Goku. I don't know exactly the gap between Goku and Gotenks, but I like to think Piccolo can be as strong as the little fusion.
totally no sensa. base Goku in dbs is stronger than super vegetto in z, and during the training piccolo ha demonstrated to be only a little waker than base Goku. moreover, piccolo trained and has super namekian, making him surely a low god- high ssj3 tier
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SSJgogeto
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by SSJgogeto » Sun Sep 16, 2018 3:44 pm
Actually it would make sense, but that depends of your point of view.
If you think Goku and Vegeta just have extremely powerful base forms, then no, the sentence would not make sense. However, if you believe Goku and Vegeta can use Beyond God and their base forms are more or less the same of the beginning of Super, then yes, the sentence would make sense.
"But when Goku and Piccolo fought with each other..."
Did you guys ever stop to think they were just holding back? This is a very plausible possibility, you know.
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PerhapsTheOtherOne
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by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sun Sep 16, 2018 4:14 pm
SSJgogeto wrote:Actually it would make sense, but that depends of your point of view.
If you think Goku and Vegeta just have extremely powerful base forms, then no, the sentence would not make sense. However, if you believe Goku and Vegeta can use Beyond God and their base forms are more or less the same of the beginning of Super, then yes, the sentence would make sense.
"But when Goku and Piccolo fought with each other..."
Did you guys ever stop to think they were just holding back? This is a very plausible possibility, you know.
At the same time, though, that Demon Explosive Wave move was almost a mirror match for when Piccolo used that against Goku during the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai, and the two of them were dead even back then.
As well, earlier in DBS, when Goku had Delayed Ki Onset Disorder, he mentions to Piccolo that, in his weakened state, EVEN Piccolo could beat him now; he was in his base form, and nothing ever implied he meant transformations of the sort, which makes sense given how Goku could tussle with Frost physically while Piccolo couldn't.
Later on, Piccolo and base Gohan, whom himself was somewhat relative to base Goku after getting a lot stronger thanks to him and Piccolo training his Ultimate form together, were shown to fight as equal peers against Saonel and Pirina.
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SSJgogeto
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by SSJgogeto » Sun Sep 16, 2018 10:21 pm
Yeah, I thought about these things before. In the first case, the problem is Tien. If Piccolo was using all his power there then Tien would be a dead weight. However, considering the way the fight went, it seemed to me implied that his Kikoho would be effective against PIccolo.
In the second case, we do not know if this disorder interferes in some way with the Goku's transformations. And in the third case, there is a possibility that they are conserving energy for future struggles, other fighters did this too.
However, it's clear to me that, as the anime allows for various kinds of interpretations these arguments may not be really convincing to many people.
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ZombieVito
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by ZombieVito » Mon Sep 17, 2018 3:39 pm
Stronger than anyone in Z with the posible exception of Super Saiyan Vegetto.
He's currently 7th strongest mortal of U7 if you count Broly.
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TobyS
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by TobyS » Tue Sep 18, 2018 11:54 am
In the manga he has to have surpassed a cell Jr by now, but not sure if he's past super perfect cell yet.
In the anime scaling makes no sense. He can't significantly hurt base Goku but can slap about a ss2 Gohan and hurt mystic Gohan who was a match for his dad at the same level of ss earlier when he was sleds trained...
This beyond god in base is inconsistent so much it fucks up scaling other characters.
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.
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PFM18
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by PFM18 » Thu Sep 20, 2018 7:53 am
TobyS wrote:
In the anime scaling makes no sense. He can't significantly hurt base Goku but can slap about a ss2 Gohan and hurt mystic Gohan who was a match for his dad at the same level of ss earlier when he was sleds trained...
There's nothing nonsensical about this. Goku was heavily suppressed against Gohan in their sparring match given he literally said so and it was a casual sparring match that was just part of a gag scene. This premise is based on the idea that Goku~Gohan in equivalent forms but this is factually incorrect.
A perfect example of people complaining about the scaling in DBS without bothering to actually understand what they are complaining about.
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TobyS
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by TobyS » Fri Sep 21, 2018 3:14 am
PFM18 wrote:TobyS wrote:
In the anime scaling makes no sense. He can't significantly hurt base Goku but can slap about a ss2 Gohan and hurt mystic Gohan who was a match for his dad at the same level of ss earlier when he was sleds trained...
There's nothing nonsensical about this. Goku was heavily suppressed against Gohan in their sparring match given he literally said so and it was a casual sparring match that was just part of a gag scene. This premise is based on the idea that Goku~Gohan in equivalent forms but this is factually incorrect.
A perfect example of people complaining about the scaling in DBS without bothering to actually understand what they are complaining about.
No need to be condescending about it, I simply don't remember Goku saying he was holding back against Han and if he did I'd have took it as “not using Blue” rather than suppress ss forms.
Edit:
https://youtu.be/H8gzUUr3wpE
He doesn't! He tells him not to hold back, they scrap in base, Gohan tells him off for still holding back. Goku says OK and they both go SS1 and fight with no mention of holding back.
The anime's just all over the place, this is a Gohan who started training with Pic after golden Freeza but then pre top exhibition they act like he hasn't.
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.
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PFM18
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by PFM18 » Fri Sep 21, 2018 8:58 am
TobyS wrote:PFM18 wrote:TobyS wrote:
In the anime scaling makes no sense. He can't significantly hurt base Goku but can slap about a ss2 Gohan and hurt mystic Gohan who was a match for his dad at the same level of ss earlier when he was sleds trained...
There's nothing nonsensical about this. Goku was heavily suppressed against Gohan in their sparring match given he literally said so and it was a casual sparring match that was just part of a gag scene. This premise is based on the idea that Goku~Gohan in equivalent forms but this is factually incorrect.
A perfect example of people complaining about the scaling in DBS without bothering to actually understand what they are complaining about.
No need to be condescending about it, I simply don't remember Goku saying he was holding back against Han and if he did I'd have took it as “not using Blue” rather than suppress ss forms.
Edit:
https://youtu.be/H8gzUUr3wpE
He doesn't! He tells him not to hold back, they scrap in base, Gohan tells him off for still holding back. Goku says OK and they both go SS1 and fight with no mention of holding back.
The anime's just all over the place, this is a Gohan who started training with Pic after golden Freeza but then pre top exhibition they act like he hasn't.
Well, they fight evenly in Base, Gohan accuses him of holding back and he admits to it, and then they fight as SSJs and they continue to fight evenly. The obvious implication is that Goku continued to be suppressed as a SSJ is it not? Otherwise, had he been suppressed in the first part of the squabble but not the 2nd, then naturally he would have gained an advantage in the second part of the boat but he didn't.
It is a gag scene anyway.