How powerful is current Piccolo?

[PFM18]

In Episode 75, SSJ Goku and SSJ Gohan had a (brief) sparring match, and were dead even.

But Goku was obviously suppressed and he admitted as much. They fought evenly in Base and Gohan asked something like "You're holding back aren't you?" and Goku admitted it, and then they both go SSJ and they continue to fight evenly. So Goku must have continued to be holding back for them to continue fighting evenly as SSJs. And this was a brief sparring session that amounted to a gag scene with Chi Chi

And intuitively speaking it doesn't make any sense for Gohan to be at that level since he has only been casually training since RoF and Goku absorbed the SSG power and got training with Whis. Especially since in their tag team fight Base Goku tanked Piccolo fairly easily and if he had been superior to SSJ2 Gohan who was relative to a SSJ2 Goku, then Base Goku would have been nothing to Piccolo. Base Goku is outrageously strong at this point being able to fodderize SSJ3 Gotenks among several other things that indicate his insane strength, and Gohan can't even access his Ultimate power.

I wouldn't necessarily ignore the context of Goku and Gohan's sparring match under the idea of it inconsequential given it ended with a "gag" involving Chi Chi. Goku was holding back initially to test Gohan in his base form, and then powered up to SSJ, as did Gohan, and they fought more seriously. The damage they unintentionally caused to Goku's fleshly plowed farming field would indicate they were fighting much more seriously then they were in their base forms initially.

I can buy that Gohan, from off-screen training following the events of Resurrection F, at least in his base form, reached on par with Goku and Vegeta. I mean, honestely speaking, in terms of strength gains in Dragon Ball, it's always been roulette wheel. It may seem a bit of stretch for Gohan to get that in the time that he did, but it's not out of realm of possibility. Especially after the events of Resurrection F opened an almighty can of worms in regards to gains in training. Lest we forget Freeza reaching God-tier in 4 months. And that was Toriyama's idea.

If they fought evenly when Goku was fighting in Base, and then Goku wasn't holding back as a SSJ, then wouldn't Goku have won instead of it being even? If Goku admitted to holding back, they fought in Base, then they both went SSJ and continued to fight evenly then I think it follows that Goku continued to be holding back. From Goku's perspective, he just wants to have a fun sparring session with his son so it would make sense if he suppressed himself down to his son's level.

[Lord Beerus]

But Goku was obviously suppressed and he admitted as much. They fought evenly in Base and Gohan asked something like "You're holding back aren't you?" and Goku admitted it, and then they both go SSJ and they continue to fight evenly. So Goku must have continued to be holding back for them to continue fighting evenly as SSJs. And this was a brief sparring session that amounted to a gag scene with Chi Chi

And intuitively speaking it doesn't make any sense for Gohan to be at that level since he has only been casually training since RoF and Goku absorbed the SSG power and got training with Whis. Especially since in their tag team fight Base Goku tanked Piccolo fairly easily and if he had been superior to SSJ2 Gohan who was relative to a SSJ2 Goku, then Base Goku would have been nothing to Piccolo. Base Goku is outrageously strong at this point being able to fodderize SSJ3 Gotenks among several other things that indicate his insane strength, and Gohan can't even access his Ultimate power.

I wouldn't necessarily ignore the context of Goku and Gohan's sparring match under the idea of it inconsequential given it ended with a "gag" involving Chi Chi. Goku was holding back initially to test Gohan in his base form, and then powered up to SSJ, as did Gohan, and they fought more seriously. The damage they unintentionally caused to Goku's fleshly plowed farming field would indicate they were fighting much more seriously then they were in their base forms initially.

I can buy that Gohan, from off-screen training following the events of Resurrection F, at least in his base form, reached on par with Goku and Vegeta. I mean, honestely speaking, in terms of strength gains in Dragon Ball, it's always been roulette wheel. It may seem a bit of stretch for Gohan to get that in the time that he did, but it's not out of realm of possibility. Especially after the events of Resurrection F opened an almighty can of worms in regards to gains in training. Lest we forget Freeza reaching God-tier in 4 months. And that was Toriyama's idea.

If they fought evenly when Goku was fighting in Base, and then Goku wasn't holding back as a SSJ, then wouldn't Goku have won instead of it being even? If Goku admitted to holding back, they fought in Base, then they both went SSJ and continued to fight evenly then I think it follows that Goku continued to be holding back. From Goku's perspective, he just wants to have a fun sparring session with his son so it would make sense if he suppressed himself down to his son's level.

Perhaps Gohan is just much stronger than some people want to give him credit for? Or... what's to say Gohan wasn't using all of his strength either until he powered up into SSJ like Goku did?

[CTAkuma]

Way stronger than people give him credit for, he kept up with and was able to damage characters, who in turn were able to damage other high ranking characters. Even if you heavily downplay Piccolo, he should be atleast stronger than BoG SSG Goku

[BlueBasilisk]

Perhaps Gohan is just much stronger than some people want to give him credit for? Or... what's to say Gohan wasn't using all of his strength either until he powered up into SSJ like Goku did?

Didn't Piccolo imply during their pre-TOP training that Gohan already had all that power within him and they just needed to break his blocks and bring it out?

[PFM18]

I wouldn't necessarily ignore the context of Goku and Gohan's sparring match under the idea of it inconsequential given it ended with a "gag" involving Chi Chi. Goku was holding back initially to test Gohan in his base form, and then powered up to SSJ, as did Gohan, and they fought more seriously. The damage they unintentionally caused to Goku's fleshly plowed farming field would indicate they were fighting much more seriously then they were in their base forms initially.

I can buy that Gohan, from off-screen training following the events of Resurrection F, at least in his base form, reached on par with Goku and Vegeta. I mean, honestely speaking, in terms of strength gains in Dragon Ball, it's always been roulette wheel. It may seem a bit of stretch for Gohan to get that in the time that he did, but it's not out of realm of possibility. Especially after the events of Resurrection F opened an almighty can of worms in regards to gains in training. Lest we forget Freeza reaching God-tier in 4 months. And that was Toriyama's idea.

If they fought evenly when Goku was fighting in Base, and then Goku wasn't holding back as a SSJ, then wouldn't Goku have won instead of it being even? If Goku admitted to holding back, they fought in Base, then they both went SSJ and continued to fight evenly then I think it follows that Goku continued to be holding back. From Goku's perspective, he just wants to have a fun sparring session with his son so it would make sense if he suppressed himself down to his son's level.

Perhaps Gohan is just much stronger than some people want to give him credit for? Or... what's to say Gohan wasn't using all of his strength either until he powered up into SSJ like Goku did?

Well there was no implication Gohan was holding back too. I guess it's possible but I don't see it. Also, there's not much reason to believe Gohan had gotten so strong.

The way I see it:

Full-power SSJ Goku>>>>>>>Suppressed SSJ Goku~SSJ Gohan>>Suppressed Base Goku~Base Gohan

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Stronger than Base Saiyans, at the very least he's words above his Z self. I'd personally say he can take out Gohan-Boo, but would get trounced by Super Vegetto.

[SSJgogeto]

Probably not, Ultimate Gohan was superior to him in their fight.

[PFM18]

Way stronger than people give him credit for, he kept up with and was able to damage characters, who in turn were able to damage other high ranking characters. Even if you heavily downplay Piccolo, he should be atleast stronger than BoG SSG Goku

nah he's weaker than current Base Goku who is weaker than BoG SSG

[CTAkuma]

Way stronger than people give him credit for, he kept up with and was able to damage characters, who in turn were able to damage other high ranking characters. Even if you heavily downplay Piccolo, he should be atleast stronger than BoG SSG Goku

nah he's weaker than current Base Goku who is weaker than BoG SSG

He was comparable to Frost who was comparable with SS Goku somewhat, trained with Gohan after that. End of the day is he isn't weaker than BoG Goku

[PFM18]

Way stronger than people give him credit for, he kept up with and was able to damage characters, who in turn were able to damage other high ranking characters. Even if you heavily downplay Piccolo, he should be atleast stronger than BoG SSG Goku

nah he's weaker than current Base Goku who is weaker than BoG SSG

He was comparable to Frost who kept up with SS Goku somewhat, trained with Gohan after that. He isn't weaker than BoG Goku

SSJ Goku completely dominated Frost and Piccolo fought a weakened version of Frost who was weakened considerably from having the crap getting beaten out of him after that.

current SSJ Goku>>BoG SSG Goku>current Base Goku

Even if Piccolo were on par with current Base Goku, he still wouldn't be as strong as BoG SSG. (He isn't.) Base Goku was fairly easily able to withstand Piccolo's attacks in their tag team session.

[CTAkuma]

SSJ Goku completely dominated Frost and Piccolo fought a weakened version of Frost who was weakened considerably from having the crap getting beaten out of him after that.

SS Goku had a 50x multiplier ontop of SSG power making him 50x SSG from the BoG which didn't immediately obliterate Frost, Frost couldn't oneshot Piccolo and Piccolo could keep up somewhat, meaning that even if Piccolo was lets say 40x weaker than Frost he would still be stronger than BoG Goku for atleast surviving blows from Frost which scales him to that level of power

current SSJ Goku>>BoG SSG Goku>current Base Goku

Goku took in the power of SSG into his base and fought against Beerus who claimed he was stronger than before i.e 50x SSG

Even if Piccolo were on par with current Base Goku, he still wouldn't be as strong as BoG SSG. (He isn't.) Base Goku was fairly easily able to withstand Piccolo's attacks in their tag team session.

Again base Goku has the power of SSG in his base without the god ki and got Zenkai boosts ontop of training after the BoG arc which both increase the saiyans base power considerably, so this doesn't really matter

[PFM18]

SS Goku had a 50x multiplier ontop of SSG power making him 50x SSG from the BoG

Yeah no he didn't. There's no statement or anything explicit of any kind that shows Base Goku was stronger than SSG. So there's no real reason to believe Base Goku>SSG Goku. It was stated that SSJ~SSG by both Goku and Beerus, so there's no reason to believe that he is 50x stronger than SSG as a SSJ.

Goku took in the power of SSG into his base and fought against Beerus who claimed he was stronger than before i.e 50x SSG

Yeah you just kind of arbitrarily decided this. This "absorbed" verbatim isn't even used and a form is never specified, all we know is that it was stated that Goku had retained the power in such a way that his SSJ form was now as strong or stronger than SSG. (ie, not 50x SSG)

Again base Goku has the power of SSG in his base without the god ki

Again, no he doesn't.

[Berserker1921]

I believe he's gotten a lot stronger as base Goku barely withstood his explosive wave (Goku himself said this) and his special beam cannon was able to damage Saonel and Pirina.

I think he can easily defeat anyone from the Cell and Buu saga now, minus maybe Vegito.

I agree with this. everyone outside of maybe Vegetto

Too be honest he has to be at least a ssj2 level and best case, he is near super buu level. Which makes him a threat to many people during the ToP. However is nothing to god tier.

Buu arc SSJ2 tiers are absolutely nothing to current fighters in the ToP. You seem to imply "SSJ2 level" during the ToP arc and the Buu arc are at similar levels of power but that is certainly not the case.

If Krillin is forcing Goku to transform while his wife easily contends with an opponent, Tupper, who had that same Goku down for the count then I guess must mean they're stronger than Piccolo now.

Tupper caught Goku off guard was the point. He grabbed Goku while Goku wasn't expecting it. This says nothing of the comparison between 18 and Base Goku. I don't see Goku going SSJ once briefly against the Kienzan which is known for it's ability to damage people massively stronger than them, as enough evidence to conclude that Krillin>Base Goku.

Furthermore, what does that say about his Special Beam Cannon? To successfully perforate through two Namekians on the level of Saonel and Pirina -- both of whom were handling themselves well against Ultimate Gohan who had tussled with his father in blue at full power

Ultimate Gohan stated that he would go full-power when he realized they were more durable than he thought. Then, he easily defeated them. So there's no real implication that Piccolo is close to Ultimate Gohan. Also, Goku briefly fought with Gohan, but Goku was able to damage Toppo where Gohan couldn't, so it certainly appears that Goku didn't use SSB at full-power or at least that the brief squabble wasn't enough for Goku to display his superiority.(It was extremely short) So Gohan isn't as strong as SSB Goku in the first place.

Going from comparability with the Base Saiyans all the way to Super Saiyan Blue seems too absurd to be real.

That's because it isn't real. The makankosoppo is very powerful but it certainly doesn't bridge that large of a gap.

Ignore the DBS anime. Like all Toei DB stuff, it just does whatever it wants with power levels. Paradoxically, actual battle performance is not indicative of strength in Toei's productions. Anyone can fight anyone no matter how much stronger or weaker. You can no more trust that base Goku is stronger than Super Gotenks in Super than that base Goku is stronger than Super Vegeta in Movie 8, stronger than Ultimate Gohan in Buu's head, or stronger than Blue Vegeta against Hit.

The manga is clearer with power scaling and Piccolo's not implied to be any stronger there (he's not stated to be any stronger in the anime either, for that matter). In my opinion, Shin could still kick his ass. He was "dimensions" above Piccolo in the Buu arc.

This is getting ridiculous. You won't even allow people to discuss DBS anime scaling without discrediting it and attempting to invalidate it. Jesus christ dude, just let people discuss what they want. Also, the manga is certainly not clearer with power scaling it has blatantly contradictory scaling statements among other issues. It isn't the anime's fault that you misinterpret it at every turn

Listen what I meant was that Piccolo was pretty strong. However not a real threat to some of the fighters in the ToP. Only maybe 5-10 ToP fighters not including universe 7 were God levels or above. Piccolo could have taken out a lot of those weaker enemies. But didn’t because of plot. Best case he was below Frost level. As well as most of universe 7, who had at least 5 god level or greater heroes.

[PFM18]

I believe he's gotten a lot stronger as base Goku barely withstood his explosive wave (Goku himself said this) and his special beam cannon was able to damage Saonel and Pirina.

I think he can easily defeat anyone from the Cell and Buu saga now, minus maybe Vegito.

I agree with this. everyone outside of maybe Vegetto

Too be honest he has to be at least a ssj2 level and best case, he is near super buu level. Which makes him a threat to many people during the ToP. However is nothing to god tier.

Buu arc SSJ2 tiers are absolutely nothing to current fighters in the ToP. You seem to imply "SSJ2 level" during the ToP arc and the Buu arc are at similar levels of power but that is certainly not the case.

If Krillin is forcing Goku to transform while his wife easily contends with an opponent, Tupper, who had that same Goku down for the count then I guess must mean they're stronger than Piccolo now.

Tupper caught Goku off guard was the point. He grabbed Goku while Goku wasn't expecting it. This says nothing of the comparison between 18 and Base Goku. I don't see Goku going SSJ once briefly against the Kienzan which is known for it's ability to damage people massively stronger than them, as enough evidence to conclude that Krillin>Base Goku.

Furthermore, what does that say about his Special Beam Cannon? To successfully perforate through two Namekians on the level of Saonel and Pirina -- both of whom were handling themselves well against Ultimate Gohan who had tussled with his father in blue at full power

Ultimate Gohan stated that he would go full-power when he realized they were more durable than he thought. Then, he easily defeated them. So there's no real implication that Piccolo is close to Ultimate Gohan. Also, Goku briefly fought with Gohan, but Goku was able to damage Toppo where Gohan couldn't, so it certainly appears that Goku didn't use SSB at full-power or at least that the brief squabble wasn't enough for Goku to display his superiority.(It was extremely short) So Gohan isn't as strong as SSB Goku in the first place.

Going from comparability with the Base Saiyans all the way to Super Saiyan Blue seems too absurd to be real.

That's because it isn't real. The makankosoppo is very powerful but it certainly doesn't bridge that large of a gap.

Ignore the DBS anime. Like all Toei DB stuff, it just does whatever it wants with power levels. Paradoxically, actual battle performance is not indicative of strength in Toei's productions. Anyone can fight anyone no matter how much stronger or weaker. You can no more trust that base Goku is stronger than Super Gotenks in Super than that base Goku is stronger than Super Vegeta in Movie 8, stronger than Ultimate Gohan in Buu's head, or stronger than Blue Vegeta against Hit.

The manga is clearer with power scaling and Piccolo's not implied to be any stronger there (he's not stated to be any stronger in the anime either, for that matter). In my opinion, Shin could still kick his ass. He was "dimensions" above Piccolo in the Buu arc.

This is getting ridiculous. You won't even allow people to discuss DBS anime scaling without discrediting it and attempting to invalidate it. Jesus christ dude, just let people discuss what they want. Also, the manga is certainly not clearer with power scaling it has blatantly contradictory scaling statements among other issues. It isn't the anime's fault that you misinterpret it at every turn

Listen what I meant was that Piccolo was pretty strong. However not a real threat to some of the fighters in the ToP. Only maybe 5-10 ToP fighters not including universe 7 were God levels or above. Piccolo could have taken out a lot of those weaker enemies. But didn’t because of plot. Best case he was below Frost level. As well as most of universe 7, who had at least 5 god level or greater heroes.

All I'm saying is that Super Buu/Buu arc SSJ2s are a joke compared to ToP characters.

[CTAkuma]

Yeah you just kind of arbitrarily decided this. This "absorbed" verbatim isn't even used and a form is never specified, all we know is that it was stated that Goku had retained the power in such a way that his SSJ form was now as strong or stronger than SSG. (ie, not 50x SSG)

[PFM18]

Yeah you just kind of arbitrarily decided this. This "absorbed" verbatim isn't even used and a form is never specified, all we know is that it was stated that Goku had retained the power in such a way that his SSJ form was now as strong or stronger than SSG. (ie, not 50x SSG)

A) That is a very outdated interview it is from 2013 and doesn't really apply to Super clearly.
B) It still doesn't say anything about Base>SSG or that he "absorbed it into his Base" in such a way that his Base was as strong as SSG. He was as strong as SSG as a SSJ and that was it.
C) He absorbed the form itself in the movie in such a way that it was stated he couldn't/wouldn't use SSG in the future. In Super, he only absorbed the power he attained and not the form itself. Clearly, since he can still transform into a SSG. So again, this is invalid to this discussion.

[CTAkuma]

A) That is a very outdated interview it is from 2013 and doesn't really apply to Super clearly.
B) It still doesn't say anything about Base>SSG or that he "absorbed it into his Base" in such a way that his Base was as strong as SSG. He was as strong as SSG as a SSJ and that was it.
C) He absorbed the form itself in the movie in such a way that it was stated he couldn't/wouldn't use SSG in the future. In Super, he only absorbed the power he attained and not the form itself. Clearly, since he can still transform into a SSG. So again, this is invalid to this discussion.

A)So its against your headcanon?
B)No it literally said he made it his own Base=SSG, Beerus said Goku got stronger than before while he is fighting in Super Saiyan: SS after SSG absorbtion>SSG and we know SS is a 50x multiplier
C)Literally said that he absorbed the POWER, not the god ki left from SSG. If he transforms into SSG he will have a God Ki amplification

[PFM18]

A) That is a very outdated interview it is from 2013 and doesn't really apply to Super clearly.
B) It still doesn't say anything about Base>SSG or that he "absorbed it into his Base" in such a way that his Base was as strong as SSG. He was as strong as SSG as a SSJ and that was it.
C) He absorbed the form itself in the movie in such a way that it was stated he couldn't/wouldn't use SSG in the future. In Super, he only absorbed the power he attained and not the form itself. Clearly, since he can still transform into a SSG. So again, this is invalid to this discussion.

A)So its against your headcanon?
B)No it literally said he made it his own Base=SSG, Beerus said Goku got stronger than before while he is fighting in Super Saiyan: SS after SSG absorbtion>SSG and we know SS is a 50x multiplier
C)Literally said that he absorbed the POWER, not the god ki left from SSG. If he transforms into SSG he will have a God Ki amplification

It is invalid because it is outdated and only applies to the movies.

he made it his own. How the hell does that imply that Base=SSG? Goku said that he didn't notice a difference going from SSG->SSJ and if he absorbed it into his Base he would have noticed a 50x increase in power which obviously isn't the case. Yes, he surpassed it as a SSJ but that is as they kept fighting and he got stronger. Yes, SSJ after absorption>SSG, but this doesn't imply a 50x multiplier whatsoever, otherwise according to the movie verse and based on the interview being referenced, he would have surpassed Beerus which obviously isn't the case.

SSJ(post-ritual)>SSG>Base(post-ritual) is the obvious implication here.

He couldn't/wouldn't transform into a SSG based on what Toriyama said. This obviously isn't the case in Super because he only absorbed the power and not the form and was able to transform into the form later. Not even sure what you're point here is because you basically just repeated what I said.

[CTAkuma]

It is invalid because it is outdated and only applies to the movies.

he made it his own. How the hell does that imply that Base=SSG? Goku said that he didn't notice a difference going from SSG->SSJ and if he absorbed it into his Base he would have noticed a 50x increase in power which obviously isn't the case. Yes, he surpassed it as a SSJ but that is as they kept fighting and he got stronger. Yes, SSJ after absorption>SSG, but this doesn't imply a 50x multiplier whatsoever, otherwise according to the movie verse and based on the interview being referenced, he would have surpassed Beerus which obviously isn't the case.

SSJ(post-ritual)>SSG>Base(post-ritual) is the obvious implication here.

He couldn't/wouldn't transform into a SSG based on what Toriyama said. This obviously isn't the case in Super because he only absorbed the power and not the form and was able to transform into the form later.

I never said he absorbed the transformations in his base, he absorbed the power, reading comprehension. It's supplementiary material so it should be considered, coming from Toriyama's own explanation on how Goku achieved this power.

It doesn't contradict the series, since in the series itself, it referenced that they needed to absorb the power of SSG into their base.

"God like power without changing form" SSG power=Base, meaning SS Goku post absorbtion= 50xSSG power and this is carried out through in super so it doesn't contradict Beerus power

[ricky84]

Piccolo since the ToP is about on par with Goku and Vegeta's base forms. Meaning he could solo all of Z and GT by this point.

He's weaker than current Frost and current A18 though (who beat Giant Ribrianne, who in her regular state was on par with a full powered, serious Base Goku), but Piccolo is much stronger than a lot of folks give him credit for.