Does Androids being stronger than Super Saiyans ruin the believability of they Cell arc?

[Ripper 30]

many people don't like how andriods were made stronger than Super Saiyans and Freeza who was supposed to be the strongest in the Universe at that time. since Freeza despite being already a strong being and getting cyborg enhancement was no match for trunks in ssj but Android 17 and 18 being normal human with cyborg enhancement were stronger than Super Saiyans, or Android 16 who was a complete robot, what do you think?

[Kaboom]

Rather than get too caught up in the exact whys and hows, I prefer to think of it along more thematic lines.

Freeza was the strongest natural being. The Androids and Cell were the strongest beings born from science and technology. Majin Boo was the strongest being born from magic. Now we also have the Angels and Destroyer Gods, the strongest cosmically-powered beings. And all along the way we have the Super Saiyan, the legendary "strongest warrior in the universe," perpetually becoming even stronger to match all these different escalating powers.

Of course some parts of that outlook have been recently undermined by stuff that Super and other newer material have done (like Freeza instantly pulling his ass into the top cosmic ranks), but the general idea still hold true.

[RandomGuy96]

many people don't like how andriods were made stronger than Super Saiyans and Freeza who was supposed to be the strongest in the Universe at that time.

Why didn't these same people have a problem with Freeza being made stronger than Vegeta who was supposed to be the strongest in the universe at that time?

[sunsetshimmer]

many people don't like how andriods were made stronger than Super Saiyans and Freeza who was supposed to be the strongest in the Universe at that time.

Why didn't these same people have a problem with Freeza being made stronger than Vegeta who was supposed to be the strongest in the universe at that time?

Frieza was well known alien galactic emperor even feared by King Kai.
#17 and #18 were some earthling teenagers turned into robots and surpassing Frieza and form that was meant to be a legend.

I guess that's a huge difference.

[RandomGuy96]

many people don't like how andriods were made stronger than Super Saiyans and Freeza who was supposed to be the strongest in the Universe at that time.

Why didn't these same people have a problem with Freeza being made stronger than Vegeta who was supposed to be the strongest in the universe at that time?

Frieza was well known alien galactic emperor even feared by King Kai.
#17 and #18 were some earthling teenagers turned into robots and surpassing Frieza and form that was meant to be a legend.

Vegeta was a well known galactic conqueror, the strongest warrior of the strongest warrior race, the strongest in the universe, and even feared by King Kai.
Freeza was a sloppy retcon taking Vegeta's cred with literally no explanation for why he was never mentioned in the previous arc or why he was so strong, surpassing Vegeta and the warrior who was trained by the universe's highest god, making use of several dangerous divine power-ups that no one else had ever mastered.

I don't see the difference. If anything, Freeza has less reason to be as strong as he is than the androids do.

[Lionel]

In Freeza's defence, you could dispute that Vegeta's frustrated egoistic worldview of the hierarchical structure in Saiyan society being disrupted by Goku's impertinence caused him to mentally realise that the principles of the most powerful warrior race in the universe was being disrupted. Freeza and his elite subordinates may be stronger than the Saiyans on an individual basis, but the Saiyan species is hailed as being a group that thrives in combat and is capable of rapidly growing in strength.

I agree about the general sentiment regarding the cyborgs. It was a flimsily executed introduction of characters who had no rhyme or reasoning for being so powerful. But due to the nature of Toriyama's psyche compelling him to make every villain that comes afterwards be stronger than the previous, they had to be made to stand on the topmost pedestal at the time, despite it throwing caution and a sense of rationality out the window. Maybe if Toriyama had taken the time to carefully explain how Gero was able to successfully power up his cyborgs through acquisition of advanced alien technology from the ruins of Freeza's ship coupled with some type of chimera genetic experimentation using Freeza's DNA to enhance their strength, you might have some justification for it then.

[theherodjl]

My own headcanon is that a multiversal entity or force that represents destiny has allowed challenges for the Z Senshi to keep getting stronger so that the heroes of Earth could in-turn become stronger, and fulfill a purpose that has either already come & gone or has yet to happen; its very plausible with how the Z Senshi across multiple timelines/alternate universes have succeeded in battles that were otherwise unbeatable without some plot-device power-up/deus ex machina solution.
Knowing how the series' eventual gag nature, It'll probably just be a scene reminiscent of The Wizard of Oz where the Z Senshi appear before this being/force, and then it turns out to be Toribot pretending to be some fiery head that is being projected by a booth behind them.

[CaroKami]

Does random aliens being stronger than Saiyans, which were stated to be the strongest race of warriors in the entire universe, ruin the believability of the Freeza arc?

I feel like people only have a problem with this because they're humans. If they were aliens created by some alien scientist on a far away world in the darkest corners of the universe or something, no one would have a problem with it because everything cool and powerful MUST come from outer space.

Nah, Gero was just a "brilliant scientist" who was obsessed with killing Goku. That's all the explanation you need.

[OhHiRenan]

If Earthlings like Kuririn and Tenshinhan can become super strong, I can totally buy the idea of an Earthling like Dr. Gero being super smart to the point where he can create an artificial human capable of surpassing the naturally strongest being in the universe.

[TheBigBoy]

Isn't the whole thing where antagonists become almost arbitrarily stronger than the heroes pretty common in this type of work?

Like in Yu Yu Hakusho, don't a ton of demons show up at the very end of the series that are on par with the Three Kings, who are supposed to be the strongest people around by a fair margin?

For what it's worth, I can buy Gero discovering some sort of technology that makes the Androids way stronger than what they needed to be. Cell makes a bit more sense because of the fact he has everyone's DNA.

Even for Freeza's, huge gains during super. I can buy that his potential is relatively untapped and he's lazy as shit. At the time we meet him, he's 5 times stronger than his top soldier. And that's just in his base form. Why would he ever need to train?

Buu is easy. Magic can get away without any sort of restrictions.

[ricky84]

Dr. Gero creating Androids that are stronger than SSJs using information up to the Saiyan saga makes no sense whatsoever.

[ricky84]

Isn't the whole thing where antagonists become almost arbitrarily stronger than the heroes pretty common in this type of work?

Like in Yu Yu Hakusho, don't a ton of demons show up at the very end of the series that are on par with the Three Kings, who are supposed to be the strongest people around by a fair margin?

For what it's worth, I can buy Gero discovering some sort of technology that makes the Androids way stronger than what they needed to be. Cell makes a bit more sense because of the fact he has everyone's DNA.

Even for Freeza's, huge gains during super. I can buy that his potential is relatively untapped and he's lazy as shit. At the time we meet him, he's 5 times stronger than his top soldier. And that's just in his base form. Why would he ever need to train?

Buu is easy. Magic can get away without any sort of restrictions.

Yu Yu Hakusho actually give a good explanation why the millions of demons that could one hot Toguro didn't show up earlier.

Dr.Gero creating Cyborgs stronger than Super Saiyans or Final Form Freeza makes zero sense, considering that he stop researching the Z-fighters after the Saiyan saga (when Goku and friends were WAY weaker than even 1st form Freeza).

Cell and Buu are justifiable though.

[Wizard Sesame]

Really, it's only 16 that needs to be explained. Something akin to Moore's law can explain it if Android 8 wasn't so weak in comparison. If Android 8 was at let's say 50,000, and the power output of Gero's androids doubled with each new model, Android 16 would be at 12,800,000. But 8 was substantially weaker than that, so the math doesn't even come close.

[nosferatu]

i tell you why because z was never supposed to go that far. dont analyze any dragonball related show because its trash to the core. just enjoy it dont ask.

[theherodjl]

i tell you why because z was never supposed to go that far. dont analyze any dragonball related show because its trash to the core. just enjoy it dont ask.

What are you talking about? Akira Toriyama had planned for the series to go farther than the Android/Cell arc. Your response doesn't add to the In-Universe Discussion by dismissing everything, and insisting that nothing be questioned.

[PFM18]

Oh yes absolutely. It is hardly believable that some teenage robots could be stronger than the Galactic Emperor and the warriors of legend. But I don't really mind it. Of course, if this was in Super it would be torn to shreds for being an "asspull" and "bad power scaling" etc etc

[Ripper 30]

Oh yes absolutely. It is hardly believable that some teenage robots could be stronger than the Galactic Emperor and the warriors of legend. But I don't really mind it. Of course, if this was in Super it would be torn to shreds for being an "asspull" and "bad power scaling" etc etc

but then we also got to know vegeta isn't strongest in the Universe in Saiyan Arc and it was freeza in Namek Arc.

[nosferatu]

i tell you why because z was never supposed to go that far. dont analyze any dragonball related show because its trash to the core. just enjoy it dont ask.

What are you talking about? Akira Toriyama had planned for the series to go farther than the Android/Cell arc. Your response doesn't add to the In-Universe Discussion by dismissing everything, and insisting that nothing be questioned.

No. db and dbz end freeza that makes an awesome life story for goku of course hes deead at the end wheen the planet explodes. Everything affter that is mostly editor stuff. akira cant write more comedy based.