How Much Stronger Is Whis Than Beerus In Light Of Recent/Upcoming Events?

[theherodjl]

If Toriyama's original figure of Whis' power being a mere 1.5x of Beerus still holds up then Whis is inevitably going to be outclassed by either Goku & Vegeta or a new villain with how the latest material is being presented. Seemingly, there are no plans for this to happen since Whis(and other Angels) represent a level that is firmly above the Hakaishin which indicates that the original 1.5x figure is now a thing of the past, and that Whis is stronger than a mere Beerus & a half, but by how much though? Would it be a more modest figure, perhaps as high as x5 of Beerus? Or are we looking at a grander figure of x10 minimum or more?

[Polyphase Avatron]

I doubt an actual number will ever be stated.

[shadowfox87]

If you're saying that Whis is only 1.5x stronger than Beerus because of Toriyama's original comment of 6, 10, and 15, that's outdated. If you think of 6, 10, and 15 as a linear scale, it will never work. Just doing a Kaioken x20 for Goku will give 6x20 = 120. Rather, I did treat these numbers as log scales. Hence, the difference between Beerus and Whis is 10^(15-10) = 100,000x or 10^5. Log scales are used for pH and magnitudes of earthquakes. For example, coffee has a pH of 5 and lemon juice has a pH of 2. Does that mean coffee is 2.5x more basic than lemon juice? No, rather it means it is 10*(5-2) = 1000x more basic than lemon juice making lemon juice 1000x more acidic than coffee. That's the only way that scale is going to work. Obviously, this is all headcanon and I don't expect Toriyama to be thinking about log scales when he said that comment. However, he threw out an arbitrary scale for us so if we can use that scale with something else, then why not? You can check out the log scale in my sig for more info. So far the scale has worked and already predicted Broly > Beerus and SSBE = SSB KK x20 = CSSB.

[theherodjl]

If you're saying that Whis is only 1.5x stronger than Beerus because of Toriyama's original comment of 6, 10, and 15, that's outdated. If you think of 6, 10, and 15 as a linear scale, it will never work. Just doing a Kaioken x20 for Goku will give 6x20 = 120. Rather, I did treat these numbers as log scales. Hence, the difference between Beerus and Whis is 10^(15-10) = 100,000x or 10^5. Log scales are used for pH and magnitudes of earthquakes. For example, coffee has a pH of 5 and lemon juice has a pH of 2. Does that mean coffee is 2.5x more basic than lemon juice? No, rather it means it is 10*(5-2) = 1000x more basic than lemon juice making lemon juice 1000x more acidic than coffee. That's the only way that scale is going to work. Obviously, this is all headcanon and I don't expect Toriyama to be thinking about log scales when he said that comment. However, he threw out an arbitrary scale for us so if we can use that scale with something else, then why not? You can check out the log scale in my sig for more info. So far the scale has worked and already predicted Broly > Beerus and SSBE = SSB KK x20 = CSSB.

100,000x seems a bit high as far as just general strength goes, but as long as its a figure that prevents Goku & Vegeta from overcoming it after just another arc then I'm all for it. Whis & his kind possess some degree of reality-altering abilities so maybe that pertains to the level of their strength as well? Whis might just be choosing to be 1.5x Beerus for the moment, but if he needs to output more then he might be able to add a couple zeroes on to the end of that figure; reality warpers are only bound by where their comprehension/imagination ends.

[shadowfox87]

If you're saying that Whis is only 1.5x stronger than Beerus because of Toriyama's original comment of 6, 10, and 15, that's outdated. If you think of 6, 10, and 15 as a linear scale, it will never work. Just doing a Kaioken x20 for Goku will give 6x20 = 120. Rather, I did treat these numbers as log scales. Hence, the difference between Beerus and Whis is 10^(15-10) = 100,000x or 10^5. Log scales are used for pH and magnitudes of earthquakes. For example, coffee has a pH of 5 and lemon juice has a pH of 2. Does that mean coffee is 2.5x more basic than lemon juice? No, rather it means it is 10*(5-2) = 1000x more basic than lemon juice making lemon juice 1000x more acidic than coffee. That's the only way that scale is going to work. Obviously, this is all headcanon and I don't expect Toriyama to be thinking about log scales when he said that comment. However, he threw out an arbitrary scale for us so if we can use that scale with something else, then why not? You can check out the log scale in my sig for more info. So far the scale has worked and already predicted Broly > Beerus and SSBE = SSB KK x20 = CSSB.

100,000x seems a bit high as far as just general strength goes, but as long as its a figure that prevents Goku & Vegeta from overcoming it after just another arc then I'm all for it. Whis & his kind possess some degree of reality-altering abilities so maybe that pertains to the level of their strength as well? Whis might just be choosing to be 1.5x Beerus for the moment, but if he needs to output more then he might be able to add a couple zeroes on to the end of that figure; reality warpers are only bound by where their comprehension/imagination ends.

It seems high but the math works out. Given all of Goku's upgrades so far, even with UI, it prevents him from overcoming Whis. Remember that Whis karate chopped Beerus in a 1-hit KO and that Whis already knows UI and uses it voluntarily. We have barely seen the tip of the iceberg for Whis or any of the Angels.

[theherodjl]

It seems high but the math works out. Given all of Goku's upgrades so far, even with UI, it prevents him from overcoming Whis. Remember that Whis karate chopped Beerus in a 1-hit KO and that Whis already knows UI and uses it voluntarily. We have barely seen the tip of the iceberg for Whis or any of the Angels.

I'd really like to think that Beerus with the Kaio-ken x20 might be able to reach even 1% of Whis' power, it would be ridiculous if Whis would just be like "Lord Beerus, please! Even if you used the Kaio-ken x100, you couldn't even match 1% of my strength!" or something like that.
Whis knocking out Beerus with a chop isn't so surprising in itself: Piccolo with a power level less than 1/20th of Freeza's 50% power was enough to send him flying into the ocean from a blindsiding blow. If Beerus wasn't paying attention(like he wasn't when Whis chopped him on more than one occasion) then Whis should totally be able to KO him with 1.5x greater strength.

[shadowfox87]

It seems high but the math works out. Given all of Goku's upgrades so far, even with UI, it prevents him from overcoming Whis. Remember that Whis karate chopped Beerus in a 1-hit KO and that Whis already knows UI and uses it voluntarily. We have barely seen the tip of the iceberg for Whis or any of the Angels.

I'd really like to think that Beerus with the Kaio-ken x20 might be able to reach even 1% of Whis' power, it would be ridiculous if Whis would just be like "Lord Beerus, please! Even if you used the Kaio-ken x100, you couldn't even match 1% of my strength!" or something like that.
Whis knocking out Beerus with a chop isn't so surprising in itself: Piccolo with a power level less than 1/20th of Freeza's 50% power was enough to send him flying into the ocean from a blindsiding blow. If Beerus wasn't paying attention(like he wasn't when Whis chopped him on more than one occasion) then Whis should totally be able to KO him with 1.5x greater strength.

Well that was a surprise hit from Piccolo to Freeza and it barely did anything as Freeza just got back up. Even after Freeza got hit by the full force of the Spirit Bomb, it did nothing. Getting a surprise hit is one thing but getting hit until you are unconscious is another. So if I were to use log scaling, then Beerus = 10^10 and Whis is = 10^15, so Beerus with Kaioken x100 would be Beerus = 10^10 x 100 = 10^12 --> 12, which is still lower than Whis. If you take Goku as an SSB as an 8, then if Goku did Kaioken x100, it would be 10^8 x100 -->10^10-->10, which is equal to Beerus. Remember also that the difference between SSJ Goku and Freeza 100% on Namek was only 1.25, so a 1.5 difference between Whis and Beerus would make absolutely no sense.

[theherodjl]

Well that was a surprise hit from Piccolo to Freeza and it barely did anything as Freeza just got back up. Even after Freeza got hit by the full force of the Spirit Bomb, it did nothing. Getting a surprise hit is one thing but getting hit until you are unconscious is another. So if I were to use log scaling, then Beerus = 10^10 and Whis is = 10^15, so Beerus with Kaioken x100 would be Beerus = 10^10 x 100 = 10^12 --> 12, which is still lower than Whis. If you take Goku as an SSB as an 8, then if Goku did Kaioken x100, it would be 10^8 x100 -->10^10-->10, which is equal to Beerus.

Don't forget about how SSJ2 Goku was KO'd by Majin Vegeta with a surprise hit after turning his back. Each time we've heard Whis speak about hitting Beerus, he always mentions how he gave/gives Beerus a chop(seen to the back of the head/neck): if SSJ2 Goku can be KO'd by someone about his strength, I'm not seeing a difference here with Beerus not being aware, and with Whis being a bit stronger. Whis can presumably alter his power without sparking up an aura due to UI so he could go from 1-100% in an instant.
TBH, 100,000x Beerus' strength really seems like a figure that Zeno would be in possession of. Since Beerus is capable of annihilating a universe with his own Ki then Whis is capable of destroying the 12 universes from that figure, and with Zeno being some huge amount more powerful than Whis then it sort of goes into the tier of characters from comics destroying billions of dimensions/universes; it would be really nice if DB was above that kind of ridiculousness.

[shadowfox87]

Well that was a surprise hit from Piccolo to Freeza and it barely did anything as Freeza just got back up. Even after Freeza got hit by the full force of the Spirit Bomb, it did nothing. Getting a surprise hit is one thing but getting hit until you are unconscious is another. So if I were to use log scaling, then Beerus = 10^10 and Whis is = 10^15, so Beerus with Kaioken x100 would be Beerus = 10^10 x 100 = 10^12 --> 12, which is still lower than Whis. If you take Goku as an SSB as an 8, then if Goku did Kaioken x100, it would be 10^8 x100 -->10^10-->10, which is equal to Beerus.

Don't forget about how SSJ2 Goku was KO'd by Majin Vegeta with a surprise hit after turning his back. Each time we've heard Whis speak about hitting Beerus, he always mentions how he gave/gives Beerus a chop(seen to the back of the head/neck): if SSJ2 Goku can be KO'd by someone about his strength, I'm not seeing a difference here with Beerus not being aware, and with Whis being a bit stronger. Whis can presumably alter his power without sparking up an aura due to UI so he could go from 1-100% in an instant.
TBH, 100,000x Beerus' strength really seems like a figure that Zeno would be in possession of. Since Beerus is capable of annihilating a universe with his own Ki then Whis is capable of destroying the 12 universes from that figure, and with Zeno being some huge amount more powerful than Whis then it sort of goes into the tier of characters from comics destroying billions of dimensions/universes; it would be really nice if DB was above that kind of ridiculousness.

Perfect Cell can destroy a solar system, Beerus can destroy a single universe, and Zeno can destroy all universes with a snap. Like I said, if you don't use 100,000, then the multipliers will not work. If you use the scale as linear, then just a Kaioken x2 would make Goku > Beerus and that's from BoG. Sure, characters like Goku with their guard down have been shown to get hurt so Majin Vegeta did knock Goku unconscious when not looking. However, the gap between Whis and Beerus is higher than Goku and Beerus and this is during BoG. Whis can use his pinky finger to block a punch from Beerus at full power. A 100,000x for Zeno would be too little. The Daishinkan himself would be much higher, possibly 50 in a log scale with Zeno being at a 100. Whis said he couldn't even touch Daishinkan's feet if he wanted to. Goku with UI is still lower than Whis but higher than Jiren, who should be higher than Beerus. Sure, people are going to say that Jiren > Belmoud but Whis said that Jiren is the mortal that even a God of Destruction cannot defeat and that's considering all 12 universes, even the 4 that were excluded.

[theherodjl]

Perfect Cell can destroy a solar system, Beerus can destroy a single universe, and Zeno can destroy all universes with a snap. Like I said, if you don't use 100,000, then the multipliers will not work. If you use the scale as linear, then just a Kaioken x2 would make Goku > Beerus and that's from BoG. Sure, characters like Goku with their guard down have been shown to get hurt so Majin Vegeta did knock Goku unconscious when not looking. However, the gap between Whis and Beerus is higher than Goku and Beerus and this is during BoG. Whis can use his pinky finger to block a punch from Beerus at full power. A 100,000x for Zeno would be too little. The Daishinkan himself would be much higher, possibly 50 in a log scale with Zeno being at a 100. Whis said he couldn't even touch Daishinkan's feet if he wanted to. Goku with UI is still lower than Whis but higher than Jiren, who should be higher than Beerus. Sure, people are going to say that Jiren > Belmoud but Whis said that Jiren is the mortal that even a God of Destruction cannot defeat and that's considering all 12 universes, even the 4 that were excluded.

Beerus is way stronger in DBS than how he was depicted in the BOG film. In the manga, SSJBC Vegeta was unable to hurt Beerus(just annoy him), and Vegeta by that point was many-fold greater than Goku was as a SSJG against Beerus. The anime doesn't quite give us a straight answer as to what degree Beerus is above Goku & Vegeta, but we at least know that the ordinary level of their SSJB forms combined isn't enough to handle him. I'm really not seeing how Whis >>> Beerus while Beerus > SSJB Goku & Vegeta here. There's an absence of evidence to justify such a figure. SSJ Goku managed to stop SSJ Trunks' sword strikes with just his finger, but it's pretty obvious that SSJ Goku was NOT 100,000x stronger than SSJ Trunks.

[Dagon]

If you're saying that Whis is only 1.5x stronger than Beerus because of Toriyama's original comment of 6, 10, and 15, that's outdated. If you think of 6, 10, and 15 as a linear scale, it will never work. Just doing a Kaioken x20 for Goku will give 6x20 = 120. Rather, I did treat these numbers as log scales. Hence, the difference between Beerus and Whis is 10^(15-10) = 100,000x or 10^5. Log scales are used for pH and magnitudes of earthquakes. For example, coffee has a pH of 5 and lemon juice has a pH of 2. Does that mean coffee is 2.5x more basic than lemon juice? No, rather it means it is 10*(5-2) = 1000x more basic than lemon juice making lemon juice 1000x more acidic than coffee. That's the only way that scale is going to work. Obviously, this is all headcanon and I don't expect Toriyama to be thinking about log scales when he said that comment. However, he threw out an arbitrary scale for us so if we can use that scale with something else, then why not? You can check out the log scale in my sig for more info. So far the scale has worked and already predicted Broly > Beerus and SSBE = SSB KK x20 = CSSB.

Toriyama is not the kind of guy to put as much thought into the power scale as you do, to the point of using logarithmic scaling.

[Ssjcell]

I see this on a sliding scale because of Goku's strength in Battle of the Gods Ark beerus had to continuously train to keep up with Gokus strength which continually gets better while whis is training with Vegeta and Goku. Therefore beerus is always get stronger at the same Pace as Goku and Vegeta and Whis gets stronger at the same Pace as beerus and Goku and Vegeta.

[shadowfox87]

If you're saying that Whis is only 1.5x stronger than Beerus because of Toriyama's original comment of 6, 10, and 15, that's outdated. If you think of 6, 10, and 15 as a linear scale, it will never work. Just doing a Kaioken x20 for Goku will give 6x20 = 120. Rather, I did treat these numbers as log scales. Hence, the difference between Beerus and Whis is 10^(15-10) = 100,000x or 10^5. Log scales are used for pH and magnitudes of earthquakes. For example, coffee has a pH of 5 and lemon juice has a pH of 2. Does that mean coffee is 2.5x more basic than lemon juice? No, rather it means it is 10*(5-2) = 1000x more basic than lemon juice making lemon juice 1000x more acidic than coffee. That's the only way that scale is going to work. Obviously, this is all headcanon and I don't expect Toriyama to be thinking about log scales when he said that comment. However, he threw out an arbitrary scale for us so if we can use that scale with something else, then why not? You can check out the log scale in my sig for more info. So far the scale has worked and already predicted Broly > Beerus and SSBE = SSB KK x20 = CSSB.

Toriyama is not the kind of guy to put as much thought into the power scale as you do, to the point of using logarithmic scaling.

Of course not which is why I literally stated it in the paragraph you quoted me on. Powerscaling is about extrapolating and making sense of something given the little info we have. It's not meant to be fact but headcanon. Nobody expects Toriyama to be using log scales.

[shadowfox87]

Beerus is way stronger in DBS than how he was depicted in the BOG film. In the manga, SSJBC Vegeta was unable to hurt Beerus(just annoy him), and Vegeta by that point was many-fold greater than Goku was as a SSJG against Beerus. The anime doesn't quite give us a straight answer as to what degree Beerus is above Goku & Vegeta, but we at least know that the ordinary level of their SSJB forms combined isn't enough to handle him. I'm really not seeing how Whis >>> Beerus while Beerus > SSJB Goku & Vegeta here. There's an absence of evidence to justify such a figure. SSJ Goku managed to stop SSJ Trunks' sword strikes with just his finger, but it's pretty obvious that SSJ Goku was NOT 100,000x stronger than SSJ Trunks.

I already took all that into consideration. As I told you previously, if you keep Beerus = 10 using a log scale and give SSBE = CCSB = SSB KK x20 Vegeta a 20x boost from SSB, it's only 9.3 which is less than Beerus. This is why log scale works. If you use 6, 10, and 15 as a linear scale, it will never work. SSJ3 not 100,000x stronger. Where did you get that from? SSJ2 Trunks ~ SSJ3 Goku. They were both about the same, near ~4.0.

[theherodjl]

I already took all that into consideration. As I told you previously, if you keep Beerus = 10 using a log scale and give SSBE = CCSB = SSB KK x20 Vegeta a 20x boost from SSB, it's only 9.3 which is less than Beerus. This is why log scale works. If you use 6, 10, and 15 as a linear scale, it will never work. SSJ3 not 100,000x stronger. Where did you get that from? SSJ2 Trunks ~ SSJ3 Goku. They were both about the same, near ~4.0.

?????
I really don't know if we're talking about the same thing anymore. All I know is that headcanon is a hell of a drug, I might need to lie down now.....