the Father-Son Kamehameha vs Super Perfect Cell

Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.

Moderators: General Help, Kanzenshuu Staff

thesilentofficial
Newbie
Posts: 10
Joined: Sun Apr 29, 2018 9:12 pm

the Father-Son Kamehameha vs Super Perfect Cell

Post by thesilentofficial » Mon Aug 20, 2018 3:45 am

So does anyone think Goku helped at all or was it just motivation from Goku that let Gohan unleash his inner power that he didn't think he had? Did the other Z-fighters make any impact when hitting Cell with their attacks or weren't they a factor? Just trying to understand how an INJURED Gohan could defeat a Super Perfect Cell (Apparently SSJ2 level after Zenkai). Did SP Cell really come back strong at all or what? Thoughts?

**I used the search bar but couldn't find any topic titles like this for some reason.**

User avatar
dbgtFO
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 7888
Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2010 5:07 pm
Contact:

Re: the Father-Son Kamehameha vs Super Perfect Cell

Post by dbgtFO » Mon Aug 20, 2018 3:50 am

Goku wasn't there at all. He was simply motivation. Goku being drawn there is just to visualize the concept for us, not to actually imply that Goku teleported there or was doing anything else than talking with Gohan like he had done up till that point.

User avatar
LightBing
I Live Here
Posts: 3848
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2013 7:47 am

Re: the Father-Son Kamehameha vs Super Perfect Cell

Post by LightBing » Mon Aug 20, 2018 8:55 am

All Goku did was push Gohan to free him from his mental chains. He was injured and feeling guilty about his father dying, he was already defeat.
Vegeta also contributed by providing an opening, which allowed Gohan to release all his power and have Cell unprepared to respond perfectly. Pun intended :)

I think Cell after coming back was still inferior to Gohan, the injury was necessary just so Gohan didn't own him right there. The beam struggle is there to provide tension, Gohan releasing all his power all at once - even injured - and with a little help from Vegeta is enough to defeat Cell.

User avatar
Super Saiyan Turlast x4
I Live Here
Posts: 3405
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2005 12:45 am
Location: Philadelphia
Contact:

Re: the Father-Son Kamehameha vs Super Perfect Cell

Post by Super Saiyan Turlast x4 » Mon Aug 20, 2018 8:58 am

I think the Daizenshuu is the only source that says Goku gave power to the KMHMH, though some could say the "power" was his motivation.
"First I whip it out! Then I thrust it! With great force! Every angle...! It penetrates! Until...! With great strength...! I... ram it in! In the end... We are all satisfied... And you are set free...!" ~Dante~

User avatar
Lionel
I Live Here
Posts: 2393
Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2015 2:54 am

Re: the Father-Son Kamehameha vs Super Perfect Cell

Post by Lionel » Mon Aug 20, 2018 9:58 am

Agree with the others. At the most, you could perhaps argue that Goku helped revitalise Gohan's spirit, resultantly enabling his yuki (courage) to return back to what it was prior to his arm being severely damaged. The symbolism behind Goku's likeness being implanted onto Gohan's as he's discharging the Kamehameha likely has to do with Gohan having taken the mantle of his father as hero and following in his footsteps. Looking back at that scene in retrospect, it's almost depressing how such a development was discarded later on because of Toriyama's self-conceived notions of Gohan not being adequate hero material (more like a product of the author not writing for it as effectively as he could have).

User avatar
Cetra
I Live Here
Posts: 3855
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2014 3:01 pm

Re: the Father-Son Kamehameha vs Super Perfect Cell

Post by Cetra » Mon Aug 20, 2018 10:03 am

dbgtFO wrote:Goku wasn't there at all. He was simply motivation. Goku being drawn there is just to visualize the concept for us, not to actually imply that Goku teleported there or was doing anything else than talking with Gohan like he had done up till that point.
I would not say "at all". He definitely was "with him". Being there with your heart is also some sort of being, even if you're not physically there. Like you said, he wanteed to motivate him, thus the whole telepathy.
"Citation needed."
"too lazy

feel free to take it with grain of salt or discredit me altogether, I'm not losing any sleep"

User avatar
RandomGuy96
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8862
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 3:57 pm
Location: San Diego, California, USA

Re: the Father-Son Kamehameha vs Super Perfect Cell

Post by RandomGuy96 » Mon Aug 20, 2018 12:29 pm

Gohan being injured need not have made him any weaker. He specifically said he was low on energy, not power.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

thesilentofficial
Newbie
Posts: 10
Joined: Sun Apr 29, 2018 9:12 pm

Re: the Father-Son Kamehameha vs Super Perfect Cell

Post by thesilentofficial » Mon Aug 20, 2018 7:06 pm

This makes sense, so we are all in agreement SP Cell wasn't stronger than SSJ2 Gohan even after being hit by the blast that disabled his arm?

Ssjcell
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 417
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2018 4:15 pm

Re: the Father-Son Kamehameha vs Super Perfect Cell

Post by Ssjcell » Mon Aug 20, 2018 7:15 pm

thesilentofficial wrote:This makes sense, so we are all in agreement SP Cell wasn't stronger than SSJ2 Gohan even after being hit by the blast that disabled his arm?
Yeah I mean he killed him so it makes sense...

thesilentofficial
Newbie
Posts: 10
Joined: Sun Apr 29, 2018 9:12 pm

Re: the Father-Son Kamehameha vs Super Perfect Cell

Post by thesilentofficial » Mon Aug 20, 2018 9:07 pm

Ssjcell wrote:
thesilentofficial wrote:This makes sense, so we are all in agreement SP Cell wasn't stronger than SSJ2 Gohan even after being hit by the blast that disabled his arm?
Yeah I mean he killed him so it makes sense...
That doesn't mean anything, It could've been the factors of the other Z-Fighters hitting Cell with attacks. If we eliminated the others from the equation would Gohan still have won the beam struggle?

Ssjcell
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 417
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2018 4:15 pm

Re: the Father-Son Kamehameha vs Super Perfect Cell

Post by Ssjcell » Mon Aug 20, 2018 10:28 pm

thesilentofficial wrote:
Ssjcell wrote:
thesilentofficial wrote:This makes sense, so we are all in agreement SP Cell wasn't stronger than SSJ2 Gohan even after being hit by the blast that disabled his arm?
Yeah I mean he killed him so it makes sense...
That doesn't mean anything, It could've been the factors of the other Z-Fighters hitting Cell with attacks. If we eliminated the others from the equation would Gohan still have won the beam struggle?
That's a good question , I would say that he could have cell just would have had to kill off one of the Z fighters

User avatar
sintzu
Banned
Posts: 13583
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 1:41 pm

Re: the Father-Son Kamehameha vs Super Perfect Cell

Post by sintzu » Tue Aug 21, 2018 5:04 am

Goku was there in spirit only so the power was all Gohan's. Vegeta did distract Cell for a split second which also contributed to his victory
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.

User avatar
Logania
Regular
Posts: 593
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2018 6:47 am

Re: the Father-Son Kamehameha vs Super Perfect Cell

Post by Logania » Wed Aug 22, 2018 7:33 pm

He was only there in spirit, to motivate Gohan to go all out to finish him off. That being said, I don't agree with people saying Cell was still inferior to Gohan even with the broken arm. I think they were roughly equal in strength.

The only reason Gohan managed to kill Cell at that moment was because Cell was hit by Vegeta and got distracted, not feeding any more energy into his attack. By the time he was focused back onto the struggle, it was too late and was being engulfed by Gohan's Kamehameha. If no one intervened and Gohan did the same amount of force, I strongly believe Cell could've matched it like he was doing the entire time, as he was in absolute control of the fight.
"I can't increase my ability through some kind of noisy transformation the way Frost and you Saiyans do. If I wanna become more lethal, I don't have the luxury of cutting corners, I just have to do it the old-fashioned way.

Combat is craft. What matters most is not raw power, but the skill by which you hone it."

User avatar
Kurakaio
Newbie
Posts: 37
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2018 12:11 am

Re: the Father-Son Kamehameha vs Super Perfect Cell

Post by Kurakaio » Fri Aug 24, 2018 4:23 pm

Logania wrote:He was only there in spirit, to motivate Gohan to go all out to finish him off. That being said, I don't agree with people saying Cell was still inferior to Gohan even with the broken arm. I think they were roughly equal in strength.

The only reason Gohan managed to kill Cell at that moment was because Cell was hit by Vegeta and got distracted, not feeding any more energy into his attack. By the time he was focused back onto the struggle, it was too late and was being engulfed by Gohan's Kamehameha. If no one intervened and Gohan did the same amount of force, I strongly believe Cell could've matched it like he was doing the entire time, as he was in absolute control of the fight.
^ THIS.

Even if Cell was only able to equal that of Gohans extra push against him, Gohan would have probably ran out of energy before Cell and lose anyway.

Similar thing happens in Broly Second coming, but that's a whole other discussion.

User avatar
Tectorman
Regular
Posts: 599
Joined: Thu Jun 19, 2014 8:19 pm

Re: the Father-Son Kamehameha vs Super Perfect Cell

Post by Tectorman » Sat Aug 25, 2018 2:10 am

My take is this:

Gohan squanders his chance to use his SSJ2 power to finish off Cell, and Goku has to save the Earth at the cost of his life. Gohan's confidence takes a hit and his power drops (since mental state is a factor in a person's ki).

Cell comes back, better than ever, making Goku's death pointless, and exacerbating the consequences of Gohan's mistake further. His confidence (and therefore power level) drops further. He powers up to SSJ2, but it's a SSJ2 weaker than what he first had because of the aforementioned loss of confidence. Super Perfect Cell is stronger than this SSJ2 Gohan, though not the initial, fully-confident SSJ2 Gohan.

Gohan takes a hit from Cell's blast against Vegeta, gets injured, and the combination of his loss of confidence and the injury puts him at 50% normal, which is what he tells Goku.

Goku reinspires him, and his confidence grows, so Gohan approaches his initial, fully-confident SSJ2 power level. However, even though his power level is now only minorly diminished compared to his initial full power due to the injury, the injury does also impact how long he can be at full power*.

*The reasoning behind that:[spoiler]Goku tells him he already has the power he needs. But after Vegeta distracts Cell, Goku tells Gohan to take advantage of the opening. If Gohan already has the power he needs, why does he need an opening?

Because the gap between Super Perfect Cell and injured-though-fully-confident SSJ2 Gohan is not so extensive that Cell is at Gohan's mercy. At any time, Gohan could have ramped up to full power and pushed against Cell's blast and Cell would have lost ground. But if, say, Gohan can only keep that push going for five seconds and Cell is close enough to Gohan's power that he can limit Gohan's push to only making Cell lose ground during those five seconds without getting overwhelmed, then five seconds later, Gohan's no longer at full power and Cell can easily regain the ground he lost and then overwhelm Gohan.

That's why Gohan needed an opening. He only had a limited window of opportunity to do a full-power push, and he needed Cell as disadvantaged regarding pushing back as possible.[/spoiler]

After Vegeta's distraction, Gohan ramps up to his current injured full power, more than Super Perfect Cell, though slightly less than his initial uninjured full power.
Twilight: My library?! My library!! Do you have any idea how many books I had in there?!
Lord Tirek: How many, little princess?
Twilight: Over NINE THOUSAND!!!

Post Reply