Is there a state of SSJ beyond the numbered forms?

[Desassina]

So, when Goku used his full power without getting bulky or straining himself, he went past the grades and Gohan unlocked Super Saiyan 2. Later, when he showcased the numbered forms to Beerus, only Super Saiyan God proved its worth and Super Saiyan got up there in terms of performance. Since Toriyama did not want the ascension of SSJ post-Battle of Gods, but Goku got to use SSJ2 and 3 anyway, would you believe his state to be another? This is what I'm proposing:

1. Super Saiyan can ascend through the Grades.
2. Its full power lets them use SSJ2 and 3.
3. At God's level SSJG and B arrive.

In essence, by the time DBS arrived, the power of hindsight allowed SSJ to be cast as a prototype for SSJB, and Goku Black was already transformed before Rosé, so could it have been a recaped state from the movie?

[sintzu]

Ssj1 and the grade forms : The form Goku used against Cell in the tournament was just the regular Ssj1 form so it had no extra power and the grade forms were still stronger. The reason Goku decided to use it was because its balance. If grade 2 being stronger was a 75 in power, 25 in speed and 25 in stamina then Ssj1 was a 50 in power, 50 in speed and 50 in stamina. Goku lost a big of power but he gained more stamina and speed.

Ssj1 and SsjG : Once Goku drops out of SsjG, his base AND Ssj forms managed to keep SsjG'd power for a limited time. The reason it was temporary is shown by Goku switching between his base, Ssj and SsjG forms, something he wouldn't have to do if he permanently kept the power in his base form. Vegeta also said the next time they need SsjG he'd be the one to get the ritual, something he wouldn't say if Goku didn't need to do it again or even if he kept the power.

SsjG and SsjB in regards to the other Ssj forms. We were told in RF that Blue was the Ssj version of SsjG and later in the TOP SsjB Evolution being the Grade 2 form of SsjB which makes me think that SsjG is nothing but a base, not an actual Ssj form. Black haired base form results in Yellow haired Ssj forms while Red haired base form (SsjG) results in Blue haired Ssj forms.

[Desassina]

That's good. I would like to read more opinions though. I can only target the bulk of information in one go before it gets nit picky.

[ankokudaishogun]

Grades and Numbers are just "tweaks" on the base SS transformation, with pros and cons.

[p-hyvo]

taking all in an account, ther is :

false ssj : easily considerable a x25, even if toei listed it at kaioken x100 in a cardgame

ssj : x50 stated in daizenshuu, x4 for logic sake in buu saga and x2 in gt

controlled ssj (broly's blue-purple haired form) : less than the base ssj, il could perfectly be a x40. this is the form in wich broly slaughtered a Galaxy in movie 8

ssj grade 2 : possibly is in the range of x55-x70, we never had an official mult for that form

ssj grade 3/ultra ssj/ssj 1.5 : is atated that adds an extra 10 times, so is x550-x700. in a lowball, going by its third name , it is considerable a x75, but in my opinion is incorrect

ssj grade 4 : stated to be a lot stronger than grade 3, could perfectly be x1'000 - x1'500 or even x2'000 from base form if highballed

ssj berserk/legendary ssj : going by z movies il could be at least a x120 of ssj /x6'000 base form considering that , in movie 10, base gohan = ssj bloly and ssl broly > ssj2 gohan. in a scale : gohan /ssj bloly = 1 , ssj2 gohan = 100 , ssjl broly = 120+. going with super instead, considering that fp kale is near to be twice as strong as caulifla (because ssj kale<= ssj2 caulifla),and i put suppressed blue Goku at x600 and fp berserk kale at x1'000 from base Goku, considering the gap between her and goku's base, i give to ssj berserker a x4'000 multiplier on top of base form (all considered, is even weaker that broly's ssjl lol, thought is the same form basically. but this is a strange form and strenght depends on the user, it could perfectly have different multipliers for each user)


ssj2 : stated to be x2 that of normal ssj, so, if we are counting cell saga it would me a x2'000-x4'000 without rageboosts , and in buu saga [with classic mults] a x100 of base form, even if i think that, for the kiri thing, in buu saga is better to use x4 for ssj [cause gohan + Goku + vegeta = gohan ssj2,and gohan is not to distant to vegeta in the babidy's ship arc], that making ssj2 a x8


ultra ssj2 : used in dbs from trunks and different from manga to anime, its multiplier goes with classic x50 as base reference for ssj and could be a x350-x500


ssj3 : stated to be a x4 of ssj2 , so in makes it a x400 with classic mults , a x32 in buu saga and a x8'000-16'000 taking in account ssj grade 4 if we really want to highball



ssj4 : considering some statements on baby vegeta's strenght, we no from dbgt perfect files that ssj4 is a x100 from ssj3, so it would be a x1'600 in gt [considering that, in gt, base ssj is only a x2]




ultra ssj4 : same boost of ultra ssj on top of ssj4, so it is a x16'000 in gt standards, or, for logic sake[considering the next form], we can add a x1,5 on top of ssj4 , making ussj4 a x2'400 in gt standards


ultra fullpower ssj4 : now the 10 times boost kiks in, making that form a x24'000 on top of base form, exactly pear with omega shenron's fullpower, that is x15 that one of a ssj4 [infact, he same tells us that his strenght after tranforming is 10, or maybe more times than before. you can just swap the boosts of this and the previous form, making ussj4 a x10 and ufpssj4 a x15 on top of base ssj4]



ssj god : multiplier never officially stated, but, considering in series statements from kibitoshin , we come to know that bog bills > omega shenron, so ritual god multiplier is in a range from quintillions to decillions, depending on how much you lowball or highball. then goku's base became stronger than the ritusl god, dropping the multiplier exponentially to a x1'000 [for me is the most fair guess]. manga wise, god is nerfed a lot and could perfectly be a x10'000


ssj blue : going for the anime is clearly a x50 on top of ssj god, so a x50'000, same for manga [the only difference is that it is x5 of god and not x50]



blue kaioken x10 /blue fullpower (both in manga and anime, Goku gained an extra 10 times on ssj blue, so it is a x500'000 fold multiplier)



blue kaioken x20 / blue fullpower pushed to the limits : that grants an extra x2 on top of kkx10 / blue fp, making it a x1'000'000 on top of base form



ultra istinct sign - 1 : (thought this is not a saiyan form , i like to consider it) it is x50 of ssj blue going by the anime, making it a x2'500'000


ultra istinc sign - 2 : it beated kefla ssj2 , that anime wise is stated to be on par with ultra istunct sign - 1, making the second level a x100 from ssj blue and x2 from the fist ultra istinct state, so it is a x5'000'000


ultra istinct sign - 3 : (adapting) stated by jiren to be exactly the strenght of level 2 going by goku's movements, so, even if the mult il the same the result is much stronger, considering that goku's base form grew in power. so, Always a x5'000'000



ultra istinc sign - 3 (adapted) : goku has shown signs of getting more used to the form against jiren, so i stack there another extra times 2, making it ax10'000'000 (interesting thing is that we know that goku, in this form, may have suprpassed beerus, so we can put the purple cat in a goku x9'500'000-10'500'000 range)


mastered ultra istinct - adapting : i stack an extra time x2 , so it becames a x400 of ssjb/ x20'000'000 base


mastered ultra istinct - adapted : i stack another x 1,25, making it a x500 ssb / x25'000'000 base. in his rage state, (after jiren tried to kill everyone), goku gets an extra x2 of rageboost, bringing it to a ssb x1'000 / x50'000'000 base

[p-hyvo]

lol just realized that my answer is a bit offtopic, but it is still interesting i think

[Grand Marshal 1]

taking all in an account, ther is :

false ssj : easily considerable a x25, even if toei listed it at kaioken x100 in a cardgame

ssj : x50 stated in daizenshuu, x4 for logic sake in buu saga and x2 in gt

controlled ssj (broly's blue-purple haired form) : less than the base ssj, il could perfectly be a x40. this is the form in wich broly slaughtered a Galaxy in movie 8

ssj grade 2 : possibly is in the range of x55-x70, we never had an official mult for that form

ssj grade 3/ultra ssj/ssj 1.5 : is atated that adds an extra 10 times, so is x550-x700. in a lowball, going by its third name , it is considerable a x75, but in my opinion is incorrect

ssj grade 4 : stated to be a lot stronger than grade 3, could perfectly be x1'000 - x1'500 or even x2'000 from base form if highballed

ssj berserk/legendary ssj : going by z movies il could be at least a x120 of ssj /x6'000 base form considering that , in movie 10, base gohan = ssj bloly and ssl broly > ssj2 gohan. in a scale : gohan /ssj bloly = 1 , ssj2 gohan = 100 , ssjl broly = 120+. going with super instead, considering that fp kale is near to be twice as strong as caulifla (because ssj kale<= ssj2 caulifla),and i put suppressed blue Goku at x600 and fp berserk kale at x1'000 from base Goku, considering the gap between her and goku's base, i give to ssj berserker a x4'000 multiplier on top of base form (all considered, is even weaker that broly's ssjl lol, thought is the same form basically. but this is a strange form and strenght depends on the user, it could perfectly have different multipliers for each user)


ssj2 : stated to be x2 that of normal ssj, so, if we are counting cell saga it would me a x2'000-x4'000 without rageboosts , and in buu saga [with classic mults] a x100 of base form, even if i think that, for the kiri thing, in buu saga is better to use x4 for ssj [cause gohan + Goku + vegeta = gohan ssj2,and gohan is not to distant to vegeta in the babidy's ship arc], that making ssj2 a x8


ultra ssj2 : used in dbs from trunks and different from manga to anime, its multiplier goes with classic x50 as base reference for ssj and could be a x350-x500


ssj3 : stated to be a x4 of ssj2 , so in makes it a x400 with classic mults , a x32 in buu saga and a x8'000-16'000 taking in account ssj grade 4 if we really want to highball



ssj4 : considering some statements on baby vegeta's strenght, we no from dbgt perfect files that ssj4 is a x100 from ssj3, so it would be a x1'600 in gt [considering that, in gt, base ssj is only a x2]




ultra ssj4 : same boost of ultra ssj on top of ssj4, so it is a x16'000 in gt standards, or, for logic sake[considering the next form], we can add a x1,5 on top of ssj4 , making ussj4 a x2'400 in gt standards


ultra fullpower ssj4 : now the 10 times boost kiks in, making that form a x24'000 on top of base form, exactly pear with omega shenron's fullpower, that is x15 that one of a ssj4 [infact, he same tells us that his strenght after tranforming is 10, or maybe more times than before. you can just swap the boosts of this and the previous form, making ussj4 a x10 and ufpssj4 a x15 on top of base ssj4]



ssj god : multiplier never officially stated, but, considering in series statements from kibitoshin , we come to know that bog bills > omega shenron, so ritual god multiplier is in a range from quintillions to decillions, depending on how much you lowball or highball. then goku's base became stronger than the ritusl god, dropping the multiplier exponentially to a x1'000 [for me is the most fair guess]. manga wise, god is nerfed a lot and could perfectly be a x10'000


ssj blue : going for the anime is clearly a x50 on top of ssj god, so a x50'000, same for manga [the only difference is that it is x5 of god and not x50]



blue kaioken x10 /blue fullpower (both in manga and anime, Goku gained an extra 10 times on ssj blue, so it is a x500'000 fold multiplier)



blue kaioken x20 / blue fullpower pushed to the limits : that grants an extra x2 on top of kkx10 / blue fp, making it a x1'000'000 on top of base form



ultra istinct sign - 1 : (thought this is not a saiyan form , i like to consider it) it is x50 of ssj blue going by the anime, making it a x2'500'000


ultra istinc sign - 2 : it beated kefla ssj2 , that anime wise is stated to be on par with ultra istunct sign - 1, making the second level a x100 from ssj blue and x2 from the fist ultra istinct state, so it is a x5'000'000


ultra istinct sign - 3 : (adapting) stated by jiren to be exactly the strenght of level 2 going by goku's movements, so, even if the mult il the same the result is much stronger, considering that goku's base form grew in power. so, Always a x5'000'000



ultra istinc sign - 3 (adapted) : goku has shown signs of getting more used to the form against jiren, so i stack there another extra times 2, making it ax10'000'000 (interesting thing is that we know that goku, in this form, may have suprpassed beerus, so we can put the purple cat in a goku x9'500'000-10'500'000 range)


mastered ultra istinct - adapting : i stack an extra time x2 , so it becames a x400 of ssjb/ x20'000'000 base


mastered ultra istinct - adapted : i stack another x 1,25, making it a x500 ssb / x25'000'000 base. in his rage state, (after jiren tried to kill everyone), goku gets an extra x2 of rageboost, bringing it to a ssb x1'000 / x50'000'000 base

I never understood why everyone kept on using those ridiculous numbers. Please don't get me wrong, but "decillions" is a massive number. You can't really jump that far with forms which only have several hundreds of times as a multiplier. Your initial numbers were probably some of the best I have ever heard of though.

[PFM18]

ssj god : multiplier never officially stated, but, considering in series statements from kibitoshin , we come to know that bog bills > omega shenron, so ritual god multiplier is in a range from quintillions to decillions, depending on how much you lowball or highball. then goku's base became stronger than the ritusl god, dropping the multiplier exponentially to a x1'000 [for me is the most fair guess]. manga wise, god is nerfed a lot and could perfectly be a x10'000

I'm sorry but almost everything about this is simply irrational. Decillions of times? Are you aware of how inconceivably massive that is? There's no reason to believe that such a multiplier exists. I've never seen anything more than the tens of millions for that multiplier and this is unfathomably larger than that. We should not use this to scale Omega and Beerus because they are completely and totally irrelevant to each other. Omega has no bearing on the scaling in DBS at all whatsoever and this is apparently the only evidence you use to make this deduction

The only evidence we have of Goku beocming stronger than SSG in his base is literally one punch. Then the verbatim "limit breaking" used implies a temporary boost. We see this confirmed when nothing is said during BoG about Goku surpassing himself when he fought Beerus(had he done it there obviously would have been a statement about it.) And it is only stated that he surpassed SSG upon going SSB, implying at no point prior did he surpass SSG during his fight. Episodes 13 and 14 established SSJ~SSG and we don't have enough evidence to think otherwise.

I never understood why everyone kept on using those ridiculous numbers. Please don't get me wrong, but "decillions" is a massive number. You can't really jump that far with forms which only have several hundreds of times as a multiplier. Your initial numbers were probably some of the best I have ever heard of though.

Solid first post. Welcome to the forum!

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Technically speaking, SSB could be considered this state of SS beyond the numbered forms.

In essence, it's still the same as the regular Super Saiyan form, but it uses the power of Super Saiyan God. And now that we know about the story of Yamoshi and how this fallen Super Saiyan is integral to the power of SSG, I personally believe this lends even further credence to SSB being SS's "true power".

In essence, SSB is using the SS form to harness the power brought about by a fallen Super Saiyan.

[SSJgogeto]

Well, there's a theoretical transformation called Chou Super Saiyan, the name was mentioned in one of the previews.

[Grand Marshal 1]

ssj god : multiplier never officially stated, but, considering in series statements from kibitoshin , we come to know that bog bills > omega shenron, so ritual god multiplier is in a range from quintillions to decillions, depending on how much you lowball or highball. then goku's base became stronger than the ritusl god, dropping the multiplier exponentially to a x1'000 [for me is the most fair guess]. manga wise, god is nerfed a lot and could perfectly be a x10'000

I'm sorry but almost everything about this is simply irrational. Decillions of times? Are you aware of how inconceivably massive that is? There's no reason to believe that such a multiplier exists. I've never seen anything more than the tens of millions for that multiplier and this is unfathomably larger than that. We should not use this to scale Omega and Beerus because they are completely and totally irrelevant to each other. Omega has no bearing on the scaling in DBS at all whatsoever and this is apparently the only evidence you use to make this deduction

The only evidence we have of Goku beocming stronger than SSG in his base is literally one punch. Then the verbatim "limit breaking" used implies a temporary boost. We see this confirmed when nothing is said during BoG about Goku surpassing himself when he fought Beerus(had he done it there obviously would have been a statement about it.) And it is only stated that he surpassed SSG upon going SSB, implying at no point prior did he surpass SSG during his fight. Episodes 13 and 14 established SSJ~SSG and we don't have enough evidence to think otherwise.

I never understood why everyone kept on using those ridiculous numbers. Please don't get me wrong, but "decillions" is a massive number. You can't really jump that far with forms which only have several hundreds of times as a multiplier. Your initial numbers were probably some of the best I have ever heard of though.

Solid first post. Welcome to the forum!

Thank you very much!

[Desassina]

Technically speaking, SSB could be considered this state of SS beyond the numbered forms.
In essence, it's still the same as the regular Super Saiyan form, but it uses the power of Super Saiyan God.

If Super Saiyan Blue can be obtained without the signature of a God, then it is the level of Super Saiyan that goes beyond the numbers, but I meant that in a way that precedes the God forms and considers their realm at the same time.

Well, there's a theoretical transformation called Chou Super Saiyan, the name was mentioned in one of the previews.

That's interesting. Which chapter or episode did it preview?

[SSJgogeto]

The name is mentioned in the summary of the episode 36. Herms translated it.

Personally I think it would explain a lot of things, but like I said before it's only theoretical.

[Desassina]

Ok. Thanks for the heads up. I will continue to respond to other posts.

Ssj1 and the grade forms : The form Goku used against Cell in the tournament was just the regular Ssj1 form so it had no extra power and the grade forms were still stronger. The reason Goku decided to use it was because its balance. If grade 2 being stronger was a 75 in power, 25 in speed and 25 in stamina then Ssj1 was a 50 in power, 50 in speed and 50 in stamina. Goku lost a big of power but he gained more stamina and speed.

Goku neither strengthened himself nor increased his speed past the SSJ form. He saved his energy so that he could power up to its fullest, and because the others were always capped by something, either strength and speed or the former increased. That is the only way that I can think of power going up without affecting the other stats like the ascended forms. In essence, Goku's 100% power would be given by a 10% boost in strength and speed multiplied by each other and divided by 1% of energy consumption. Grade II SSJ could be 64% power from a 16% boost in strength and speed, but with 4% of energy consumption while vanilla SSJ would be 50%, because strength and speed remained 10% with the energy loss of 2%. Goku has simply shaved those two percent and became more powerful. Whether Goku's multiplier was higher or not, he's certainly on a different amount that is many times higher, hence why the increase through multiplication when I don't like multipliers.

Grades and Numbers are just "tweaks" on the base SS transformation, with pros and cons.

Ok, but at one point or another, grades were the next big thing and then quickly outdated, so I'm asking whether or not the numbered forms are the same, with regards to a level of SSJ that SSJG helped achieve.

[ankokudaishogun]

Ok, but at one point or another, grades were the next big thing and then quickly outdated, so I'm asking whether or not the numbered forms are the same, with regards to a level of SSJ that SSJG helped achieve.

No, Numbered Forms are EXACTLY the same thing as Grades.
Hell, wan't SS2 originally Grade-5 before Goku revealed the Numbering against Majin Buu?


There is nothing whatsoever in canon and extended explanations that suggests that SS2 and 3 are anything different than further Grades.
Stability, maybe, but SS3 doesn't has that either so...

[theherodjl]

I really like the concept that Future Trunks initially thought FPSSJ was, in that it was normalizing the ordinary SSJ form to transform a second time that is proportionate to the initial power-up from base to SSJ or a x50 increase from SSJ. It would add up to a 2,500x multiplier which certainly is deserving of being associated with the legends of SSJ being an unbeatable warrior, and it would've made even BoZ Goku stronger than Freeza's 1st form. If something like that does exist then it should be called SSJ Max Power or the SSJ of SSJs.