Old Broly vs Super Vegetto

Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.

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Sora Saiyan
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Re: Old Broly vs Super Vegetto

Post by Sora Saiyan » Mon Sep 03, 2018 2:29 pm

Rakurai wrote: Does making cameos necessarily mean that it must've happened? I don't believe it. Cooler was shown being released from Hell in GT, so do we say that M5-6 must have occurred (I also take something else I said back; M5-6 were back-to-back in terms of continuity like M8, 10, & 11)? M6 cannot fit anywhere in the DBZ anime's continuity, of which GT is a sequel to. So M5 might've occurred but not M6, however M6 itself is a sequel to M5 and these timelines must be connected. This is what I mean by the film timelines being muddled and ambiguous in general.

Koyama's perception of Broly may have been shaped by modern depiction of Broly today. Marketing and all that. We can either take to the films, which we can scale Janemba > Broly, or we can take to Koyama, in which case Broly > Janemba according to his thoughts most likely. I expect most fans to follow the former.

Agree to disagree. There's really no right or wrong in this case, but I myself choose to side with the content creator's words more than anything else unless he/she contradict that statement in a later work (as much as I hate Toriyama doing it).
I would include movie 8 solely for the fact that Paragus had his movie 8 appearance, and he didn’t have that appearance until after he put the mind control device on Broly. That’s the only thing we can conclude. It’s impossible to know about movie 10, so I guess the argument could be made that Janenba is stronger than M8 Broly, but M10 Zenkai Broly is more powerful than Janenba and Hatchiyack.
As you’ve probably gathered I don’t follow that, as it doesn’t make sense for me, but if somebody wants to link everything posed with Koyamas current statements this could work.

Also movie 5 fitting in Z would mean that for some reason Goku forgot how to turn SSJ, even though we know he mastered it when he returns to earth, also Gohan has that bowl cut. I feel that last point totally drives it home. :lol:
Most of the movies have some issues when trying to make them fit into the anime timeline. GT just uses whatever it wants to, I guess. Maybe in GT it’s a Cooler that actually fits in the anime timeline, and Goku wipes him out super easily as he’s mastered how to transform.

I totally see the point you’re making though, but i’ll just stick to the movies.

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Re: Old Broly vs Super Vegetto

Post by Hugo Boss » Mon Sep 03, 2018 4:18 pm

sintzu wrote: The issue isn't us disregarding the writer's word but rather the writer disregarding his own work and saying things that completely go against it.
But he is not disregarding his work, he is explaining how it was in his blog post (there was a constant challenge to create opponents stronger than the previous one, but he failed in creating someone stronger than Broly).
RandomGuy96 wrote: He doesn't have the right to "provide information." What he says in interviews is no more worthy of consideration than what I say. Because it's not in the movie. Koyama has even less of a right to do this than, say, Toriyama, because unlike Toriyama's more or less one-man show, the Broly movies involved dozens if not hundreds of people working on them (including directors) and adding their own bits.
I agree “Broly is the strongest” information is not included in the movie’s content, but it isn’t a continuity error either. Even if you take solely the original work, you can’t answer the “which is the strongest old DBZ movie villain” question, because you won’t find the answer in its content nor it is implied.

In another hand, questioning Koyama’s knowledge about DBZ movies is like questioning Aya Matsui’s about DBGT or even Toriyama’s about the original manga. In the 2006 interview, Koyama also explained in shorts the tipical process of creating those stories and the people involved. He also mentioned ideas, like Kuririn dressed as Piccolo, that were his and were included, suggesting that he is aware of what was cut and whatnot.

Since you spoke about rights, I would like to know if some of these people or even Tōei or Shueisha manifested contrary to Koyama’s answers, because, here in Kanzenshuu, I never saw anything. As in my country, there should be a local law and/or the company internal regiment that regulates how much the writer can reveal before and after the work is finished, the restrictions to interventions of directors/producers etc. None of these legal details were brought up yet.

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Re: Old Broly vs Super Vegetto

Post by RandomGuy96 » Mon Sep 03, 2018 5:38 pm

Hugo Boss wrote: I agree “Broly is the strongest” information is not included in the movie’s content, but it isn’t a continuity error either. Even if you take solely the original work, you can’t answer the “which is the strongest old DBZ movie villain” question, because you won’t find the answer in its content nor it is implied.
Goku outright says that Hatchiyak and Fat Janemba are stronger than Broly. Broly was also overpowered and killed by Gohan and Goten, and Goku said he could handle Broly in Hell.
In another hand, questioning Koyama’s knowledge about DBZ movies is like questioning Aya Matsui’s about DBGT or even Toriyama’s about the original manga.
Which you can totally do.
Since you spoke about rights, I would like to know if some of these people or even Tōei or Shueisha manifested contrary to Koyama’s answers, because, here in Kanzenshuu, I never saw anything. As in my country, there should be a local law and/or the company internal regiment that regulates how much the writer can reveal before and after the work is finished, the restrictions to interventions of directors/producers etc. None of these legal details were brought up yet.
By "rights", I don't mean who legally owns it (which is obviously not Koyama), but whether out of universe commentary "counts" in-universe. Which it doesn't. It's just something fans have taken to be true for the sake of discussion, but there's no actual 'rule' saying that I must let comments by the author override, or even have any impact on, the work itself. The author and his work are separate, particularly in works where there's not one singular creator.
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dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
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Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: Old Broly vs Super Vegetto

Post by Ssjcell » Mon Sep 03, 2018 6:52 pm

This isn't a serious conversation right I mean broly can't be stronger that super vegetto right? It's impossible his body would have blown up before he reached that level unless he started out stronger that majin Buu(fat) then I might be able to see that ...

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Re: Old Broly vs Super Vegetto

Post by Rakurai » Mon Sep 03, 2018 9:55 pm

Sora Saiyan wrote: I would include movie 8 solely for the fact that Paragus had his movie 8 appearance, and he didn’t have that appearance until after he put the mind control device on Broly. That’s the only thing we can conclude. It’s impossible to know about movie 10, so I guess the argument could be made that Janenba is stronger than M8 Broly, but M10 Zenkai Broly is more powerful than Janenba and Hatchiyack.
As you’ve probably gathered I don’t follow that, as it doesn’t make sense for me, but if somebody wants to link everything posed with Koyamas current statements this could work.

Also movie 5 fitting in Z would mean that for some reason Goku forgot how to turn SSJ, even though we know he mastered it when he returns to earth, also Gohan has that bowl cut. I feel that last point totally drives it home. :lol:
Most of the movies have some issues when trying to make them fit into the anime timeline. GT just uses whatever it wants to, I guess. Maybe in GT it’s a Cooler that actually fits in the anime timeline, and Goku wipes him out super easily as he’s mastered how to transform.

I totally see the point you’re making though, but i’ll just stick to the movies.
I have nothing against using powerscaling and statements to compare characters within the same continuity, or similar continuities. But like I said, I go by the scenario where if I were to ask the ultimate authority about something related to his own works, which would be Koyama. Most of the time this logic leads to no definitive conclusion since they tell their story through the consumed media, but since Koyama's already given us his view on it, that's what I go by above fan theories and wonky powerscaling.
RandomGuy96 wrote: By "rights", I don't mean who legally owns it (which is obviously not Koyama), but whether out of universe commentary "counts" in-universe. Which it doesn't. It's just something fans have taken to be true for the sake of discussion, but there's no actual 'rule' saying that I must let comments by the author override, or even have any impact on, the work itself. The author and his work are separate, particularly in works where there's not one singular creator.
Well, Broly's modern incarnation has already been portrayed as stronger than a GoD. Koyama's statements of old Broly and his standing amongst other old Z villains don't seem so fishy after that.
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Re: Old Broly vs Super Vegetto

Post by Pantalones » Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:34 pm

In another hand, questioning Koyama’s knowledge about DBZ movies is like questioning Aya Matsui’s about DBGT or even Toriyama’s about the original manga.
You realize you're talking about Akira "so who's Tao Pai Pai again? didn't #18 have purple hair?" Toriyama, right...?

So... yeah, you totally can question the author's knowledge about a work, especially if it's been years and years since they wrote it and they might have forgetten things about the movie/show/manga, and especially if what they say currently doesn't fit with what's actually in the movie/show/manga.

Claiming that Broly was the strongest being in the Dragonball universe before Super isn't a bit of trivia that adds to the background information or clarifies something; it's not like the Androids' original names, or the tree where Kaioshins come from, or Buu's ancient origins before Bibidi ever summoned him, or... well, pretty much any of the other new bits of information we've gotten over the years. It contradicts what's actually said and shown in the movies themselves. Broly's the strongest!... except Hatchiyack was outright stated to be possibly stronger than movie 8 Broly. And Goku's confident in taking him on alone in the Buu Saga time period, while he needs to fuse with Vegeta to handle Janemba and pull a new super-technique out of his ass to finish off Hirudegarn. And a rusty SSj2 Gohan manages to break his hold while a far, faaaaar stronger Ultimate Gohan gets beaten by Hirudegarn.

But anyway, I suspect he was just talking about how Broly seemed scarier or more threatening than other movie villains, not which one of them would be most likely to blow up a scouter if they powered up to maximum strength. It's not a "Broly was stronger than these guys" thing so much as a "these guys might be stronger, yeah, but Broly seemed more impressive in his movies." I mean, the quote related to Battle of Gods basically comes out and says just that -- Beerus is an enemy so strong that somebody like Broly would have no hope against him, but Broly still seemed scarier.

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Re: Old Broly vs Super Vegetto

Post by p-hyvo » Tue Sep 11, 2018 5:30 am

going by logic, anyone above ssj2 gohan level in buu saga should be able to beat broly, but the interview you referred to does make thing harder to judge. thats true, movies does have a scaling totally different and not related to the main continuity, like dbs manga and dbs anime (infact, they are both a lot different each other in their respective cases), so, z broly >> zverse is totally plausible and possible imo. only thing is that maybe is bad to hear that m8 Goku >> m12 gogeta, but going by that logic it is like this lol

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Re: Old Broly vs Super Vegetto

Post by Doctor. » Tue Sep 11, 2018 9:34 am

While I think death of the author is often misunderstood and applied wrongly to ignore any supplementary material someone may dislike, it really does apply here.

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Re: Old Broly vs Super Vegetto

Post by Hulk10 » Wed Sep 12, 2018 10:53 pm

Broly is a Saiyan prodigy, plain and simple. So is Frieza and Frieza is the strongest known member of his race. So Broly is the strongest Saiyan. Also the creators have said that Broly is the most powerful Saiyan.
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Re: Old Broly vs Super Vegetto

Post by sintzu » Thu Sep 13, 2018 12:33 am

Hulk10 wrote:The creators have said that Broly is the most powerful Saiyan.
It doesn't matter what they've said when we've been shown differently.
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Re: Old Broly vs Super Vegetto

Post by Hulk10 » Thu Sep 13, 2018 10:53 am

sintzu wrote:
Hulk10 wrote:The creators have said that Broly is the most powerful Saiyan.
It doesn't matter what they've said when we've been shown differently.
Actually it does matter, since the creators are the ones that control the series. But I see no point in debating a point we won't agree on.
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Re: Old Broly vs Super Vegetto

Post by Koitsukai » Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:05 pm

So, if I come up with a male character that sleeps with men, loves men and marries a man, but 10 years later in a interview I say that said character is actually heterosexual based on nothing from the show but something I thought up at the moment... he becomes straight even though I wrote him, portrayed him and sold him as gay??? just because I said so? then the character is never finished and is not to be taken serious at all. Who knows? maybe next year I'll say he was actually a dog, and my interviews will be more important and canon than the product.

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Re: Old Broly vs Super Vegetto

Post by Hulk10 » Sat Sep 15, 2018 6:28 pm

The inconsistencies just mean Toriyama is forgetful. And you can always retcon things. You see it often enough in comics. But neither of us is going to change the other's mind so there is no future in continuing.

And while I'm here shouldn't this be in the traditional vs thread?
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Re: Old Broly vs Super Vegetto

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Sep 20, 2018 9:18 am

Pantalones wrote:You realize you're talking about Akira "so who's Tao Pai Pai again? didn't #18 have purple hair?" Toriyama, right...?
Him. I can see we can question these minor details, but I wouldn’t expect he remembers everything about his story, specially characters of low importance. In another hand, the person in question not only wrote those movies but also organized them. He is talking about an important character (at least by his standards) and comparing him to other characters he either created or worked with. I would say it’s very difficult he is wrong here, considering we don’t know where those “vehement opinions” against Broly being the strongest comes from, if not by the fandom itself.

And again the movies alone didn’t settle this. We never got to see what Broly could do if he fought at full capacity all the time. What the characters implied in the work could totally be based on what they “felt” from him while he was alive, not what he potentially could do, which again never was touched until those interviews. If they managed something, even the author himself admitted it was not as simple as a normal match.

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Re: Old Broly vs Super Vegetto

Post by Hulk10 » Fri Sep 21, 2018 5:00 pm

I'm willing to concede that Super Vegito is the strongest fused Saiyan.
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Re: Old Broly vs Super Vegetto

Post by BrolyLSSJ » Mon Oct 01, 2018 6:51 pm

I'll say Broly due to his powerset and his mostly destructive capabilities.
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Re: Old Broly vs Super Vegetto

Post by Cursed Lemon » Tue Oct 02, 2018 8:34 pm

Broly lives and triumphs through the infinite, eternal, and unconquerable power of capitalism.

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Concerning DBZ in isolation, I'm not sure that we can claim that movie power scaling differs from the main canon. The movie heroes are constantly fed villains who are of the same tier as whatever bad guy is chronologically current to whichever episodes are airing at the time (and you can argue things like Bojack vs. Cell until you're Super Saiyan Blue in the face). Broly is an arc late, a wealth of training behind, a cheap powerup down, and a couple new techniques short. So, I'm gonna go ahead and posit that claiming Broly over Super Vegetto is one of the more, um...brave propositions I've heard, considering it wouldn't be out of this world to assert that Cell-era base Gogeta might give him trouble.
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Re: Old Broly vs Super Vegetto

Post by Ssjcell » Wed Oct 03, 2018 4:55 pm

Cursed Lemon wrote:Broly lives and triumphs through the infinite, eternal, and unconquerable power of capitalism.

X-Files theme plays

Concerning DBZ in isolation, I'm not sure that we can claim that movie power scaling differs from the main canon. The movie heroes are constantly fed villains who are of the same tier as whatever bad guy is chronologically current to whichever episodes are airing at the time (and you can argue things like Bojack vs. Cell until you're Super Saiyan Blue in the face). Broly is an arc late, a wealth of training behind, a cheap powerup down, and a couple new techniques short. So, I'm gonna go ahead and posit that claiming Broly over Super Vegetto is one of the more, um...brave propositions I've heard, considering it wouldn't be out of this world to assert that Cell-era base Gogeta might give him trouble.
Broly would get destroyed by base gogeta from cell games

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Re: Old Broly vs Super Vegetto

Post by CTAkuma » Wed Oct 03, 2018 5:54 pm

Ssjcell wrote:
Cursed Lemon wrote:Broly lives and triumphs through the infinite, eternal, and unconquerable power of capitalism.

X-Files theme plays

Concerning DBZ in isolation, I'm not sure that we can claim that movie power scaling differs from the main canon. The movie heroes are constantly fed villains who are of the same tier as whatever bad guy is chronologically current to whichever episodes are airing at the time (and you can argue things like Bojack vs. Cell until you're Super Saiyan Blue in the face). Broly is an arc late, a wealth of training behind, a cheap powerup down, and a couple new techniques short. So, I'm gonna go ahead and posit that claiming Broly over Super Vegetto is one of the more, um...brave propositions I've heard, considering it wouldn't be out of this world to assert that Cell-era base Gogeta might give him trouble.
Broly would get destroyed by base gogeta from cell games
You do know Broly is atleast capable of destroying multiple solar systems at the same time in his restricted form alone right? Super Perfect Cell's full power could only destroy one

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Re: Old Broly vs Super Vegetto

Post by Champa The Destroyer » Wed Oct 03, 2018 6:39 pm

Is this really a debate? Considering SS2 Gohan (rusty) wasn't finger flicked by Broly shows that he's weaker than Super Vegito.


Plus, take this with a grain of salt, but if we (like some people I've seen) say that filler can be used when debating movie characters, then Broly destroying "South Galaxy" or "multiple solar systems" doesn't matter, because Buuhan was like tearing the universe apart, and Vegito stopped him.

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