Old Broly vs Super Vegetto

[OWmyDragonBallz]

But Toriyama did says Frieza was the strongest in the universe and he brought him back 3 different times it’s really no different. Both long overstayed their welcome.

Him saying Freeza having lots of potential which he only realized later on does not make Freeza from the Namek arc the strongest in the original run itself when he's clearly overshadowed by lots, and lots of people afterward. Toriyama expecting you to believe Freeza who couldn't beat initial SS Goku being the strongest of the original run is essentially what Kageyama is doing here with Broly: non-sense.

I don’t think that’s what’s happening. Broly keeps coming back because I’m whatever form or level or tier he’s in, he’s the strongest on that tier. Always for whatever reason.

In non-canon works when Broly goes SSJ4 he’s the strongest in that form. He’s about to be “canonized” and from all appearances is stronger than even SSB Goku/Vegeta.

Every time Broly appears he’s literally written as the strongest character in terms of power for those in his power sphere. That’s his narrative function, he has literally never been definitively overpowered by a single character the way Vegeta or Frieza or Cell or Buu were.

From a literary device perspective no single character is stronger than Broly within his same tiers. The exceptions being the GoD thus far.

SSJG Goku when he fought Beerus > Old Broly.

[ekrolo2]

But Toriyama did says Frieza was the strongest in the universe and he brought him back 3 different times it’s really no different. Both long overstayed their welcome.

Him saying Freeza having lots of potential which he only realized later on does not make Freeza from the Namek arc the strongest in the original run itself when he's clearly overshadowed by lots, and lots of people afterward. Toriyama expecting you to believe Freeza who couldn't beat initial SS Goku being the strongest of the original run is essentially what Kageyama is doing here with Broly: non-sense.

I don’t think that’s what’s happening. Broly keeps coming back because I’m whatever form or level or tier he’s in, he’s the strongest on that tier. Always for whatever reason.

In non-canon works when Broly goes SSJ4 he’s the strongest in that form. He’s about to be “canonized” and from all appearances is stronger than even SSB Goku/Vegeta.

Every time Broly appears he’s literally written as the strongest character in terms of power for those in his power sphere. That’s his narrative function, he has literally never been definitively overpowered by a single character the way Vegeta or Frieza or Cell or Buu were.

From a literary device perspective no single character is stronger than Broly within his same tiers. The exceptions being the GoD thus far.

Which is still missing my point: Kageyama says that the old Broly is the strongest of the Z movie villains and that is flat out wrong based on a whole myriad of ways thanks to various power ups, fusions and transformations and how the other bad guys stack up against them.

It's the equivalent of saying Freeza with a power level of a 120 million is the strongest bad guy of the original run even though there's no way it can possibly be true.

[RandomGuy96]

Broly was killed by a rusty Gohan, his seven year old brother, and a half-dead base Trunks. No hax necessary either, they just shot a big blast through his chest.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Given Takao Koyama's own words in the interview, Broli ought to stomp.

[TheMikado]

Him saying Freeza having lots of potential which he only realized later on does not make Freeza from the Namek arc the strongest in the original run itself when he's clearly overshadowed by lots, and lots of people afterward. Toriyama expecting you to believe Freeza who couldn't beat initial SS Goku being the strongest of the original run is essentially what Kageyama is doing here with Broly: non-sense.

I don’t think that’s what’s happening. Broly keeps coming back because I’m whatever form or level or tier he’s in, he’s the strongest on that tier. Always for whatever reason.

In non-canon works when Broly goes SSJ4 he’s the strongest in that form. He’s about to be “canonized” and from all appearances is stronger than even SSB Goku/Vegeta.

Every time Broly appears he’s literally written as the strongest character in terms of power for those in his power sphere. That’s his narrative function, he has literally never been definitively overpowered by a single character the way Vegeta or Frieza or Cell or Buu were.

From a literary device perspective no single character is stronger than Broly within his same tiers. The exceptions being the GoD thus far.

Which is still missing my point: Kageyama says that the old Broly is the strongest of the Z movie villains and that is flat out wrong based on a whole myriad of ways thanks to various power ups, fusions and transformations and how the other bad guys stack up against them.

It's the equivalent of saying Freeza with a power level of a 120 million is the strongest bad guy of the original run even though there's no way it can possibly be true.

No that’s like saying Frieza is the weakest enemy and has no business being around now because he was surpassed in the Android arc.

The interview is specifically taking about Broly as a character. Not his power level at the time of introduction which are two seperate things.

Broly’s role every single time he is introduced is to the be the single strongest fighter. It’s literally the role he plays.

At no point in any of his fights was Broly surpasssed by the raw strength of a fighter. None of them. That’s simply his role. That’s the point in terms of story.

Frieza is surpassed in power by SSJ Goku
Cell is surpassed in power by SSJ Gohan.
Buu got surpassed multiple times by various fighters.

It’s simply Broly was defeated without actually being surpassed or every really beaten up.

[RecolorSaiyan]

Vegetto would punt Old Broly into the sky. Koyoma's love affair for Broly doesn't mean he was the strongest movie villain back during the Z movies. He was fodder to Janemba and Hirudegarn and would get utterly wrecked by Vegetto

[Hulk10]

He is the most powerful Saiyan of all. It would be an interesting fight.

[Hugo Boss]

Just want to say what Koyama-san says about his movies is his decision. He made them. He can decide who is the strongest in those movies. Just because Janemba and Hirudegarn are "late Z enemies" he still has the write to decide that out of those characters he made - and he made all of them - Broly is the strongest. And considering Broly always was pretty much invincible in his own movies only to be beaten by a punch that has no imaginable function or burned to death by the sun's surface I always could imagine Broly to be the real deal. The Legend.

That’s right. He is the one that wrote all the first 13 DBZ movies and was involved in DBZ tv series’ organization, so I don’t understand who claims he doesn’t know what he is talking about. Who could have more authority on the matter? If he says there is no single person, besides god level people, that is stronger than Broly, including the DBZ anime, then it can’t be helped. He made up his mind. I guess this is pretty much the same treatment handed over to Kale in Dragon Ball Super. Though, I don’t think fusion counts as an “orthodox” way to challenge them, so it’s up for debate.

[Meshack]

It's unclear since they never really beat Broly. The first movie, Gokou just punched him in the gut and the meteor just kill him and the second movie, without Trunks's help they would have died. I would woot for Super Vegetto because Potara fusion multiplies the power tens of times plus a fifty times multiplier with Super Saiyan. It'd be a close fight but I say Vegetto would rise on top.

[sintzu]

Just want to say what Koyama-san says about his movies is his decision. He made them. He can decide who is the strongest in those movies.

I heard that TOEI had an original interview saying Janemba was the strongest movie villain until this interview came out and then they retracted it???

Toei and Koyama can say whatever they want but that won't change the facts presented to us in the movies and Z which clearly show Broly is far from being the strongest character. I think he barely makes it into the top 20.

The second movie without Trunks's help they would have died. It'd be a close fight but I say Vegetto would rise on top.

If all it took to defeat him was Kid Trunks, Goten and rusty Gohan then all it would take for Vegetto to defeat him is to look at him. I don't know how someone losing to those 3 would put up a fight with someone who's on a completely different playing field from said 3.

He is the most powerful Saiyan of all.

He's not even close and if anything he's the weakest.

If we're looking at Z from the time he was introduced in till the end of its run then this is where he'd be based on what we've seen :

Ssj Vegetto
Ssj Gogeta
Mystic Gohan
Ssj3 Gotenks
Ssj Gotenks
Ssj2 Vegeta and Goku
Ssj2 Cell games Gohan
Buu arc Ssj Vegeta and Goku
Cell games Ssj Goku
Movie 8 powered up Ssj Goku
Lssj Broly
25th Tenkaichi Ssj2 Gohan

As you can see, he doesn't even make it into the top 10 and that's just going by Z so he'll go down even more once you take Ssj4 and what we saw in Super into account.

[Hugo Boss]

Toei and Koyama can say whatever they want but that won't change the facts presented to us in the movies and Z which clearly show Broly is far from being the strongest character. I think he barely makes it into the top 20.

Toei’s staff knows better than anyone about their work. I honestly don’t see what is so complicated about accepting this. That’s like saying Toriyama can’t tell who is stronger between the characters he wrote.

Even Koyama himself adhresses those numerous debates about Broly’s strength. It’s not like he has any doubts.

[sintzu]

Toei’s staff knows better than anyone about their work.

You mean the same Toei that had Piccolo destroy Goku's ship (in the filler leading up to Vegeta and Nappa's arrival) only to have Goku say Bulma's father was working on it for him ? Like I said, they can say what they want but that won't change what they presented to us on screen.

[Hugo Boss]

Toei’s staff knows better than anyone about their work.

You mean the same Toei that had Piccolo destroy Goku's ship (in the filler leading up to Vegeta and Nappa's arrival) only to have Goku say Bulma's father was working on it for him ? Like I said, they can say what they want but that won't change what they presented to us on screen.

So, because they can make mistakes leading to inconsistences, that somehow makes the scriptwriter a liar? He pretty much admitted he couldn’t come up with an oponnent stronger.

[dragon boss z]

Toei and Koyama can say whatever they want but that won't change the facts presented to us in the movies and Z which clearly show Broly is far from being the strongest character. I think he barely makes it into the top 20.

Toei’s staff knows better than anyone about their work. I honestly don’t see what is so complicated about accepting this. That’s like saying Toriyama can’t tell who is stronger between the characters he wrote.

Even Koyama himself adhresses those numerous debates about Broly’s strength. It’s not like he has any doubts.

One writer does not get authority of who is the strongest in Toiryama's verse or characters he did not create or own himself. If the creator of Naruto said Naruto can beat Goku, does that make it true? No. What if if said that an then Toriyama said Goku can beat Naruto? Neither one of them is an authority on the others work so neither statement holds up. But Kishimoto has the power to say one Naruto character can beat another, and Toriyama can say one dragon ball character can beat another. Yes, this is between two dragon ball characters, but dragon ball is Toriyama's work while you can say Broly is the work of the other writers. If the movie doesn't back up his statement then he can't just decide Broly is stronger than ssj Vegito or Buuhan, as he did not create or write those characters. I would even say it goes the other way as well, if Toriyama said one of his characters beats Broly that really wouldn't work either as he did not write the story of the Broly movie so his opinion might not even be valid in that case. The only time a power statement from a content creator holds true is if they are the owner of BOTH characters, which isn't the case here.

[Hugo Boss]

Toei and Koyama can say whatever they want but that won't change the facts presented to us in the movies and Z which clearly show Broly is far from being the strongest character. I think he barely makes it into the top 20.

Toei’s staff knows better than anyone about their work. I honestly don’t see what is so complicated about accepting this. That’s like saying Toriyama can’t tell who is stronger between the characters he wrote.

Even Koyama himself adhresses those numerous debates about Broly’s strength. It’s not like he has any doubts.

One writer does not get authority of who is the strongest in Toiryama's verse or characters he did not create or own himself. If the creator of Naruto said Naruto can beat Goku, does that make it true? No. What if if said that an then Toriyama said Goku can beat Naruto? Neither one of them is an authority on the others work so neither statement holds up. But Kishimoto has the power to say one Naruto character can beat another, and Toriyama can say one dragon ball character can beat another. Yes, this is between two dragon ball characters, but dragon ball is Toriyama's work while you can say Broly is the work of the other writers. If the movie doesn't back up his statement then he can't just decide Broly is stronger than ssj Vegito or Buuhan, as he did not create or write those characters. I would even say it goes the other way as well, if Toriyama said one of his characters beats Broly that really wouldn't work either as he did not write the story of the Broly movie so his opinion might not even be valid in that case. The only time a power statement from a content creator holds true is if they are the owner of BOTH characters, which isn't the case here.

Koyama wrote all the movie antagonists before Beerus and worked as the series organizer, one of the most important positions in Toei’s staff handling Dragon Ball tv series. So, his job is literally creating stories on one side and putting things together on the other. I’m afraid he had more investment on this matter than Toriyama himself. Now, it’s Toriyama who is writing Broly’s character, so he can do whatever he wants with him.

[RandomGuy96]

What a member of the staff says doesn't actually matter unless it's on the page/screen. Not even a little bit. If the writer wanted to convey that, perhaps he should have shown such a thing on-screen, instead of having Gohan, Goten, and Trunks obliterate Broly, followed by Goku casually remarking that he could handle Broly in Hell.

[RecolorSaiyan]

If Toriyama does an interview 3 months from now in which he claims Namek Saga Goku could defeat BoG Beerus, are we now going to pretend like that is true?

Cause everything ON-SCREEN tells us super vegetto punts old broly into the sky with no difficulty

[Hulk10]

Broly is a prodigal Saiyan, like Frieza is a prodigal member of his race and Frieza is the strongest one of his race and therefore Broly is too.

[RecolorSaiyan]

Broly is a prodigal Saiyan, like Frieza is a prodigal member of his race and Frieza is the strongest one of his race and therefore Broly is too.

The question isn't about potential though. Broly from the Z movies has NO chance vs Super Vegetto just like Namek Freeza had no chance in a hypothetical fight with Super Vegetto

[Hulk10]

Broly is a prodigal Saiyan, like Frieza is a prodigal member of his race and Frieza is the strongest one of his race and therefore Broly is too.

The question isn't about potential though. Broly from the Z movies has NO chance vs Super Vegetto just like Namek Freeza had no chance in a hypothetical fight with Super Vegetto

As he was in the films no, but in his advanced forms, then he would do well.