Gohan SSJ vs Gohan SSJ2 breakdown

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Gohan SSJ vs Gohan SSJ2 breakdown

Post by ahill1 » Tue Aug 28, 2018 1:26 am

So I decided to gather all the points regarding the SSJ and SSJ2 debate in one single post. Enjoy!


Gohan was a SSJ


The most undenieable argument someone will use to defend it is the art. Gohan was clearly portrayed as a SSJ looking just at the art. The first appearence of a SSJ2 in the manga was through Gohan in the Cell Games, which was described in the Daizenshuu as a SSJ2. He had a spikier aura and sparks on his aura for 90% of the time. It disappeared, although for a very short while and quickly reappeared after and some of the panels he didn't have sparks was even due to the absence of aura, and as many argue, the sparks are a trait of the aura, they happen when the aura is on, and no aura, no sparks.

Image

Image

Image

So clearly constant sparks, and the fews panels he doesn't have it are easily overshadowed by the ones he constantly DOES have it. Saying we can't really say the sparks are a trait of SSJ2 because they aren't present through 100% of the time and are rather present through 90% or more of the time is a logical fallacy. Even more when we might have a confirmation that an aura with sparks and one without one are a clearly differentiation between SSJ and SSJ2 for the author himself, who makes this point through Goku himself differentiating SSJ and SSJ2 before Babidi:

Image

Some people use Babidi's line in the next panel as a way to invalidate the argument, though what Babidi really says is "ridiculous transformations... there's no great change, is there?", which just means SSJ2 doesn't look too different from SSJ, not that there's no difference at all.


Gohan against Dabura is clearly missing those SSJ2's traits. He doesn't have sparks for ANY moment (which isn't cmparable with missing it for very few panels), and whilst one could argue he does have the hair as a SSJ2 trait, he also displayed a hair with one strand when transforming against during Videl's beatdown, when he was 'almost undeniably' a SSJ. So the hair can easily be argued as an art change, or just a small oversight from Toriyama -- yeah, missing one strand of hair is way easier to be looked upon as an oversight than missing a way clearer trait like the constant sparks --


Even when SSJ2 was already kind of 'outdated' and overshadowed by the SSJ3, Akira Toriyama still made a point to detail Vegeta's aura against Kid Boo with sparks, also only missing it for very few panels.

Image



Also, concerning the narrative/the story, there're some points one could use to favor the SSJ side as well. Vegeta states he'd defeat Dabura and pretty much considers that level Gohan and Dabura fought at as a very low one -- Goku also agrees, although in a less 'arrogant or straight way' -- yet Goku doesn't suspect Vegeta had SSJ2, as seen by his surprise when Vegeta transformed:

Image


Majin Vegeta SSJ is also arguably treated as a bigger deal than Dabura. One could say Dabura was expecting him to make a better job because Gohan would have to be fighting against a 'friend', hence not fighting at his fullest. But it still would be pretty much stupid for Dabura to choose someone weaker than him as that someone wouldn't be able to deal damage to Gohan, seeing as himself could barely move the damage meter when launching a very powerful attack. You could say Dabura doesn't know how strong Vegeta is, but since he could say there were three people with exceptional power hiding behind those rocks, it's understandable he'd also manage to gauge Vegeta's powers when seeing Babidi push it 'out of him'.


Gohan was a SSJ2

The mojority of people who support this will use the narrative as a flat out indicator of Gohan fighting in SSJ2 against Dabura. First thing would be Goku comparing Dabura with Cell and later stating he's way stronger than thought. Well, even if you think Goku meant the Cell he fought, he later stated that Dabura's way stronger than thought, and as many would argue kid Gohan wasn't stronger than suppressed Cell -- had only a speed advantage -- let alone MUCH stronger. Yet, Gohan could stay pretty evenly with Dabura, and was barely damaged from his blast. Since Gohan was stated to be way weaker than his CGs self, him staying somewhat even with Dabura doesn't make sense if he were using a form as low as SSJ.

Image --> Gohan barely damaged upon receiving a blast from someone way stronger than Cell.

Yet, Goku made clear in the Cell Games Gohan's anger was the only way to beat Cell... Gohan's current power was nice and all, but the anger was da real s***. Even Gohan stated that now he sees what Goku was planning since the beginning -- Gohan getting angry -- and that that is the way to beat Cell. So, a considerably weaker Gohan going toe to toe with an opponent like that doesn't make much sense if he is using just SSJ.


Vegeta is also very impatient over Gohan's struggle with Dabura, saying Gohan was stronger in the CGs and that Dabura's not an opponent he should have this much problem with. Again, without even making reference of a form that Gohan used minutes ago that would undoubtedly defeat Dabura, if Gohan was a SSJ1. Not only this, but Goku establishes that Gohan has to get angry like in the CGs to triumph in the fight, pretty much emphasizing Gohan's hidden powers. If Gohan was a SSJ1, shouldn't be saying "do what you did at the Budokai" suffice here? Since Dabura would be pretty much easily defeatable by Gohan SSJ2.

Kaioshin also pretty much parrots what Goku says:

Chapter: 460 (DBZ 266), P10.2-3
Context: after Boo seems to be dead on arrival
Kaioshin: “Goku and Vegeta are probably having a roughly even fight…I’ll pin Babidi down. After that, if you can manage to defeat Dabra, then Babidi’s scheme will be completely wiped out! So then! Now’s the time to get angry, like Goku said! Get angry and show me your true power! Gohan, peace is almost at hand!”
Kaioshin saw Gohan SSJ2 at the Budokai and even considered the possibility of it not being his full power. It wouldn't make sense for Kaioshin to urge some hidden power out of Gohan he heard from Goku if what he saw at the Budokai were already enough to get the job done.

Furthermore, you also have Kaioshin telling Kibito that what he saw from Gohan at the Budokai wasn't his full power, meaning Gohan had to have showed more power after the Budokai (or Kaioshin thought that way).
Chapter: 470 (DBZ 276), P5.2-4
Context: Kaioshin says the situation isn’t completely hopeless
Kibito: “Huh…!? You can’t mean…Does this have anything to do with Son Gohan…?”
Kaioshin: “That’s right…His power is far beyond our imagination. If we took it and changed it into something even more unreal, he might be able to surpass Majin Boo…”
Kibito: “Wh-what!? That can’t be…”
Kaioshin: “You didn’t see how amazing those 3 Saiyans were, so you probably couldn’t imagine…”

Chapter: 471 (DBZ 277), P10.2-4
Kaioshin: “I want Gohan to use the Z Sword to defeat Majin Boo. Knowing him, he should definitely be able to use it.”
Kibito: “A-are you serious, Lord Kaioshin…?!! There’s no way that some human would be able to use the Z Sword!! That legendary sword which not merely myself, but numerous Kaioshins were utterly unable to handle…”
Kaioshin: “You were dead, Kibito, so you didn’t get to see Gohan here’s unbelievably tremendous power.”
This is directly linked with Kaioshin stating that what Gohan showed at the Budokai might not have been his full power:

Image



Another nice point is Gohan tiring out and needing a Senzu Beam after Dabura's battle, simply because he had used a lot of stamina:

Image

Yet, this goes against the main advantage a full power SSJ is supposed to have, according to Goku:

Image


The regular SSJ was conditioned to minimaze the strain on their bodies during battle:

Image

Daizenshuu established that what was initially shown from the battle between Gohan and Dabura was its beginning, and Gohan didn't make use of chi blasts, didn't take much damage from Dabura's blast, anything that'd deplete his stamina, unless he was in a form he had no full control over/wasn't trained to minimize the strain during battle -- SSJ2.





I can later offer some counter arguments to both sides (yeah, I have some points that might as well counter the narrative being so directed towards SSJ2, mainly counters towards the SSJ2 POV), but I think I'll just let you guys with the points concerning the two sides now.

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Re: Gohan SSJ vs Gohan SSJ2 breakdown

Post by Desassina » Tue Aug 28, 2018 2:18 am

You have just opened Schrodinger's Cat box and looked inside for a dead or alive one. People think of SSJ2 and somebody else will have seen SSJ. The story never went out of its way to label Gohan something over the other. The Daizenshuu tried twice and it was made inconsistent. I have to ask: why does it matter? He was already transformed.

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Re: Gohan SSJ vs Gohan SSJ2 breakdown

Post by KBABZ » Tue Aug 28, 2018 2:41 am

Throwing this in regarding the hair: Gohan's hair in the Buu arc is already short and trending upwards, so it would be really difficult for Toriyama to express that Gohan was using SSJ2 using just that considering how similar it would be to SSJ1. If he wanted to make it clear that Gohan was using SSJ2, he would have drawn in the sparks for the battle.

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Re: Gohan SSJ vs Gohan SSJ2 breakdown

Post by dbgtFO » Tue Aug 28, 2018 9:34 am

He's a Super Saiyan and the plot is inconsistent, probably due to a change in direction by Toriyama in regards to Gohan's status.
He is on record stating that the balance of strength between characters would change as he drew the series and this seems like a textbook example of that in action with Gohan demoted to SS level and Dabra by default too.
Most likely it didn't appeal visually to him to have weak Gohan sporting the same awesome aura and lightning as the strong duo of Goku and Vegeta.
It should be pointed out that Gohan going SS2 at the Tournament is never brought up again after the Yakon fight.
Nor is Dabra confirmed to be as strong(or stronger)as Cell, which seems like Toriyama was finding a way to make it vague, because of the change in direction.

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Re: Gohan SSJ vs Gohan SSJ2 breakdown

Post by Floader » Tue Aug 28, 2018 12:24 pm

So something that I think is important to distinguish is that, at this point in the series, the term Super Saiyan 2 had not yet been adapted. The term was used for the first time when Goku fought Fat Boo. When Gohan turned “Super Saiyan 2” against Cell, at the time it was strictly the manifestation of Gohan’s full power brought out through rage. The new, more intense aura demonstrated that Gohan’s power was now on a new level compared to the other Super Saiyans.

Fast forward 7 years, and Gohan is now due to rust unable to unleash the full power that he displayed against Cell. Goku says as much when he tries to coax Gohan into getting like he did against Cell. Gohan’s inner monologue then later tells us that he’s trying but that he can’t be like he was back then. This would that Gohan was fighting with full power he was capable of against Dabra.

I think the difference in aura is also used to indicate to the reader that Gohan is not in the same level as Goku/Vegeta, the same way it was used in the Cell Games as a visualization of the fact that the other Super Saiyans were not on Gohan’s level.

Narratively as well it make sense that he’s Super Saiyan. While Gohan is fighting Dabra, Goku acknowledges with Vegeta that both of them could handle Dabra pretty easily. This is before Goku knows that Vegeta can become a Super Saiyan 2. So that means Gohan is only a Super Saiyan unless you believe SS Goku/Vegeta >> SS2 Gohan/Dabra.

As far as Gohan turning Super Saiyan 2 at the Budokai, Toriyama is notoriously forgetful and as acknowledged shifting narrative mid-story. So personally I think he either changed his mind mid-story about Gohan being able to turn Super Saiyan 2 at will, or he just plain forgot about it.

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Re: Gohan SSJ vs Gohan SSJ2 breakdown

Post by theherodjl » Tue Aug 28, 2018 1:46 pm

I just say that Gohan was SSJ1.5 because he showed greater strength than his ordinary SSJ form, but he didn't transform into SSJ2 or at least not completely. His anger was pushing him to a near-SSJ2 level, but he couldn't keep it up due to his energy still being depleted from Yamu & Spopovich's assault.
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Re: Gohan SSJ vs Gohan SSJ2 breakdown

Post by Ssjcell » Tue Aug 28, 2018 2:00 pm

This will always be argued it's obvious he was a super saiyan , he would have demolished dabura as a ss2 ... He was simply doing the Goku thing of battling at your opponents power level until you feel like you have to step it up and the fight was interrupted by Vegeta and dabura's super hearing...

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Re: Gohan SSJ vs Gohan SSJ2 breakdown

Post by sintzu » Tue Aug 28, 2018 2:13 pm

In the manga he was clearly a Ssj. He was able to transform against the Kai but if you go back to when Trunks met Goku, he told him that he couldn't transform at will until he trained to do so, something we know Gohan didn't do so if Goku couldn't transform at will before training Ssj, then neither should Gohan with Ssj2.

The anime is a bit different as during the Cell arc it portrayed Vegeta and Trunks in their Assj forms while the manga just had them using Ssj so you could make an argument that Gohan was a Ssj2 in the anime as the sparks weren't always drawn.
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Re: Gohan SSJ vs Gohan SSJ2 breakdown

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Tue Aug 28, 2018 3:24 pm

Sparks aren't a definitive trait of SSJ2. We've seen SSJs with sparks and SSJ2s without them. Sparks only mean someone is powerful.

That being said, Gohan was a SSJ2, most evidence points towards it. If we had only the artwork he could've been a SSJ, but it's almost stated that he was a SSJ, and the lack of sparks isn't enough of a contradiction on it's own.
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Re: Gohan SSJ vs Gohan SSJ2 breakdown

Post by ahill1 » Tue Aug 28, 2018 4:16 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:Sparks aren't a definitive trait of SSJ2. We've seen SSJs with sparks and SSJ2s without them. Sparks only mean someone is powerful.

That being said, Gohan was a SSJ2, most evidence points towards it. If we had only the artwork he could've been a SSJ, but it's almost stated that he was a SSJ, and the lack of sparks isn't enough of a contradiction on it's own.
Have you changed your opinion on this?

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Re: Gohan SSJ vs Gohan SSJ2 breakdown

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Tue Aug 28, 2018 4:26 pm

ahill1 wrote:Have you changed your opinion on this?
Yup. VoR may be an arrogant prick, but he's pretty damn good arguing this subject. Plus i've noticed SSJ2 Gohan at the Budokai wasn't retconed when he was at the ship, and Daizenshuu 2 and 7 don't contradict each other in this subject.

Everything falls perfectly in place when you read the manga with Gohan being a SSJ2 in mind. Kaioshin's statement about Gohan being suppressed at the Budokai and only using FP against Dabra makes perfect sense now.
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Re: Gohan SSJ vs Gohan SSJ2 breakdown

Post by Kaboom » Tue Aug 28, 2018 4:47 pm

Guess I've got a new thread to keep a close eye on...

Well, here's the way I see it. Basically, I think it actually ended up being a minor manga-to-anime difference.

In the manga, Gohan was only ever a Super Saiyan 2 once, against Kibito at the tournament, because that's the only time he was drawn as one or actually stated to be one. Toriyama made it incredibly easy to tell the forms apart at a glance through the big honkin' lightning bolts that are present in the aura for 99% of the time during every confirmed instance of Super Saiyan 2... and even had Goku plainly lay it out for us just in case that wasn't enough. But in case that still wasn't enough, we also have multiple guidebooks pointing out the lighting bolts as a trait of Super Saiyan 2. I know of at least three: the Trunks Animanga, the 3rd Daizenshuu Animation volume, and the GT Perfect Files.
Between what we can see and read in the original work and gleam in the guidebooks, I doubt they could have possibly made it any clear: aura sparks are definitely a trademark trait of Super Saiyan 2. So given that Gohan only ever displayed them at the 25th Tournament, which is also the only time he's ever said to be using it, then that's the only time he ever used Super Saiyan 2. He did not use Super Saiyan 2 against Dabra later on.

At least, that's how it is for the visually consistent manga version of things, anyway. The anime is a different story, though. For Gohan's fight with Dabra, Toei actually added some stuff in their version to indicate that Gohan was using the form. While they're typically inconsistent with the aura sparks and neglected to include them here, they did use some unique, higher-contrast aura shading that usually shows up for Super Saiyan 2 in the anime. On top of that, they wrote in some new dialogue saying that Gohan was "trying his very best" and "opened his power up full-throttle" or whatever. So in the anime Gohan actually was a Super Saiyan 2, because they neglected the sparks but added extra stuff of their own to specify that he was.

Finally, I think this manga/anime difference approach corrects what seems to be a conflict between two guidebooks. Daizenshuu #2's 'Growing Up' guide indicates that "High School Era Super Saiyan 2" Gohan only appeared in Volume 37 (at the tournament) and not beyond it, while his fight with Dabra was entirely within Volume 38. But then Dabra's bio in Daizenshuu 7's character guide is literally the only source in existence that I'm aware of to say that Dabra fought specifically against Super Saiyan 2 Gohan.

But while the guide in D2 is only concerned with the manga version of things (using its volume numbers for reference), Daizenshuu 7 as a whole is more all-inclusive and incorporates anime-only content too. So just assume that D7's bit about Dabra only applies to the anime version of the fight, and bada-bing, the conflict is resolved and everything fits together neatly again. If you'd rather not make assumptions... well then, in the face of the FOUR other guidebook sources that either tell us when Gohan used SS2 or tell us what SS2 looks like, it's easy to just dismiss the ONE bit saying otherwise as an outlier.


TL;DR --
  • The manga and guidebooks make it abundantly clear that the aura sparks are a trademark sign of Super Saiyan 2.
  • In the original highly-consistent manga, Gohan was only ever SS2 against Kibito, as that's the only time he was ever said to be one or drawn with the sparks.
  • In the anime, Gohan did actually use SS2 against Dabra, because Toei added extra visual cues and dialogue of their own indicating it.
  • The only apparent guidebook conflict on the matter can be rectified by applying the manga-anime difference.
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Re: Gohan SSJ vs Gohan SSJ2 breakdown

Post by RandomGuy96 » Tue Aug 28, 2018 5:42 pm

Daizenshuu 7 outright states that Gohan was a Super Saiyan 2 and that Dabra has a battle power exactly equal to Cell's, which is reprinted in Chozenshu 4:
viewtopic.php?t=32226
Dabura
King of the Demon Realm
History:Though his exact age is unknown, he has lived for over 300 years.
First Appearance: chapter 446
Special Characteristics: The man who boasts the greatest power in the Demon Realm, a place said to exist on the opposite side of the universe which Goku and co. inhabit. He had his heart manipulated by Babidi, and became his underling. On top of having battle power equal to Cell’s, he is also skilled in magic. After dying, Enma Daio judged that as king of the Dark Demon Realm he would be happy in Hell, and so he sent him to Heaven.
Techniques:petrifaction, various forms of magic
Battles: A fairly even battle unfolded between him and Super Saiyan 2 Gohan. Afterwards, he sensed that the revived Majin Buu was dangerous, and tried to defeat him, but was turned into a cookie and eaten. Despite being the strongest in the Demon Realm, feared even by Kaioshin, he came to an extremely pathetic end…
Every other bit of supplemental material, from the Super manga to the various video games to the anime, also agrees, with the latter having two lines where Goku outright states that Gohan went at Dabra with his full power. We even get a nice convenient power reading for Goku in the manga (3,000 kiri) and Dabra saying that he's above that (4,000+ kili in the anime). It's pretty open and shut. Gohan is also concretely a Super Saiyan 2 in the fight for the story of various video games, like Tenkaichi 1, and the Kamehameha he used against Buu's egg is also always given to SS2 Gohan, with the Gohan that fired at Buu's ball being visually identical to the one who fought Dabra.

There's also this if you really want to get into "authorial intention" over story structure and outright statements in supplemental material:
Image
The art for Movie 10 very clearly has 2 different concepts for different SS forms of teen Gohan, which is also observable in the movie. The model for SS2 (both battle damaged and not battle damaged) is exactly the same as SS2 Gohan from the 25th Budokai down to the exact linework.
Image
On that note, we can all agree that Gohan was a SS2 in Movie 10 despite his aura yes? That the primary indicator of his forms was his minor appearance differences? And that these differences were designed and designated by Toriyama himself on these model sheets? Then should it not be noted that Movie 10 was in production at the exact same time the Dabra fight was being released in the manga? Literally the exact same time that the hair appearance was shown to be different by Toriyama, Toriyama was drawing the Dabra fight with the appearance of SS2's hair.

That's a bit too big of a coincidence for them to be totally unrelated, when it's the exact same issue (SS2 hair, but no lightning)), especially when we're told years later in Daizenshuu and other sources he's a SS2, despite the aura in the exact same way.
Kaboom wrote:But in case that still wasn't enough, we also have multiple guidebooks pointing out the lighting bolts as a trait of Super Saiyan 2. I know of at least three: the Trunks Animanga, the 3rd Daizenshuu Animation volume, and the GT Perfect Files.
It seems more than a bit dishonest to back your preconceptions with anime-specific guidebooks, when the anime outright states that Gohan was a SS2 in that fight.
Finally, I think this manga/anime difference approach corrects what seems to be a conflict between two guidebooks. Daizenshuu #2's 'Growing Up' guide indicates that "High School Era Super Saiyan 2" Gohan only appeared in Volume 37 (at the tournament) and not beyond it,
Daizenshuu #2 never says that. I don't know why you're still repeating this myth years later.
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Re: Gohan SSJ vs Gohan SSJ2 breakdown

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Tue Aug 28, 2018 5:58 pm

RandomGuy96 wrote:There's also this if you really want to get into "authorial intention" over story structure and outright statements in supplemental material:
Image
The art for Movie 10 very clearly has 2 different concepts for different SS forms of teen Gohan, which is also observable in the movie. The model for SS2 (both battle damaged and not battle damaged) is exactly the same as SS2 Gohan from the 25th Budokai down to the exact linework.
Image
On that note, we can all agree that Gohan was a SS2 in Movie 10 despite his aura yes? That the primary indicator of his forms was his minor appearance differences? And that these differences were designed and designated by Toriyama himself on these model sheets? Then should it not be noted that Movie 10 was in production at the exact same time the Dabra fight was being released in the manga? Literally the exact same time that the hair appearance was shown to be different by Toriyama, Toriyama was drawing the Dabra fight with the appearance of SS2's hair.

That's a bit too big of a coincidence for them to be totally unrelated, when it's the exact same issue (SS2 hair, but no lightning)), especially when we're told years later in Daizenshuu and other sources he's a SS2, despite the aura in the exact same way.
I find doubtful that the hair could actually be used to indicate Gohan's forms, as those drawings were most likely made when the Boo Arc was on it's early stages, but from Vol. 37 and onwards Gohan had that bang even as a SSJ:
Image
ahill1 wrote:Another nice point is Gohan tiring out and needing a Senzu Beam after Dabura's battle, simply because he had used a lot of stamina:
Ahill, what about what i told you before about this arguemtn? To you genuinely think this is a good argument, or did you just forgot to remove it again?
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Re: Gohan SSJ vs Gohan SSJ2 breakdown

Post by Kaboom » Tue Aug 28, 2018 6:13 pm

RandomGuy96 wrote:It seems more than a bit dishonest to back your preconceptions with anime-specific guidebooks, when the anime outright states that Gohan was a SS2 in that fight.
So? If nothing else, despite Toei omitting them these guidebooks are still saying that the sparks should be there.
Daizenshuu #2 never says that. I don't know why you're still repeating this myth years later.
I know what you're getting at, but weaselly attempts to undermine or reinterpret what the guidebook says don't make it a "myth."

Every entry in that guide for a character's state/form/etc give a volume number for when they first appeared, as well as an ""ikou" (+/"and after") for if they used it beyond that volume. "High School Era Super Saiyan 2" Gohan simply says "Volume 37" without the "ikou." Indicating he didn't use it after that volume. It means what it means.



All nitpicking aside... I ultimately trust what Toriyama told us vicariously through Goku above all else. He could not possibly have made it easier to tell the difference between SS1 and SS2 at a glance, and I'd rather not pretend he and my own eyes are lying to me.
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Re: Gohan SSJ vs Gohan SSJ2 breakdown

Post by PFM18 » Tue Aug 28, 2018 6:17 pm

If something like this happened in DBS people would just whine about it and say "lol Super logic" instead of taking this intense amount of time to make sense of it.

My 2 cents is that it would be dumb for Gohan not to be SSJ2 so I'm gonna go with that

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Re: Gohan SSJ vs Gohan SSJ2 breakdown

Post by ahill1 » Tue Aug 28, 2018 6:25 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:Ahill, what about what i told you before about this arguemtn? To you genuinely think this is a good argument, or did you just forgot to remove it again?
Could you repeat the counter-argument for this tibit? I think I have forgotten it, sorry. But yeah, I admitted that not every point was absent from its counter-points, so even if a point could still be countered, I'd still like to include it as a kind of backing up for whichever side you are adhering to.

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Re: Gohan SSJ vs Gohan SSJ2 breakdown

Post by RandomGuy96 » Tue Aug 28, 2018 6:32 pm

Kaboom wrote:So? If nothing else, despite Toei omitting them these guidebooks are still saying that the sparks should be there.
Which they promptly contradict by showing that it's not a requirement and explicitly having SS2s not sporting it in their works. It's quite hypocritical to pick and choose flavor text related to Toei's works as evidence of your position, while at the same time completely ignoring the works themselves and pretending that they have no validity.
I know what you're getting at, but weaselly attempts to undermine or reinterpret what the guidebook says
Like you're doing now?
Every entry in that guide for a character's state/form/etc give a volume number for when they first appeared, as well as an ""ikou" (+/"and after") for if they used it beyond that volume. "High School Era Super Saiyan 2" Gohan simply says "Volume 37" without the "ikou." Indicating he didn't use it after that volume. It means what it means.
It doesn't "mean" anything past your own interpretation. Daizenshuu #2 doesn't say what you said it says. Straight-up. It's an omission, an inconsistently applied one, and not a direct rebuttal to the two straight statements in a later guidebook.
All nitpicking aside... I ultimately trust what Toriyama told us vicariously through Goku above all else. He could not possibly have made it easier to tell the difference between SS1 and SS2 at a glance, and I'd rather not pretend he and my own eyes are lying to me.
He literally introduced Goku's SS2 form without the lightning aura:
Image
So, in-universe, it's not actually a requirement. Never has been.

All you have left to fall back on, then, is vague guesses about authorial intent ("well sure, he drew it without lightning a few times, but he really meant that the sparks should only be drawn in protracted fight scenes", or whatever your explanation is this week) which are unprovable. In which case, I would again direct you to the model sheets produced specifically for the sole purpose of outlining the difference between Gohan's SS1 and SS2 forms, distributed to the anime staff at the exact same time the Dabra fight was being drawn in the manga, which clearly shows Gohan's hair as being the main indicator of his form. After that, I would probably point out the massive number of story contradictions brought on by the idea that Gohan was only using SS1, as well as the narrative fact that Dabra is only ever compared to Cell in the first place so he can be a stand-in for the previous villain and get worfed. A role that's meaningless if Cell could've disposed of Dabra with the same ease that Fat Buu did.

I would then point out that literally every piece of supplemental material, from Daizenshuu 7 to Chozenshu 4 to the anime to the video games, outright state that Gohan used SS2 against Dabra and against Buu's ball. With other material, like the Super manga, further heavily implying it (a bloodlusted SS2 Trunks hitting Dabra as hard as he can deals no damage to him until Kaioshin paralyzes his defenses). Apparently none of the IP holders have a problem stating these facts over and over again. And Toriyama, who directly supervises a lot of these products, never feels the need to correct this oddly consistent "error."
Last edited by RandomGuy96 on Tue Aug 28, 2018 6:45 pm, edited 5 times in total.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: Gohan SSJ vs Gohan SSJ2 breakdown

Post by ahill1 » Tue Aug 28, 2018 6:34 pm

While I am not really adhering to either side here, and think that whichever route you choose to embark in has its merits, some poster at the U.K forum made a nice post for why Gohan might have gone all those chapters without showing the aura characteristic to a SSJ2. I think I'll quote him, noticing though that I don't necessarily think this is the truth:


"I believe there's a convincing reason for how this came to be: Toriyama probably hadn't yet cemented in his mind what Super Saiyan 2 is, or how it works, exactly.

It seems to me that the fierce aura and sparks are, at least at first, treated as if they're there to denote a level of power a Super Saiyan is at, more than being a sign they've transformed or are using a "higher multiplier". "Super" Perfect Cell doesn't undergo any sort of transformation at all, but he's reached a new level of power that gives him a fierce aura and sparks as a result. Goku and Vegeta have surpassed the level of power that even Gohan was at as a child, and also have a fierce aura and sparks. Teen Gohan, on the other hand, has gotten laughably weaker compared to what he was, and I think in Toriyama's mind at the time this was probably best expressed by drawing him in a state that visually displays decidedly less power.

We've already seen at the tournament that Gohan can already "go so far as to become a Super Saiyan that has surpassed the Super Saiyan wall" if desired, is noted that this probably wasn't even his full power by the character that had a completely "hands-on"—hands-off, really—encounter with this kind of Super Saiyan Gohan, and then directly confirmed him to have displayed an even greater power than this to the other character that it was explicitly shown it, despite never again visually transforming in to a Super Saiyan 2... Even Goku makes it clear that his "true" power isn't a result of his transforming further like he undeniably did earlier that day, but is a result of his becoming enraged as he had done against Cell.

Clearly there's a retcon, mistake, or some indecisiveness somewhere as to why some weaker version of Gohan displays clearly Super Saiyan 2 traits when even a hinted to be, and later confirmed to be, stronger version never does, and it's not even until Goku is about to become a Super Saiyan 3 that Super Saiyan 2 is clearly named and defined to us, as opposed to being talked about as though it were just some level of power surpassing that of a Super Saiyan or some supposed wall (limit) or something.

And this is to say nothing of what's said during the fight between Dabra and Gohan itself. Of course, I'm not absurd enough to state that the author unquestionably meant for him to be a "weak" Super Saiyan 2 against Dabra, but it's outright laughable to act as if the story itself in any way suggests he's merely a Super Saiyan, or that he definitely was meant to simply be as such. No one argues that's what the art says, though - for whatever reason. "

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Re: Gohan SSJ vs Gohan SSJ2 breakdown

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Tue Aug 28, 2018 6:48 pm

ahill1 wrote:Could you repeat the counter-argument for this tibit? I think I have forgotten it, sorry. But yeah, I admitted that not every point was absent from its counter-points, so even if a point could still be countered, I'd still like to include it as a kind of backing up for whichever side you are adhering to.
Mastering SSJ doesn't mean you don't eat up energy while fighting, Goku was pretty much wasted after his fight with Cell. The fight was already going on for a while (Roshi stated he sensed "A cluster of Ki" during the Trunks vs #18 fight, yet the narrator says the fight was still going on by the time the Budokai ended), so it's natural a rusty Gohan would get tired faster than Dabra. Plus SSJ2 is never implied to have any stamina issues.
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