Cell Games Piccolo

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Re: Cell Games Piccolo

Post by Desassina » Tue Sep 04, 2018 1:00 pm

Consider the fact that Piccolo was above the Super Saiyans post-Kami fusion, and that he trained only once to arrive at maybe Grade II SSJ Vegeta's power, while Trunks was perhaps in his previous Grade III level as a SSJ in the Cell Games. Neither Trunks nor Vegeta used the grades to their advantage against the Cell Jrs, which could mean that they had already surpassed them as Super Saiyans, but not quite accomplished their full power like Goku. For a single visit to the RoSaT, Piccolo is above a regular SSJ like he used to be, but merely on par with the best result that Vegeta got at first. In other words: he's well above 16 and still higher than Semi-Perfect Cell.

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Re: Cell Games Piccolo

Post by Kaboom » Tue Sep 04, 2018 3:59 pm

The terminology that Cell used to point out Vegeta and Trunks fighting back against the Cell Juniors wasn't an exclusive one. Meaning just because they're the ones he pointed out, it doesn't mean they're the ONLY ones who can do so. It's more like "EVEN Vegeta and Trunks" rather than "ONLY Vegeta and Trunks."

So even though Piccolo isn't strong enough to fight evenly with a Cell Junior like Vegeta and Trunks can, we still see him standing his ground and hanging on, which is decisively more than the Earthlings or exhausted Goku can manage. It all paints a picture that he's not TOO far behind the Juniors or Vegeta/Trunks.
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Re: Cell Games Piccolo

Post by RandomGuy96 » Tue Sep 04, 2018 4:54 pm

ahill1 wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:He is strong enough to stand against a Cell Jr, even after Cell orders them to kill their targets, and can trade blows with it, but can't "fight evenly" with it like Trunks and Vegeta can, and is in worse shape than they are. So, basically what the Cell Jr fight shows. It seems wrong to ignore such a clear and convenient indicator of power like that.
Can't Piccolo be fighting as well as Vegeta and Trunks? After all, Vegeta and Trunks were only the first names to come to Cell's mind... they weren't necessarily the only ones "barely holding their own".
I'm not even going off Cell's comment, but rather the state of the fighters. Piccolo is in worse shape than Vegeta/Trunks at the end of the fight but in better shape than Goku.
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RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: Cell Games Piccolo

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Tue Sep 04, 2018 5:12 pm

RandomGuy96 wrote:I'm not even going off Cell's comment, but rather the state of the fighters. Piccolo is in worse shape than Vegeta/Trunks at the end of the fight but in better shape than Goku.
In this case tell me: How far are those two from each other based solely on shape?
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
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Re: Cell Games Piccolo

Post by RandomGuy96 » Tue Sep 04, 2018 5:21 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:I'm not even going off Cell's comment, but rather the state of the fighters. Piccolo is in worse shape than Vegeta/Trunks at the end of the fight but in better shape than Goku.
In this case tell me: How far are those two from each other based solely on shape?
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
Both are covered in injuries, but Veggie has more, plus a swelled eye, and can barely stand, while Recoome is standing and fighting. So Recoome is superior, obviously, but Veggie can still put up a fight.
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RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: Cell Games Piccolo

Post by ekrolo2 » Tue Sep 04, 2018 6:05 pm

I'd say he's above the Vegeta who beat on Cell, around half of Grade 4 Goku's power while Vegeta and Trunks are worth 60-70%
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Re: Cell Games Piccolo

Post by BWri » Wed Sep 05, 2018 10:49 am

PFM18 wrote:
Michsi wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
See but then Trunks and Vegeta were able to hold their own against Cell Juniors and Piccolo couldn't. How could Piccolo be that strong if he falls under the cataegory of "gets dominated by Cell Juniors" along with Krillin, Tenshinhan, Yamcha, weakened Goku etc?

I can't remember how the anime handles this part, but the manga at least (including the chapter cover) seems to imply that he could hold his own. He is definitely not quite as strong as Vegeta and Trunks, but he is the only one aside from those two who is still standing and fighting when Gohan transforms. It's true that Cell doesn't mention him when he talks about how Vegeta and Trunks are doing okay against Cell Jr. (even though we see that they're not) but he says that mostly to get Gohan riled up because of Goku's condition. In that case, mentioning Piccolo also being danger would've only benefited him.
No, the manga explicitly states that Vegeta and Trunks are the only ones able to hold their own. I don't see this as a result of Cell trying to get Gohan riled up but rather just a simple observation on his part.
As already stated, the manga images contradict that, from the cover to a few of the panels. Piccolo is standing with Vegeta and Trunks even after Cell gives the kill order which indicates that he isn't too far from them power-wise. Vegeta and Trunks may possibly be holding their own with offense, but Piccolo was at least able to survive thanks to his defense, at least that's what this implies to me. It overall implies that Piccolo is close enough to give his opponent a hard time, but ultimately on the losing end of the battle and that Vegeta and Trunks could possibly win their battle. I think it's ludicrous to assume he's that much weaker than them at this point, considering the gap between them before everyone went into the RoSaT. I know they're Saiyans but Piccolo was no slouch at that point.
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Re: Cell Games Piccolo

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Wed Sep 05, 2018 8:33 pm

RandomGuy96 wrote:Both are covered in injuries, but Veggie has more, plus a swelled eye, and can barely stand, while Recoome is standing and fighting. So Recoome is superior, obviously, but Veggie can still put up a fight.
Vegeta being winded and not standing right is probably because he just put all of his power in a Ki blast trying to kill Recoome, though. Other than that they look completely even: While Vegeta does have a swelled eye, Recoome is the one with more bruises here, not to mention his armor is completely gone and his spandex suit is pretty wasted, whereas Vegeta at least still has his armor.

I think we can draw a nice parallel between this and Piccolo vs Cell Jr if we only analyse Vegeta vs Recoome's outcome to make it a fair comparison. Both Piccolo and Vegeta can at least stay on their ground, with Vegeta faring slightly better given how Recoome is fully bruised whilst the Mini Cell is in perfect shape, but both would've gotten taken down pretty quickly if their foes were serious. On the next page Vegeta even says Recoome is treating him like a toy.
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Re: Cell Games Piccolo

Post by RandomGuy96 » Wed Sep 05, 2018 11:10 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:Both are covered in injuries, but Veggie has more, plus a swelled eye, and can barely stand, while Recoome is standing and fighting. So Recoome is superior, obviously, but Veggie can still put up a fight.
Vegeta being winded and not standing right is probably because he just put all of his power in a Ki blast trying to kill Recoome, though.
Or maybe it's just because he got hit really, really hard.
I think we can draw a nice parallel between this and Piccolo vs Cell Jr if we only analyse Vegeta vs Recoome's outcome to make it a fair comparison. Both Piccolo and Vegeta can at least stay on their ground, with Vegeta faring slightly better given how Recoome is fully bruised whilst the Mini Cell is in perfect shape, but both would've gotten taken down pretty quickly if their foes were serious. On the next page Vegeta even says Recoome is treating him like a toy.
If anything you're just backing up my point that Piccolo is pretty close to the Junior. Because Virginia wasn't that far off from Recoome. A normal person with those injuries would be in the emergency room.
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RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: Cell Games Piccolo

Post by dragon boss z » Thu Sep 06, 2018 12:15 am

I would say he was at max Vegeta grade 2 level, but probably below considering Vegeta didn't freak out when sensing Piccolo come out of the chamber.

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Re: Cell Games Piccolo

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Sat Sep 08, 2018 6:09 pm

RandomGuy96 wrote: Or maybe it's just because he got hit really, really hard.
Or both.

Though either way it doesn't matter. I asked you to provide an answer based on shape, so me bringing up something that happened during the fight comes off as hypocrital. Forget about that.
If anything you're just backing up my point that Piccolo is pretty close to the Junior. Because Virginia wasn't that far off from Recoome. A normal person with those injuries would be in the emergency room.
Not really. Most of the fight Vegeta is either getting his ass beaten or trying to ruin away and getting caught, and Recoome wasn't even trying. Yet their shapes would imply it was a pretty close fight.

We don't get to see Piccolo vs Cell Jr at all, but if a one sided fight like Vegeta vs Recoome looked had them in similiar shape by the end, then the Cell Jr being unharmed vs a pretty beaten down Piccolo would imply a even more one sided fight.

Btw, you said earlier that Piccolo performed better than Goku as if this were a notable feat. How strong you think Tired Goku is?
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Re: Cell Games Piccolo

Post by RandomGuy96 » Sat Sep 08, 2018 7:00 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Not really. Most of the fight Vegeta is either getting his ass beaten or trying to ruin away and getting caught, and Recoome wasn't even trying. Yet their shapes would imply it was a pretty close fight.
Yes, really. Look at Recoome's actual condition. Whether he says he was trying or not, the injuries he took would have been severe for just about any normal person.
We don't get to see Piccolo vs Cell Jr at all, but if a one sided fight like Vegeta vs Recoome looked had them in similiar shape by the end, then the Cell Jr being unharmed vs a pretty beaten down Piccolo would imply a even more one sided fight.
I don't think Recoome vs Vegeta was all that one-sided. And we do see Piccolo fight the Junior, albeit for only one panel.
Btw, you said earlier that Piccolo performed better than Goku as if this were a notable feat. How strong you think Tired Goku is?
Surely more than a tiny fraction of his regular power, considering Cell should not have used up an order of magnitude less energy than Goku and he was still stronger than all the non-Gokus to the point Trunks said they should team up to beat him in that state.
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RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: Cell Games Piccolo

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Sun Sep 09, 2018 5:57 pm

RandomGuy96 wrote: Yes, really. Look at Recoome's actual condition. Whether he says he was trying or not, the injuries he took would have been severe for just about any normal person.
What only supports my point of his shape being misleading, as all the damage Vegeta did was superficial:
Chapter: 275 (DBZ 81), P12.4
Context: Vegeta attacked Recoom all out, but it had little effect.
Gohan: “H-he hardly took any damage…”


Though i don't see this debate going far as you seem to think Vegeta vs Recoome was a quite even fight while i don't. Let's just agree to disagree by now.
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Re: Cell Games Piccolo

Post by p-hyvo » Tue Sep 11, 2018 5:25 am

personally, i keep cs super namekian piccolo ssj trunks tier, infact for me , big green is about 90%of ssj trunks

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