Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.
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Perfectionist-Cell
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by Perfectionist-Cell » Tue Sep 25, 2018 2:09 pm
RecolorSaiyan wrote:Goku and Vegeta had reached the point of diminishing gains especially when it came to base form. Just cause they trained for 7 years doesn't mean they became way stronger.
It took a burst of FP ssj2 goku for vegeta to say he was stronger than cell games gohan
Even piccolo said majin vegeta "might even be stronger than gohan from back then"
There's enough evidence to suggest a very small gap.
That also ties in with why ssg level of power was something goku couldn't even comprehend or reach on his own because he had slowed down so much. He could have trained for the remaining 4 decades of his life and not come close to even super vegito tier
Yet GT Goku surpassed Super Vegito in power by simply training with Uub in 5 years but is slightly stronger than Gohan in 7? The Gap between Vegito and Goku and Gohan and Goku is way bigger.
The statements don't match the training. Vegeta and Goku trained harder than they did in the Android saga yet got less gains ? That goes against all types of nature. As long as your training is strenuous you will keep on improving regardless if you reach some sort of cap and I thought Goku had no limits since that is what most dragon ball fans agree on.
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RecolorSaiyan
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by RecolorSaiyan » Tue Sep 25, 2018 2:12 pm
Perfectionist-Cell wrote:RecolorSaiyan wrote:Goku and Vegeta had reached the point of diminishing gains especially when it came to base form. Just cause they trained for 7 years doesn't mean they became way stronger.
It took a burst of FP ssj2 goku for vegeta to say he was stronger than cell games gohan
Even piccolo said majin vegeta "might even be stronger than gohan from back then"
There's enough evidence to suggest a very small gap.
That also ties in with why ssg level of power was something goku couldn't even comprehend or reach on his own because he had slowed down so much. He could have trained for the remaining 4 decades of his life and not come close to even super vegito tier
Yet GT Goku surpassed Super Vegito in power by simply training with Uub in 5 years but is slightly stronger than Gohan in 7? The Gap between Vegito and Goku and Gohan and Goku is way bigger.
The statements don't match the training. Vegeta and Goku trained harder than they did in the Android saga yet got less gains ? That goes against all types of nature. As long as your training is strenuous you will keep on improving regardless if you reach some sort of cap and I thought Goku had no limits since that is what most dragon ball fans agree on.
GT and super are NOT the original series. Toriyama depicted in the Buu saga that these guys had hit diminishing gains. Training hard =/= massive gains.
Piccolo trains a lot and didn't get massively more powerful from Cell arc to Boo Arc
Tien trains all the time and is the weakest human
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Perfectionist-Cell
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by Perfectionist-Cell » Tue Sep 25, 2018 3:42 pm
RecolorSaiyan wrote:Perfectionist-Cell wrote:RecolorSaiyan wrote:Goku and Vegeta had reached the point of diminishing gains especially when it came to base form. Just cause they trained for 7 years doesn't mean they became way stronger.
It took a burst of FP ssj2 goku for vegeta to say he was stronger than cell games gohan
Even piccolo said majin vegeta "might even be stronger than gohan from back then"
There's enough evidence to suggest a very small gap.
That also ties in with why ssg level of power was something goku couldn't even comprehend or reach on his own because he had slowed down so much. He could have trained for the remaining 4 decades of his life and not come close to even super vegito tier
Yet GT Goku surpassed Super Vegito in power by simply training with Uub in 5 years but is slightly stronger than Gohan in 7? The Gap between Vegito and Goku and Gohan and Goku is way bigger.
The statements don't match the training. Vegeta and Goku trained harder than they did in the Android saga yet got less gains ? That goes against all types of nature. As long as your training is strenuous you will keep on improving regardless if you reach some sort of cap and I thought Goku had no limits since that is what most dragon ball fans agree on.
GT and super are NOT the original series. Toriyama depicted in the Buu saga that these guys had hit diminishing gains. Training hard =/= massive gains.
Piccolo trains a lot and didn't get massively more powerful from Cell arc to Boo Arc
Tien trains all the time and is the weakest human
Over the course of many sagas Piccolo and Tien have become more and more useless overtime because of plot. Tien is the strongest human I will argue this but that's for another time. Tien puts in more work than Krillin and gets owned hard for literally no reason. Same with Piccolo dude puts in more work than Gohan but who gets more shine? People like Gohan and Krillin than they do Piccolo and Tien. Dragonball has no real logic sometimes and just does stupid things. If you train hard you will see results no matter who you are, this is a fact.
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Kaboom
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by Kaboom » Tue Sep 25, 2018 4:42 pm
Technically, the in-quotes direct answer from Toriyama only says he thinks Goku's the coolest. The part about him being "the always pure strongest in the universe," whatever that's supposed to mean, is an embellishment from the article's writer.
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Hugo Boss
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by Hugo Boss » Tue Sep 25, 2018 7:46 pm
Kaboom wrote:
Technically, the in-quotes direct answer from Toriyama only says he thinks Goku's the coolest. The part about him being "the always pure strongest in the universe," whatever that's supposed to mean, is an embellishment from the article's writer.
After you said, I just noted the quotation marks ends with “I think it’s Goku”. Thanks for pointing that out.
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PFM18
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by PFM18 » Tue Sep 25, 2018 10:04 pm
Perfectionist-Cell wrote:RecolorSaiyan wrote:Goku and Vegeta had reached the point of diminishing gains especially when it came to base form. Just cause they trained for 7 years doesn't mean they became way stronger.
It took a burst of FP ssj2 goku for vegeta to say he was stronger than cell games gohan
Even piccolo said majin vegeta "might even be stronger than gohan from back then"
There's enough evidence to suggest a very small gap.
That also ties in with why ssg level of power was something goku couldn't even comprehend or reach on his own because he had slowed down so much. He could have trained for the remaining 4 decades of his life and not come close to even super vegito tier
Yet GT Goku surpassed Super Vegito in power by simply training with Uub in 5 years but is slightly stronger than Gohan in 7? The Gap between Vegito and Goku and Gohan and Goku is way bigger.
The statements don't match the training. Vegeta and Goku trained harder than they did in the Android saga yet got less gains ? That goes against all types of nature. As long as your training is strenuous you will keep on improving regardless if you reach some sort of cap and I thought Goku had no limits since that is what most dragon ball fans agree on.
Well that's GT's problem. That is not something that refutes the obvious diminishing returns that exist in the original series because the sequel fucked up that clear trend that was established previously. It fits with what we see with Goku saying he could never reach SSG level on his own because his gains had begun to screech to a halt.
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Perfectionist-Cell
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by Perfectionist-Cell » Wed Sep 26, 2018 9:30 pm
PFM18 wrote:Perfectionist-Cell wrote:RecolorSaiyan wrote:Goku and Vegeta had reached the point of diminishing gains especially when it came to base form. Just cause they trained for 7 years doesn't mean they became way stronger.
It took a burst of FP ssj2 goku for vegeta to say he was stronger than cell games gohan
Even piccolo said majin vegeta "might even be stronger than gohan from back then"
There's enough evidence to suggest a very small gap.
That also ties in with why ssg level of power was something goku couldn't even comprehend or reach on his own because he had slowed down so much. He could have trained for the remaining 4 decades of his life and not come close to even super vegito tier
Yet GT Goku surpassed Super Vegito in power by simply training with Uub in 5 years but is slightly stronger than Gohan in 7? The Gap between Vegito and Goku and Gohan and Goku is way bigger.
The statements don't match the training. Vegeta and Goku trained harder than they did in the Android saga yet got less gains ? That goes against all types of nature. As long as your training is strenuous you will keep on improving regardless if you reach some sort of cap and I thought Goku had no limits since that is what most dragon ball fans agree on.
Well that's GT's problem. That is not something that refutes the obvious diminishing returns that exist in the original series because the sequel fucked up that clear trend that was established previously. It fits with what we see with Goku saying he could never reach SSG level on his own because his gains had begun to screech to a halt.
Goku is that same guy who said potara won't beat Beerus and ssg would actually have a chance at beating him yet we all know how that went. Everything Goku says isn't always accurate.
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PFM18
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by PFM18 » Fri Sep 28, 2018 1:17 am
Perfectionist-Cell wrote:PFM18 wrote:Perfectionist-Cell wrote:
Yet GT Goku surpassed Super Vegito in power by simply training with Uub in 5 years but is slightly stronger than Gohan in 7? The Gap between Vegito and Goku and Gohan and Goku is way bigger.
The statements don't match the training. Vegeta and Goku trained harder than they did in the Android saga yet got less gains ? That goes against all types of nature. As long as your training is strenuous you will keep on improving regardless if you reach some sort of cap and I thought Goku had no limits since that is what most dragon ball fans agree on.
Well that's GT's problem. That is not something that refutes the obvious diminishing returns that exist in the original series because the sequel fucked up that clear trend that was established previously. It fits with what we see with Goku saying he could never reach SSG level on his own because his gains had begun to screech to a halt.
Goku is that same guy who said potara won't beat Beerus and ssg would actually have a chance at beating him yet we all know how that went. Everything Goku says isn't always accurate.
Goku thought that potara wouldn't beat Beerus....and he was right
Goku thought SSG gave him the best chance and was confident given the level of suppression Beerus was at. Neither of these are examples of Goku being inaccurate
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zarmack
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by zarmack » Mon Oct 15, 2018 2:59 pm
There is no mention of diminishing returns from training in the original manga nor the Daizenshuu. Saiyans are supposed to have no limits so the concept of diminishing returns from training is stupid.
Either way, the Daizenshuu implied that both Goku and Vegeta had surpassed Gohan (who was much stronger than both of the them in the Buu arc and continued to train afterwards) by the end of Z.