Metamoran Fusion Formula

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Re: Metamoran Fusion Formula

Post by ekrolo2 » Sat Oct 13, 2018 4:15 pm

PFM18 wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:I usually go with a smaller one so as to avoid any ridiculous strength gaps between Goku, Gotenks, and Gohan. Usually something like (A+B)*5 which would make the fused being a nice ten times stronger than his individual parts.
That wouldn't work because 10x is simply too small. It would make Goten/Trunks similar in power to Goku/Vegeta if they were only 10x weaker than Gotenks. Obviously that isnt the case.
Aren't they? Gohan seems pretty convinced the boys will surpass him soon and from various SS2 statements we know neither Goku or Vegeta are much stronger than Gohan was in the Cell Games.
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Re: Metamoran Fusion Formula

Post by PFM18 » Sat Oct 13, 2018 4:45 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:I usually go with a smaller one so as to avoid any ridiculous strength gaps between Goku, Gotenks, and Gohan. Usually something like (A+B)*5 which would make the fused being a nice ten times stronger than his individual parts.
That wouldn't work because 10x is simply too small. It would make Goten/Trunks similar in power to Goku/Vegeta if they were only 10x weaker than Gotenks. Obviously that isnt the case.
Aren't they? Gohan seems pretty convinced the boys will surpass him soon and from various SS2 statements we know neither Goku or Vegeta are much stronger than Gohan was in the Cell Games.
Well we know that SSJ Vegetto>>>Buuhan>Buutenks>Super Buu~SSJ3 Gotenks

So for the gap between SSJ Vegetto and SSJ3 Gotenks to be that large, when Gotenks is in a form of SSJ 2 levels higher than would yield an 8x boost, it should be obvious that Goku/Vegeta are MUCH stronger than Goten/Trunks. The gap should be substantial between them.

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Re: Metamoran Fusion Formula

Post by ekrolo2 » Sat Oct 13, 2018 4:53 pm

PFM18 wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
That wouldn't work because 10x is simply too small. It would make Goten/Trunks similar in power to Goku/Vegeta if they were only 10x weaker than Gotenks. Obviously that isnt the case.
Aren't they? Gohan seems pretty convinced the boys will surpass him soon and from various SS2 statements we know neither Goku or Vegeta are much stronger than Gohan was in the Cell Games.
Well we know that SSJ Vegetto>>>Buuhan>Buutenks>Super Buu~SSJ3 Gotenks

So for the gap between SSJ Vegetto and SSJ3 Gotenks to be that large, when Gotenks is in a form of SSJ 2 levels higher than would yield an 8x boost, it should be obvious that Goku/Vegeta are MUCH stronger than Goten/Trunks. The gap should be substantial between them.
Or Vegetto is just a stronger fusion yielding a much bigger multiplier :P

From the Daizenshuu we know his base is over 400 times stronger than Goku or Vegeta's and from GT statements, we've got a rough idea for how big of an increase the fusion dance gives you by comparing Gogeta to Goku. They say Gogeta is "tens of times" stronger than Goku which is already substantially less than Vegetto's even if you high balled the dance and low balled the potara.
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Re: Metamoran Fusion Formula

Post by Doctor. » Sat Oct 13, 2018 4:55 pm

PFM18 wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
That wouldn't work because 10x is simply too small. It would make Goten/Trunks similar in power to Goku/Vegeta if they were only 10x weaker than Gotenks. Obviously that isnt the case.
Aren't they? Gohan seems pretty convinced the boys will surpass him soon and from various SS2 statements we know neither Goku or Vegeta are much stronger than Gohan was in the Cell Games.
Well we know that SSJ Vegetto>>>Buuhan>Buutenks>Super Buu~SSJ3 Gotenks

So for the gap between SSJ Vegetto and SSJ3 Gotenks to be that large, when Gotenks is in a form of SSJ 2 levels higher than would yield an 8x boost, it should be obvious that Goku/Vegeta are MUCH stronger than Goten/Trunks. The gap should be substantial between them.
Potara is confirmed stronger than the fusion dance (and even if it wasn't, Goku and Vegeta get a super special snowflake "rival boost") and the kids were portrayed as close to their elders. I don't see an issue here.

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Re: Metamoran Fusion Formula

Post by ekrolo2 » Sat Oct 13, 2018 4:57 pm

Doctor. wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote: Aren't they? Gohan seems pretty convinced the boys will surpass him soon and from various SS2 statements we know neither Goku or Vegeta are much stronger than Gohan was in the Cell Games.
Well we know that SSJ Vegetto>>>Buuhan>Buutenks>Super Buu~SSJ3 Gotenks

So for the gap between SSJ Vegetto and SSJ3 Gotenks to be that large, when Gotenks is in a form of SSJ 2 levels higher than would yield an 8x boost, it should be obvious that Goku/Vegeta are MUCH stronger than Goten/Trunks. The gap should be substantial between them.
Potara is confirmed stronger than the fusion dance (and even if it wasn't, Goku and Vegeta get a super special snowflake "rival boost") and the kids were portrayed as close to their elders. I don't see an issue here.
Ehh, the rival boost is overrated, the reason Goku & Vegeta are so compatible is that they're equals in power and very similar in all other regards too. The rival boost is just an added icing on the cake.
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Re: Metamoran Fusion Formula

Post by Doctor. » Sat Oct 13, 2018 5:02 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:Ehh, the rival boost is overrated, the reason Goku & Vegeta are so compatible is that they're equals in power and very similar in all other regards too. The rival boost is just an added icing on the cake.
I'd say it doesn't matter, the power boost is arbitrary anyway. I'm just saying it's yet another reason as to why there's such a big power discrepancy between Vegetto and Gotenks: Goku/Vegeta are already slightly stronger than the kids, they're using a stronger fusion method and they get a special boost on top of it.

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Re: Metamoran Fusion Formula

Post by Dagon » Sun Oct 14, 2018 11:53 am

Grand Marshal 1 wrote:This comes from the source which states that Vegito's Super Saiyan multiplier is equal to 2.5 times of his base form.
You didn't actually state what source that is. I would like a citation for that evidence, sir.

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Re: Metamoran Fusion Formula

Post by Kaboom » Sun Oct 14, 2018 12:38 pm

This is already evolved a bit as its own thread, but in the future, please use the dedicated fan-made power levels thread for discussions like this. "Formulas" for stuff like Fusion definitely count as part of that.

That said... I don't think there even is any one "formula" you can use to predict a Fusion's power just by plugging in the power levels of the two individuals. We've certainly never been given such a formula, or anything more than some guidebooks making note of specific Fusions ending up "several times" or "many tens of times" stronger than the parts. It seems to me like it has a lot more to do with the individuals' specific qualities and compatibility.
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Re: Metamoran Fusion Formula

Post by PFM18 » Sun Oct 14, 2018 5:48 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote: Aren't they? Gohan seems pretty convinced the boys will surpass him soon and from various SS2 statements we know neither Goku or Vegeta are much stronger than Gohan was in the Cell Games.
Well we know that SSJ Vegetto>>>Buuhan>Buutenks>Super Buu~SSJ3 Gotenks

So for the gap between SSJ Vegetto and SSJ3 Gotenks to be that large, when Gotenks is in a form of SSJ 2 levels higher than would yield an 8x boost, it should be obvious that Goku/Vegeta are MUCH stronger than Goten/Trunks. The gap should be substantial between them.
Or Vegetto is just a stronger fusion yielding a much bigger multiplier :P

From the Daizenshuu we know his base is over 400 times stronger than Goku or Vegeta's and from GT statements, we've got a rough idea for how big of an increase the fusion dance gives you by comparing Gogeta to Goku. They say Gogeta is "tens of times" stronger than Goku which is already substantially less than Vegetto's even if you high balled the dance and low balled the potara.
Oh right I forgot about that. Potara>>>Metamoran is a thing.

We still are given little indication that the kids are that close to their fathers. Especially since SSJ Goten/Trunks had trouble with 18 in the Mighty Mask suit. Had that been either of their fathers, their SSJ forms would have one shot 18 without a problem.

Of course, making sense of the Buu arc is always hard given the train wreck scaling that it employs. It's inconsistency is only outdone by filler and GT.
Doctor. wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:Ehh, the rival boost is overrated, the reason Goku & Vegeta are so compatible is that they're equals in power and very similar in all other regards too. The rival boost is just an added icing on the cake.
I'd say it doesn't matter, the power boost is arbitrary anyway. I'm just saying it's yet another reason as to why there's such a big power discrepancy between Vegetto and Gotenks: Goku/Vegeta are already slightly stronger than the kids, they're using a stronger fusion method and they get a special boost on top of it.
I'm pretty sure the rival boost is a myth perpetuated by faulty sources and mistranslations. @shadowfox87 went into detail about it before but I'm not sure exactly on the specifics.

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Re: Metamoran Fusion Formula

Post by Doctor. » Sun Oct 14, 2018 6:19 pm

PFM18 wrote:Especially since SSJ Goten/Trunks had trouble with 18 in the Mighty Mask suit. Had that been either of their fathers, their SSJ forms would have one shot 18 without a problem.
They didn't have problems. One Ki attack from a suppressed SS Trunks (stated in the scene) almost killed her. #18 just exposed their costume.
And from the more accurate strength checker:

Chapter: 453 (DBZ 259), P8.4, P9.1-7
Context: as Trunks and Goten fight No.18 in their Mighty Mask costume
Trunks: “Da-dammit! We can’t win like this!”
Goten: “Let’s turn into Super Saiyans, Trunks!”
Trunks: “That's it! We’ve got this thing on, so she won’t be able to tell who we are…Alright! Shall we turn into [Super Saiyans]?”
Goten: “Yeah!”
No.18: “…He really is a weird bastard…His arms and legs are extremely small for his body…And he’s so unusually strong…”
*they become Super Saiyans*
No.18: “!!”
Trunks: “Either way, we’re at a disadvantage in this getup, so we’ve got no choice but to settle this with a kiai cannon!”
Goten: “Eh! But will she be alright?...”
Trunks: “Don’t worry, she won’t die if we do it appropriately. She’s No.18…”

Chapter: 453 (DBZ 259), P10.1-2
Context: as Trunks prepares to fire a ki blast at No.18
No.18: “…I see…Super Saiyan, huh?...I finally know your identity, boys…”
Goten: “Don’t do it at full force!”
Trunks: “I know, I know!”

Chapter: 453 (DBZ 259), P12.4, P13.1
Context: after Trunks’ ki blast explodes
No.18: “Yo-you’ve got to be kidding…That energy bullet had absolutely incredible speed and destructive power…Co-could it be that those squirts have outrageous power?…This is dangerous! I’ve got to settle this fight soon!”

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Re: Metamoran Fusion Formula

Post by ekrolo2 » Sun Oct 14, 2018 6:29 pm

The boys should at bare minimum be as strong as Grade 2 Vegeta when he beat up Semi-Perfect Cell in SS but are likely higher. We also know from the Yo Son Goku manga they can one shot guys stronger than first form Freeza from Namek in Base.
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Re: Metamoran Fusion Formula

Post by PFM18 » Sun Oct 14, 2018 9:01 pm

Doctor. wrote:
PFM18 wrote:Especially since SSJ Goten/Trunks had trouble with 18 in the Mighty Mask suit. Had that been either of their fathers, their SSJ forms would have one shot 18 without a problem.
They didn't have problems. One Ki attack from a suppressed SS Trunks (stated in the scene) almost killed her. #18 just exposed their costume.
And from the more accurate strength checker:

Chapter: 453 (DBZ 259), P8.4, P9.1-7
Context: as Trunks and Goten fight No.18 in their Mighty Mask costume
Trunks: “Da-dammit! We can’t win like this!”
Goten: “Let’s turn into Super Saiyans, Trunks!”
Trunks: “That's it! We’ve got this thing on, so she won’t be able to tell who we are…Alright! Shall we turn into [Super Saiyans]?”
Goten: “Yeah!”
No.18: “…He really is a weird bastard…His arms and legs are extremely small for his body…And he’s so unusually strong…”
*they become Super Saiyans*
No.18: “!!”
Trunks: “Either way, we’re at a disadvantage in this getup, so we’ve got no choice but to settle this with a kiai cannon!”
Goten: “Eh! But will she be alright?...”
Trunks: “Don’t worry, she won’t die if we do it appropriately. She’s No.18…”

Chapter: 453 (DBZ 259), P10.1-2
Context: as Trunks prepares to fire a ki blast at No.18
No.18: “…I see…Super Saiyan, huh?...I finally know your identity, boys…”
Goten: “Don’t do it at full force!”
Trunks: “I know, I know!”

Chapter: 453 (DBZ 259), P12.4, P13.1
Context: after Trunks’ ki blast explodes
No.18: “Yo-you’ve got to be kidding…That energy bullet had absolutely incredible speed and destructive power…Co-could it be that those squirts have outrageous power?…This is dangerous! I’ve got to settle this fight soon!”
The fact that they didn't feel comfortable with their chances without using ki blasts speaks volumes. Had that been Goku or Vegeta they would have one punched her as SSJs even heavily suppressed. Having any trouble whatsoever, no matter how small, indicates significant inferiority compared to their parents. And she is mostly surprised that the kids are that strong rather than necessarily admitting inferiority. Sure, they are probablly stronger than 18 but 18 is NOTHING to their parents at this point.

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Re: Metamoran Fusion Formula

Post by Dagon » Sun Oct 14, 2018 11:43 pm

PFM18 wrote: I'm pretty sure the rival boost is a myth perpetuated by faulty sources and mistranslations. @shadowfox87 went into detail about it before but I'm not sure exactly on the specifics.
Here I will prove that Rival Boost is real.

El Manga Legendario page about Vegetto
Translation:
"In Dragon Ball the rivals are getting stronger, but as far as combat strength is concerned, none is as strong as Super Vegetto. The fusion with Potara earrings not only increases combat strength, but also enhances other abilities. That is why he allows himself the luxury of treating Buu after absorbing Gohan as if he were a child. Goku and Vegeta have a very high combat strength, but they are also very aware that they are rivals. Especially Vegeta, the one who was once the prince of the Saiyans. That rivalry between the two served to further increase Vegetto's strength. If Goku and Gohan had merged, they probably would not have reached such a level."

So yes, Rival Boost is real.
PFM18 wrote:
Doctor. wrote:
PFM18 wrote:Especially since SSJ Goten/Trunks had trouble with 18 in the Mighty Mask suit. Had that been either of their fathers, their SSJ forms would have one shot 18 without a problem.
PFM18 wrote: The fact that they didn't feel comfortable with their chances without using ki blasts speaks volumes. Had that been Goku or Vegeta they would have one punched her as SSJs even heavily suppressed. Having any trouble whatsoever, no matter how small, indicates significant inferiority compared to their parents. And she is mostly surprised that the kids are that strong rather than necessarily admitting inferiority. Sure, they are probablly stronger than 18 but 18 is NOTHING to their parents at this point.
Thankfully the Daizenshuu provides a great nugget of information about Trunks' strength against 18:

Trunks
"He has surprising power for a child, including being able to transform into a Super Saiyan without even training, and managing to hit his father Vegeta once." -Daizenshuu 2, p.120-121

"At the Youth Division of the 25th Tenkaichi Budoukai, he defeated Goten and won the championship. He and Goten then participated in the Adult Division as Mighty Mask, demonstrating strength on par with No. 18's, until she managed to see through their disguise." -Daizenshuu 4, p.123-124

Strength on par with 18, until she saw through their disguise. Tell me, when did she see through their disguise? When they turned SSJ. In other words:

"Trunks and Goten then participated in the Adult Division as Mighty Mask, demonstrating strength on par with No. 18's, until she managed to see through their disguise saw them become Super Saiyans."
"Trunks and Goten demonstrated strength on par with No. 18's, until she managed to see through their disguise they became Super Saiyans."
"Trunks and Goten demonstrated strength on par with No. 18's until they became Super Saiyans.
"Trunks and Goten demonstrated strength on par with No. 18's until they became Super Saiyans in their normal state."

Trunks and Goten in base form are on par with Android 18, confirmed.
Last edited by Dagon on Sun Oct 14, 2018 11:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Metamoran Fusion Formula

Post by PFM18 » Sun Oct 14, 2018 11:45 pm

Dagon wrote:
PFM18 wrote: I'm pretty sure the rival boost is a myth perpetuated by faulty sources and mistranslations. @shadowfox87 went into detail about it before but I'm not sure exactly on the specifics.
Here I will prove that Rival Boost is real.

El Manga Legendario page about Vegetto
Translation:
"In Dragon Ball the rivals are getting stronger, but as far as combat strength is concerned, none is as strong as Super Vegetto. The fusion with Potara earrings not only increases combat strength, but also enhances other abilities. That is why he allows himself the luxury of treating Buu after absorbing Gohan as if he were a child. Goku and Vegeta have a very high combat strength, but they are also very aware that they are rivals. Especially Vegeta, the one who was once the prince of the Saiyans. That rivalry between the two served to further increase Vegetto's strength. If Goku and Gohan had merged, they probably would not have reached such a level."

So yes, Rival Boost is real.
Yeah I don't consider the Legendario a legitimate source so this doesn't really move the needle for me

quoting a friend discussing the matter:
"Rival boost" is a made-up thing by fans. It actually was a mistranslation and misinterpretation of what the Elder Kaioshin stated. A separate interview from Toriyama about fusion clarified that only size and power are factors that determine the output of a fusion. The actual Viz translation for that chapter showed that Elder Kaioshin stated that Goku and Vegeta live to outdo each other and this helps them sustain similar battle powers. It's not that the fact they are "rivals" that automatically makes them stronger. Rivalry helps them close the power gap. That's all. You don't have to be rivals to get a magical boost.

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Re: Metamoran Fusion Formula

Post by Dagon » Sun Oct 14, 2018 11:58 pm

PFM18 wrote:
Dagon wrote:
PFM18 wrote: Yeah I don't consider the Legendario a legitimate source so this doesn't really move the needle for me
You should see it for yourself. They actually have a ton of interviews from Toriyama in exceptional detail about the process of how he wrote Dragon Ball, and there are 50 volumes. It's very expansive material. I can PM you a link of where to read it.
Disregarding official material to suit your own opinion is not at all intellectual honesty. If you intentionally omit objective information that contradicts your opinion, I cannot consider that kind of opinion valid.

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Re: Metamoran Fusion Formula

Post by PFM18 » Mon Oct 15, 2018 12:01 am

Dagon wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
Dagon wrote:
You should see it for yourself. They actually have a ton of interviews from Toriyama in exceptional detail about the process of how he wrote Dragon Ball, and there are 50 volumes. It's very expansive material. I can PM you a link of where to read it.
Disregarding official material to suit your own opinion is not at all intellectual honesty. If you intentionally omit objective information that contradicts your opinion, I cannot consider that kind of opinion valid.
This isn't the Daizenshuu or SEG, etc etc. This is "El Manga Legendario." Seth the Programmer is the only nut that really references that garbage source. This isn't about omitting anything that coincides with my opinion. You have crap like saying Grade 3 = 10x Grade 2 and that Grade 4 is stronger than Grade 4.

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Re: Metamoran Fusion Formula

Post by Dagon » Mon Oct 15, 2018 12:07 am

PFM18 wrote:
Dagon wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
This isn't the Daizenshuu or SEG, etc etc. This is "El Manga Legendario." Seth the Programmer is the only nut that really references that garbage source. This isn't about omitting anything that coincides with my opinion. You have crap like saying Grade 3 = 10x Grade 2 and that Grade 4 is stronger than Grade 4.
You don't need to be a Seth fanboy to accept that guide. I think you are having an emotional reaction. You should at least look at it and do some google translate by image from you phone, if you can't read spanish. They actually have a whole lot of interviews with Toriyama. They asked the author about a lot of things. So are you going to disregard the author's word now? Just because Seth has a vitriolic attitude? That guide came out in 2007, Seth wasn't even on Youtube in 2007. Take your emotions out of the equation and give it a chance.

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Re: Metamoran Fusion Formula

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Fri Oct 26, 2018 6:33 am

Kaboom wrote:This is already evolved a bit as its own thread, but in the future, please use the dedicated fan-made power levels thread for discussions like this. "Formulas" for stuff like Fusion definitely count as part of that.

That said... I don't think there even is any one "formula" you can use to predict a Fusion's power just by plugging in the power levels of the two individuals. We've certainly never been given such a formula, or anything more than some guidebooks making note of specific Fusions ending up "several times" or "many tens of times" stronger than the parts. It seems to me like it has a lot more to do with the individuals' specific qualities and compatibility.
Agreed. Well, just for the sake of fun!
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Re: Metamoran Fusion Formula

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Fri Oct 26, 2018 6:41 am

Dagon wrote:
Grand Marshal 1 wrote:This comes from the source which states that Vegito's Super Saiyan multiplier is equal to 2.5 times of his base form.
You didn't actually state what source that is. I would like a citation for that evidence, sir.
Technically it is not an official source, rather I have calculated that on my own. Please check the link of my second post on Potara Fusion to understand my reasoning!
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Re: Metamoran Fusion Formula

Post by Dagon » Sun Oct 28, 2018 3:21 am

Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Dagon wrote:
Grand Marshal 1 wrote:This comes from the source which states that Vegito's Super Saiyan multiplier is equal to 2.5 times of his base form.
You didn't actually state what source that is. I would like a citation for that evidence, sir.
Technically it is not an official source, rather I have calculated that on my own. Please check the link of my second post on Potara Fusion to understand my reasoning!
Oh Jesus Christ, that video game has mecha freeza at 14 million, and Super Saiyan Goku androids saga at 20 million. Obviously the game designers simply didn't want to bloat the power scale and used nerfed multipliers. You can't take it as fact. Also it does not say the FUSION SSJ multiplier is 2.5x, but 2.5x for ALL SAIYANS. You can't call that valid. The multipliers in that game are entirely for gameplay purposes only, nothing more.

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