Goku: Xeno power and feats?

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Re: Goku: Xeno power and feats?

Post by Rakurai » Sat Sep 29, 2018 10:25 am

CTAkuma wrote: 1:Guess what Demigra was fought in both and has his Makyou form
2:Again argument from emotion, just because you don't think it feels right doesn't mean it doesn't hold true to the scaling in the series, 17 is way stronger than BoG Goku who's punches threatened to destroy the universe and afterlife, again this doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out.
3:I confused it with Gravy who is also stated to be stronger than Demigra who was oneshotted by Goku, so i guess that's my bad.
1. Grimlock just said that Xeno Goku never fought Demigra in any of the GDM missions. He provided the link to prove me wrong too. So provide your link to show that Xeno Goku fought Demigra in-game.

2. Merged Zamasu & Bluegito's punches never threatened the universe even though they were going all out. Destructive feats mean nothing when scaling characters relative to each other, and notions like "17 must be a universe buster" certainly doesn't any hold weight to the narrative of the main series.

Gotenks and Super Buu could already rip apart dimensions literally just by screaming, the very fabric of space-time itself, a feat that arguably puts destroying matter like the universe to shame, yet Vegeta and Black were so surprised at Black opening up a dimensional rift, the very same feat that Gotenks/Buu did. So Gotenks and Super Buu are universe+++ by your logic. This is why destructive feat logic is fallacious, misleading, and wrong for scaling characters.

3. So where is the link that shows Gravy being one-shotted by Goku? EDIT: And I don't want any game openings because those do not reflect actual in-game story content.
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Re: Goku: Xeno power and feats?

Post by CTAkuma » Sat Sep 29, 2018 10:32 am

Rakurai wrote: 1. Grimlock just said that Xeno Goku never fought Demigra in any of the GDM missions. He provided the link to prove me wrong too. So provide your link to show that Xeno Goku fought Demigra in-game.

2. Merged Zamasu & Bluegito's punches never threatened the universe even though they were going all out. Destructive feats mean nothing when scaling characters relative to each other, and notions like "17 must be a universe buster" certainly doesn't any hold weight to the narrative of the main series.

Gotenks and Super Buu could already rip apart dimensions literally just by screaming, the very fabric of space-time itself, a feat that arguably puts destroying matter like the universe to shame, yet Vegeta and Black were so surprised at Black opening up a dimensional rift, the very same feat that Gotenks/Buu did. So Gotenks and Super Buu are universe+++ by your logic. This is why destructive feat logic is fallacious, misleading, and wrong for scaling characters.

3. So where is the link that shows Gravy being one-shotted by Goku?
1: It's the same Goku who fought Demigra, there are no multiple Xeno timelines with different Time breaker Xeno Goku's
2:17 being able to compete and challenge SSBlue Goku is enough evidence that he is in that realm of power.
3:Don't have the image but it was with a headbutt in SS3 from Xeno Goku in the Cell-X saga

Ripping apart dimensions isn't impressive at all as to completely destroying one, that's like saying i'm building level for smashing a hole into a house

EDIT: It's all the same Goku by the way, there aren't multiple Xeno Goku's Time breakers and intros are there to tell the story, if you don't accept them then that's your problem but don't go around sperging at everyone who uses them

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Re: Goku: Xeno power and feats?

Post by Rakurai » Sat Sep 29, 2018 10:52 am

CTAkuma wrote: 1: It's the same Goku who fought Demigra, there are no multiple Xeno timelines with different Time breaker Xeno Goku's
2:17 being able to compete and challenge SSBlue Goku is enough evidence that he is in that realm of power.
3:Don't have the image but it was with a headbutt in SS3 from Xeno Goku in the Cell-X saga

Ripping apart dimensions isn't impressive at all as to completely destroying one, that's like saying i'm building level for smashing a hole into a house
1. That's false. I just had a discussion earlier with one of the members who has been following the game for a long time. UMX Xeno Goku =/= SDBH Xeno Goku by the fact alone that Goku didn't know who Chamel was in SDBH, yet he fought Chamel in UMX. Not that the creators actually care about continuity, but for all intents and purposes SDBH Xeno Goku is written differently from UMX Xeno Goku. Also Xeno Goku is not a Time Breaker, which is someone that fights against the proper timeline.

2. A realm of power that doesn't necessarily require universe-busting implications.

3. That's from the SDBH Dark Demon realm 2nd trailer. Which again is not reflective of the actual in-game arcade Xeno Goku. And by the way, there is no implication in the game that Gravy was ever stronger than Demigra.

No, the implications is that they would obliterate all matter on the universe, not destroy its entire space-time. GoDs aren't on the level of Zeno in that regard.
Last edited by Rakurai on Sat Sep 29, 2018 10:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Goku: Xeno power and feats?

Post by Rakurai » Sat Sep 29, 2018 10:55 am

CTAkuma wrote: EDIT: It's all the same Goku by the way, there aren't multiple Xeno Goku's Time breakers and intros are there to tell the story, if you don't accept them then that's your problem but don't go around sperging at everyone who uses them
Intros are there for marketing. They do not reflect actual in-game story events or sequences.

You haven't reconciliated the discrepancies between UMX and SDBH Xeno Goku. The consensus in the SDBH thread is that they're two separate continuities.
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Re: Goku: Xeno power and feats?

Post by CTAkuma » Sat Sep 29, 2018 11:00 am

Rakurai wrote:
1. That's false. I just had a discussion earlier with one of the members who has been following the game for a long time. UMX Xeno Goku =/= SDBH Xeno Goku by the fact alone that Goku didn't know who Chamel was in SDBH, yet he fought Chamel in UMX. Not that the creators actually care about continuity, but for all intents and purposes SDBH Xeno Goku is written differently from UMX Xeno Goku. Also it's Xeno Goku is not a Time Breaker.

2. A realm of power that doesn't necessarily require universe-busting implications.

3. That's from the SDBH Dark Demon realm 2nd trailer. Which again is not reflective of the actual in-game arcade Xeno Goku. And by the way, there is no implication in the game that Gravy was ever stronger than Demigra.

No, the implications is that they would obliterate all matter on the universe, not destroy its entire space-time. GoDs aren't on the level of Zeno in that regard.
1:Not false since even if there were different timelines with different Xeno Goku's, there would have to be different Chronoas too by that logic which means there are multiple Demigras who want to destroy multiple timelines
2:Yes it does, scaling works that way. Cell was stated to be able to blow up a Solar system in one kamehameha, that means people who are equal or stronger than him should logically be able to do the same thing
3:It's stated that he was superior in power to demigra
Intros are there for marketing. They do not reflect actual in-game story events or sequences.

You haven't reconciliated the discrepancies between UMX and SDBH Xeno Goku. The consensus in the SDBH thread is that they're two separate continuities
Even if that were true, that would still mean he would have to have fought the demon empire or demons who some of them are superior to Demigra, so the scaling stays the same

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Re: Goku: Xeno power and feats?

Post by Rakurai » Sat Sep 29, 2018 11:39 am

CTAkuma wrote:
Rakurai wrote:
1. That's false. I just had a discussion earlier with one of the members who has been following the game for a long time. UMX Xeno Goku =/= SDBH Xeno Goku by the fact alone that Goku didn't know who Chamel was in SDBH, yet he fought Chamel in UMX. Not that the creators actually care about continuity, but for all intents and purposes SDBH Xeno Goku is written differently from UMX Xeno Goku. Also it's Xeno Goku is not a Time Breaker.

2. A realm of power that doesn't necessarily require universe-busting implications.

3. That's from the SDBH Dark Demon realm 2nd trailer. Which again is not reflective of the actual in-game arcade Xeno Goku. And by the way, there is no implication in the game that Gravy was ever stronger than Demigra.

No, the implications is that they would obliterate all matter on the universe, not destroy its entire space-time. GoDs aren't on the level of Zeno in that regard.
1:Not false since even if there were different timelines with different Xeno Goku's, there would have to be different Chronoas too by that logic which means there are multiple Demigras who want to destroy multiple timelines
2:Yes it does, scaling works that way. Cell was stated to be able to blow up a Solar system in one kamehameha, that means people who are equal or stronger than him should logically be able to do the same thing
3:It's stated that he was superior in power to demigra

Even if that were true, that would still mean he would have to have fought the demon empire or demons who some of them are superior to Demigra, so the scaling stays the same
1. They are separate stories. UMX, SDBH, and Xenoverse are not weaved into this grand tale of timeline shenanigans that is supposed to all come together. DB video games are not always meant to be unified. Even the SDBH manga & promotional anime are different from the arcade itself. This is not hard to understand and should tell you why multiple incarnations of the same character can and do exist.

2. I am tired of this silly debate which is off-topic. Even in your example, Gohan did not blow up the solar system even though he clashed against a Kamehameha that is supposed to take one out. So again, destructive feats/claims =/= scaling.

3. Gravy was Demigra's comrade, not superior. You have no proof that Demon God Gravy > Demon God Demigra much less Gravy > Demigra, so I suggest you drop it before you embarrass yourself even further.

So let's see the discrepancies.

In the trailers, he headbutts Gravy as a SSJ3.

In the actual game, Xeno Goku is not present during the events & quests of SDBH Mission 2.

In the manga by Nagayama, Xeno Goku is not present either, it's Vegeta and F. Trunks (later Vegenks) vs. Gravy and Cell. Meanwhile, Xeno Goku is fighting off Dark Dragon Ball Buu.

Your original claim is that Xeno Goku could one-shot Demigra, or Gravy as you had corrected, which comes from the trailer "canon" if you will. Not the arcade. You're just all over the place. So no, the trailers don't reflect actual in-game stories or feats of power.
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Re: Goku: Xeno power and feats?

Post by CTAkuma » Sat Sep 29, 2018 11:51 am

Rakurai wrote: 1. They are separate stories. UMX, SDBH, and Xenoverse are not weaved into this grand tale of timeline shenanigans that is supposed to all come together. DB video games are not always meant to be unified. Even the SDBH manga & promotional anime are different from the arcade itself. This is not hard to understand and should tell you why multiple incarnations of the same character can and do exist.

2. I am tired of this silly debate which is off-topic. Even in your example, Gohan did not blow up the solar system even though he clashed against a Kamehameha that is supposed to take one out. So again, destructive feats/claims =/= scaling.

3. Gravy was Demigra's comrade, not superior. You have no proof that Demon God Gravy > Demon God Demigra much less Gravy > Demigra, so I suggest you drop it before you embarrass yourself even further.

So let's see the discrepancies.

In the trailers, he headbutts Gravy as a SSJ3.

In the actual game, Xeno Goku is not present during the events & quests of SDBH Mission 2.

In the manga by Nagayama, Xeno Goku is not present either, it's Vegeta and F. Trunks (later Vegenks) vs. Gravy and Cell. Meanwhile, Xeno Goku is fighting off Dark Dragon Ball Buu.

Your original claim is that Xeno Goku could one-shot Demigra, or Gravy as you had corrected, which comes from the trailer "canon" if you will. Not the arcade. You're just all over the place. So no, the trailers don't reflect actual in-game stories or feats of power.
1:They are not seperate stories, Goku fights Demigra and the Makaio in the game, intros and Xenoverse.
2:Goku Blue's kamehameha's should logically be stronger than Goku from BoG's punches, so why doesn't he instantly blow up the universe or the planet? Answer is Ki control, they can control their destructive capabilities so they don't harm the enviroment
3:You have no proof of Demigra or any other Makaio not existing or having clashed with Xeno Goku in other media, Gravy being stronger is through scaling as Goku needed SS3 to defeat him and just SS1 for Demigra

Yes they do, the intros reflect the stories thus are part of the feats and Goku could oneshot Demigra logically speaking, unless you show me some evidence that Xeno Goku apparently never fought Demigra or other Makaio in your supposed different timelines then there literally is no argument. Heroes storyline is across many different things, implying that Goku never fought Demigra is rather silly

Burden of proof lies on you to prove that apparently some Xeno Goku's never fought Demigra or Makaio

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Re: Goku: Xeno power and feats?

Post by Bullza » Sat Sep 29, 2018 12:02 pm

xking wrote:How much more powerful does the Dark Dragon Ball make you?
I'm not sure how clear that is because it seems to vary between characters. Turles with the Dark Dragon Ball was stronger than Kid Buu with the Dark Dragon Ball.
Is Final Form Mira impressive?
In Xenoverse 2 he was made out to be more powerful than Golden Frieza in the Resurrection F Saga even powered up with dark magic.

If Super Saiyan 4 Goku Xeno is almost as strong as Final Form Mira then he should be stronger than Super Saiyan Blue Goku at that point in the series. Considering that Super Saiyan Blue Goku is much more powerful currently then yeah as the anime and manga shows he's now about even with Goku Xeno. In the game itself Goku Xeno was meant to be a little weaker.

But overall he's probably in that Toppo and Merged Zamasu Halo range.

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Re: Goku: Xeno power and feats?

Post by Rakurai » Sat Sep 29, 2018 12:09 pm

CTAkuma wrote: It's a statement that Gravy was superior, don't have the image but it was confirmed he was superior in strength
And this is how you've proved all your arguments, you have these claims but don't back them up with anything except it was confirmed from some unknown source and then they turn out to be fallacious or outright wrong.

If this is how you're going to stake your claims, then they were worthless to begin with and I'm done with you.
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Re: Goku: Xeno power and feats?

Post by CTAkuma » Sat Sep 29, 2018 12:11 pm

Rakurai wrote:
CTAkuma wrote: It's a statement that Gravy was superior, don't have the image but it was confirmed he was superior in strength
And this is how you've proved all your arguments, you have these claims but don't back them up with anything except it was confirmed from some unknown source and then they turn out to be fallacious or outright wrong.

If this is how you're going to stake your claims, then they were worthless to begin with and I'm done with you.
You don't back up your claims either, Rakurai. Your entire argument was that there are apparently multiple Xeno Goku's and only one fought Demigra or the Makaio and that scaling doesn't exist which is logically false.

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Re: Goku: Xeno power and feats?

Post by Rakurai » Sat Sep 29, 2018 12:13 pm

CTAkuma wrote:
Rakurai wrote:
CTAkuma wrote: It's a statement that Gravy was superior, don't have the image but it was confirmed he was superior in strength
And this is how you've proved all your arguments, you have these claims but don't back them up with anything except it was confirmed from some unknown source and then they turn out to be fallacious or outright wrong.

If this is how you're going to stake your claims, then they were worthless to begin with and I'm done with you.
You don't back up your claims either, Rakurai. Your entire argument was that there are apparently multiple Xeno Goku's and only one fought Demigra or the Makaio and that scaling doesn't exist which is logically false.
I literally linked you the discussion that logically led to UMX and SDBH Goku being irreconcilable. Don't project onto me just because you can't refute the argument in front of you.
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Re: Goku: Xeno power and feats?

Post by CTAkuma » Sat Sep 29, 2018 12:15 pm

Rakurai wrote:
CTAkuma wrote:
Rakurai wrote:
And this is how you've proved all your arguments, you have these claims but don't back them up with anything except it was confirmed from some unknown source and then they turn out to be fallacious or outright wrong.

If this is how you're going to stake your claims, then they were worthless to begin with and I'm done with you.
You don't back up your claims either, Rakurai. Your entire argument was that there are apparently multiple Xeno Goku's and only one fought Demigra or the Makaio and that scaling doesn't exist which is logically false.
I literally linked you the discussion that logically led to UMX and SDBH Goku being irreconcilable. Don't project onto me just because you can't refute the argument in front of you.
That is not proof, Demigra and the Makaio still exist and have been fought. Heroes is throughout the arcade game, Xenoverse and the intros, all of whom have said Makaio and Demigra in them

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Re: Goku: Xeno power and feats?

Post by Rakurai » Sat Sep 29, 2018 12:20 pm

CTAkuma wrote: That is not proof, Demigra and the Makaio still exist and have been fought. Heroes is throughout the arcade game, Xenoverse and the intros, all of whom have said Makaio and Demigra in them
For the last time, the intros do not reflect the actual in-game series of events. If you choose the arcade continuity, then you must accept the fact that the trailers do not wholly represent how the arcade plays out. Otherwise you are just choosing the "trailer" continuity which frankly is meaningless.
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Re: Goku: Xeno power and feats?

Post by CTAkuma » Sat Sep 29, 2018 12:21 pm

Rakurai wrote:
CTAkuma wrote: That is not proof, Demigra and the Makaio still exist and have been fought. Heroes is throughout the arcade game, Xenoverse and the intros, all of whom have said Makaio and Demigra in them
For the last time, the intros do not reflect the actual in-game series of events. If you choose the arcade continuity, then you must accept the fact that the trailers do not wholly represent how the arcade plays out. Otherwise you are just choosing the "trailer" continuity which frankly is meaningless.
They do count since they represent plot points in the arcade game, they are not unrelated as you claim

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Re: Goku: Xeno power and feats?

Post by Rakurai » Sat Sep 29, 2018 12:32 pm

CTAkuma wrote:
Rakurai wrote:
CTAkuma wrote: That is not proof, Demigra and the Makaio still exist and have been fought. Heroes is throughout the arcade game, Xenoverse and the intros, all of whom have said Makaio and Demigra in them
For the last time, the intros do not reflect the actual in-game series of events. If you choose the arcade continuity, then you must accept the fact that the trailers do not wholly represent how the arcade plays out. Otherwise you are just choosing the "trailer" continuity which frankly is meaningless.
They do count since they represent plot points in the arcade game, they are not unrelated as you claim
They are marketing for the mission and cards. They do not reflect the actual in-game story events or feats of power.

For example, in the arcade UM3, SSB Vegito fought SSJ Cumber until he was taken away by Fuu, but the UM3 trailer depicts SSB Vegito fighting base Cumber and even resorting to KK, while still getting one-shotted out of KK. Cumber never transformed to SSJ in the trailer.
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Re: Goku: Xeno power and feats?

Post by CTAkuma » Sat Sep 29, 2018 12:34 pm

Rakurai wrote:
CTAkuma wrote:
Rakurai wrote:
For the last time, the intros do not reflect the actual in-game series of events. If you choose the arcade continuity, then you must accept the fact that the trailers do not wholly represent how the arcade plays out. Otherwise you are just choosing the "trailer" continuity which frankly is meaningless.
They do count since they represent plot points in the arcade game, they are not unrelated as you claim
They are marketing for the mission and cards. They do not reflect the actual in-game story events or feats of power.

For example, in the arcade UM3, SSB Vegito fought SSJ Cumber until he was taken away by Fuu, but the UM3 trailer depicts SSB Vegito fighting base Cumber and even resorting to KK, while still getting one-shotted out of KK. Cumber never transformed to SSJ in the trailer.
Yes problem being? Goku/Vegito still fought Cumber, plot is essentially the same since Cumber transforms in the end to Golden Oozaru anyways

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Re: Goku: Xeno power and feats?

Post by Rakurai » Sat Sep 29, 2018 12:39 pm

CTAkuma wrote:
Rakurai wrote:
CTAkuma wrote: They do count since they represent plot points in the arcade game, they are not unrelated as you claim
They are marketing for the mission and cards. They do not reflect the actual in-game story events or feats of power.

For example, in the arcade UM3, SSB Vegito fought SSJ Cumber until he was taken away by Fuu, but the UM3 trailer depicts SSB Vegito fighting base Cumber and even resorting to KK, while still getting one-shotted out of KK. Cumber never transformed to SSJ in the trailer.
Yes problem being? Goku/Vegito still fought Cumber, plot is essentially the same since Cumber transforms in the end to Golden Oozaru anyways
SSB Vegito fought SSJ Cumber and he was taken away by Fu, not SSB-KK Vegito fought base Cumber and they continued until Vegito defused and Cumber went Golden Ape. That is a flat-out contradiction of feats of power and series of events. Your problem being your claims about Goku one-shotting Gravy would still reflect an actual capable feat, but the fact of the matter is it doesn't exist in the game even though it's in the trailer, since trailers do not represent actual in-game events. And you still haven't provided the source for Gravy > Demigra, but I don't expect anything else more capable from you based on your poor arguments and gaps of DBH/SDBH knowledge.
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Re: Goku: Xeno power and feats?

Post by CTAkuma » Sat Sep 29, 2018 12:42 pm

Rakurai wrote:
CTAkuma wrote:
Rakurai wrote:
They are marketing for the mission and cards. They do not reflect the actual in-game story events or feats of power.

For example, in the arcade UM3, SSB Vegito fought SSJ Cumber until he was taken away by Fuu, but the UM3 trailer depicts SSB Vegito fighting base Cumber and even resorting to KK, while still getting one-shotted out of KK. Cumber never transformed to SSJ in the trailer.
Yes problem being? Goku/Vegito still fought Cumber, plot is essentially the same since Cumber transforms in the end to Golden Oozaru anyways
SSB Vegito fought SSJ Cumber, not SSB-KK Vegito fought base Cumber. That is a flat-out contradiction of feats of power. Your problem being your claims about Goku one-shotting Gravy would still reflect an actual capable feat, but the fact of the matter is it doesn't exist in the game even though it's in the trailer, since trailers do not represent actual in-game events. And you still haven't provided the source for Gravy > Demigra, but I don't expect anything else more capable from you based on your poor arguments and gaps of DBH/SDBH knowledge.
No because it doesn't affect the main point of "Goku is stronger than Demigra thus is on Multiversal scale", also inconsistencies aside Gravy is stronger while requiring SS3 to take him out and Demigra being taken out in SS, the intros almost always correlate one way or another to the game. You seem to not grasp that feats for Xeno Goku are also present in Xenoverse. Your entire argument against it was an argument from emotion, as if it doesn't feel right so it shouldn't be that way.

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Re: Goku: Xeno power and feats?

Post by ankokudaishogun » Sat Sep 29, 2018 12:45 pm

CTAkuma wrote:They do count since they represent plot points in the arcade game, they are not unrelated as you claim
They have no more value than any anime opening, more often than not filled with vents\fights not happening in the story

As for Goku:Xeno, for his power we know:
0. If he's from a GT-like timeline,then he should be AT LEAST as strong a Buu Saga SS3 in Base, as is Goku:GT.
1. he was forbidden to use SS4 inside Altered Times because the space-time was already weakened. Ankoku Makai is a different dimension and Prison Planet is inside normal time, so it is safe use it there.
2. the Three-Way Fight between Goku:Xeno, Final Form Mira(Towa Absorbed, but without Tokitoki unliek Xenoverse) and Broly Dark did end in Goku&Broly KO and Mira defused and escaping with Towa. Which suggests Towa was slightly stronger than the other two or defusing awakened him.
3. he just slightly weaker than post-ToP Goku Blue. Goku Blue didn't use Kaiohken.

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Re: Goku: Xeno power and feats?

Post by CTAkuma » Sat Sep 29, 2018 12:46 pm

ankokudaishogun wrote:
CTAkuma wrote:They do count since they represent plot points in the arcade game, they are not unrelated as you claim
They have no more value than any anime opening, more often than not filled with vents\fights not happening in the story

As for Goku:Xeno, for his power we know:
0. If he's from a GT-like timeline,then he should be AT LEAST as strong a Buu Saga SS3 in Base, as is Goku:GT.
1. he was forbidden to use SS4 inside Altered Times because the space-time was already weakened. Ankoku Makai is a different dimension and Prison Planet is inside normal time, so it is safe use it there.
2. the Three-Way Fight between Goku:Xeno, Final Form Mira(Towa Absorbed, but without Tokitoki unliek Xenoverse) and Broly Dark did end in Goku&Broly KO and Mira defused and escaping with Towa. Which suggests Towa was slightly stronger than the other two or defusing awakened him.
3. he just slightly weaker than post-ToP Goku Blue. Goku Blue didn't use Kaiohken.
You forgot to mention that Xeno Goku is not GT Goku and effortlessly defeated a Multiversal entity

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