Goku: Xeno power and feats?

[Rakurai]

No because it doesn't affect the main point of "Goku is stronger than Demigra thus is on Multiversal scale", also inconsistencies aside Gravy is stronger while requiring SS3 to take him out and Demigra being taken out in SS, the intros almost always correlate one way or another to the game. You seem to not grasp that feats for Xeno Goku are also present in Xenoverse. Your entire argument against it was an argument from emotion, as if it doesn't feel right so it shouldn't be that way.

And here's more proof of your ignorance. Xeno Goku doesn't have feats in Xenoverse because he's never appeared in it.

You have the nerve to claim my argument is from emotion, when the basis of my argument stems from the contradictions between the games, trailers, and even the manga/anime, without bringing in my "emotions." You are an outright liar.

Your argument on the other hand is filled with nothing but plot holes and contradictions, and based on what I can gather from this discussion you seem to know very little to nothing about Xeno Goku based on his canon appearances.

Now I'm really done with you because you obviously haven't followed or kept up with the SDBH stories. So it's pointless to try and convince someone who has this misconstrued perception of DBH/SDBH.

[CTAkuma]

No because it doesn't affect the main point of "Goku is stronger than Demigra thus is on Multiversal scale", also inconsistencies aside Gravy is stronger while requiring SS3 to take him out and Demigra being taken out in SS, the intros almost always correlate one way or another to the game. You seem to not grasp that feats for Xeno Goku are also present in Xenoverse. Your entire argument against it was an argument from emotion, as if it doesn't feel right so it shouldn't be that way.

And here's more proof of your ignorance. Xeno Goku doesn't have feats in Xenoverse because he's never appeared in it.

You have the nerve to claim my argument is from emotion, when the basis of my argument stems from the contradictions between the games, trailers, and even the manga/anime, without bringing in my "emotions." You are an outright liar.

Your argument on the other hand is filled with nothing but plot holes and contradictions, and based on what I can gather from this discussion you seem to know very little to nothing about Xeno Goku based on his canon appearances.

No need to act so hostile in every post you make, also yes your arguments mainly stem from emotion as if what feels "right", like Xeno Goku being a Multiverse buster. Xeno Goku takes from everything btw, Heroes, Xenoverse, Dragonball Online etc.

[Rakurai]

They do count since they represent plot points in the arcade game, they are not unrelated as you claim

They have no more value than any anime opening, more often than not filled with vents\fights not happening in the story

As for Goku:Xeno, for his power we know:
0. If he's from a GT-like timeline,then he should be AT LEAST as strong a Buu Saga SS3 in Base, as is Goku:GT.
1. he was forbidden to use SS4 inside Altered Times because the space-time was already weakened. Ankoku Makai is a different dimension and Prison Planet is inside normal time, so it is safe use it there.
2. the Three-Way Fight between Goku:Xeno, Final Form Mira(Towa Absorbed, but without Tokitoki unliek Xenoverse) and Broly Dark did end in Goku&Broly KO and Mira defused and escaping with Towa. Which suggests Towa was slightly stronger than the other two or defusing awakened him.
3. he just slightly weaker than post-ToP Goku Blue. Goku Blue didn't use Kaiohken.

Don't even try. This bloke is so convinced Xeno Goku could one-shot Demon God Demigra and that his "feats" from Xenoverse also apply to him.

[CTAkuma]

They do count since they represent plot points in the arcade game, they are not unrelated as you claim

They have no more value than any anime opening, more often than not filled with vents\fights not happening in the story

As for Goku:Xeno, for his power we know:
0. If he's from a GT-like timeline,then he should be AT LEAST as strong a Buu Saga SS3 in Base, as is Goku:GT.
1. he was forbidden to use SS4 inside Altered Times because the space-time was already weakened. Ankoku Makai is a different dimension and Prison Planet is inside normal time, so it is safe use it there.
2. the Three-Way Fight between Goku:Xeno, Final Form Mira(Towa Absorbed, but without Tokitoki unliek Xenoverse) and Broly Dark did end in Goku&Broly KO and Mira defused and escaping with Towa. Which suggests Towa was slightly stronger than the other two or defusing awakened him.
3. he just slightly weaker than post-ToP Goku Blue. Goku Blue didn't use Kaiohken.

Don't even try. This bloke is so convinced Xeno Goku could one-shot Demon God Demigra and that his "feats" from Xenoverse also apply to him.

Nice strawman

[Rakurai]

Nice strawman

Your logic dictates that Xeno Goku should take everything from his video game appearances, without any reason to justify the clear contradictions. So by your logic, any character should everything from their video game appearances, including main timeline Goku. If that is your logic then I have nothing else more to say to you.

[CTAkuma]

Nice strawman

Your logic dictates that Xeno Goku should take everything from his video game appearances, without any reason to justify the clear contradictions. So by your logic, any character should everything from their video game appearances, including main timeline Goku. If that is your logic then I have nothing else more to say to you.

That's another strawman, i'm simply using feats from Xeno Goku in everything he has been in to prove how powerful he is as the OP originally asked like him fighting Demigra in Xenoverse, Heroes etc. . I'm getting tired of this back and forth are you done yet?

[Rakurai]

Nice strawman

Your logic dictates that Xeno Goku should take everything from his video game appearances, without any reason to justify the clear contradictions. So by your logic, any character should everything from their video game appearances, including main timeline Goku. If that is your logic then I have nothing else more to say to you.

That's another strawman, i'm simply using feats from Xeno Goku in everything he has been in to prove how powerful he is as the OP originally asked like him fighting Demigra in Xenoverse, Heroes etc. . I'm getting tired of this back and forth are you done yet?

1. Your original claim of him one-shotting Demigra is hilariously wrong and needed to be corrected.

2. Your logic of destructive feat scaling is fallacious and doesn't make him multiversal when demon/dark magic as well as weak yet hax beings like Zeno exist.

3. Xeno Goku as of current does not exist in DB Xenoverse, so that only shows your ignorance and sheer lack of attention when you try to reference him in Xenoverse.

4. DBH trailers don't reflect in-game story or feats content, as you erroneously claim that Xeno Goku could one-shot Gravy when that didn't actually happened in both the arcade or the manga adaptation (secondary to the arcade, more coherent and cohesive than the trailers). And you fail to provide the source which says that Gravy in general is stronger than Demigra, which I suspect is also BS. Your logic: Broly fought SSJ Gogeta in the Budokai 3 intro, that means he is on par with SSJ Gogeta.

Just wanted to clear my bases on how bad your argumentation is. If there's any emotion I feel from this, it's incredulity at how stubborn and ignorant a person can be on such a simple matter.

[Polyphase Avatron]

Well, we know that that tactic doesn't work from the main series. Anything that you do in the past or future creates a new timeline separate from the others, including your foe's who wouldn't be affected by it.

That's only if

A. You're not a god

or

B. They have a time ring

Demigra is a god, and Goku Xeno doesn't have a time ring (that I know of...). You'd also think that if he had the ability to control all timelines then he could stop new ones from forming.

[Polyphase Avatron]

2. No, it is something that the writers never implied. It's not an argument from emotion, it's from a narrative standpoint. What's more, destructive feats are often inconsistent as otherwise the battle between Blueku and 17 should have threatened the universe. Hell, Merged Zamasu vs Bluegito should have threatened the universe, but nope.

Maybe it didn't threaten the universe because 'it was just a fight' (lamest excuse from Rou Kaioshin ever)

[CTAkuma]

Your logic dictates that Xeno Goku should take everything from his video game appearances, without any reason to justify the clear contradictions. So by your logic, any character should everything from their video game appearances, including main timeline Goku. If that is your logic then I have nothing else more to say to you.

That's another strawman, i'm simply using feats from Xeno Goku in everything he has been in to prove how powerful he is as the OP originally asked like him fighting Demigra in Xenoverse, Heroes etc. . I'm getting tired of this back and forth are you done yet?

1. Your original claim of him one-shotting Demigra is hilariously wrong and needed to be corrected.

2. Your logic of destructive feat scaling is fallacious and doesn't make him multiversal when demon/dark magic as well as weak yet hax beings like Zeno exist.

3. Xeno Goku as of current does not exist in DB Xenoverse, so that only shows your ignorance and sheer lack of attention when you try to reference him in Xenoverse.

4. DBH trailers don't reflect in-game story or feats content, as you erroneously claim that Xeno Goku could one-shot Gravy when that didn't actually happened in both the arcade or the manga adaptation (secondary to the arcade, more coherent and cohesive than the trailers). And you fail to provide the source which says that Gravy in general is stronger than Demigra, which I suspect is also BS. Your logic: Broly fought SSJ Gogeta in the Budokai 3 intro, that means he is on par with SSJ Gogeta.

Just wanted to clear my bases on how bad your argumentation is. If there's any emotion I feel from this, it's incredulity at how stubborn and ignorant a person can be on such a simple matter.

1:Its true though
2:Its true
3:Yes he does he literally is the Goku from the story mode
4:Yes they do, they reflect what happens in the plot and power escalatio isn't as drastic as it was in the original missions

Your entire argument in a nutshell is just ad hominem and strawman ontop of appeal to emotion

[Polyphase Avatron]

How much more powerful does the Dark Dragon Ball make you?

I'm not sure how clear that is because it seems to vary between characters. Turles with the Dark Dragon Ball was stronger than Kid Buu with the Dark Dragon Ball.

And this is why this kind of powerscaling argument just doesn't work. It seems that these powerups are just for the purpose of having old villains return and still be a threat, so the only real answer to 'how much of a power boost is it' is 'enough to make the user a challenge to whichever hero is fighting them at the time'. The games just aren't consistent, since they focus on playability over plot consistency. Not that that's a bad thing, but it makes powerscaling kind of pointless.

Powerscaling from the original DB manga: Pretty reliable
Powerscaling from the anime, Super, and GT: Iffy
Powerscaling from filler, movies, etc: An exercise in futility
Powerscaling from video games:

That's why I got annoyed in the other thread when people were trying to use vague powerscaling arguments to prove certain characters were stronger than Zeno. I was looking for a direct statement or implication, or something like that.

[Rakurai]

That's only if

A. You're not a god

or

B. They have a time ring

Demigra is a god, and Goku Xeno doesn't have a time ring (that I know of...). You'd also think that if he had the ability to control all timelines then he could stop new ones from forming.

Are you referring to when Beerus was so sure that his actions could affect F. Trunks' timeline? Because to me that just seemed like pure arrogance stemming from his divine status and not actual fact.

Idk if Xeno Goku ever had a time ring in UMX. Prob not is my guess. Definitely not in the current SDBH stories, unless the game gives it to him at some later point in time or retroactively, who knows how he managed to chase Fu all the way across time and shit.

2. No, it is something that the writers never implied. It's not an argument from emotion, it's from a narrative standpoint. What's more, destructive feats are often inconsistent as otherwise the battle between Blueku and 17 should have threatened the universe. Hell, Merged Zamasu vs Bluegito should have threatened the universe, but nope.

Maybe it didn't threaten the universe because 'it was just a fight' (lamest excuse from Rou Kaioshin ever)

Honestly the universe-shaking quakes from BoG were seriously stupid and ruined any good sense of powerscaling right from the start of Super, along with that whole SSG-absorbption bullcrap. I mean it's obvious from the way that they retconned those two things in the anime (universe-shaking quakes not ever happening again with stronger fighters, Goku still having SSG after all this time).

[Polyphase Avatron]

(universe-shaking quakes not ever happening again with stronger fighters

Actually they did happen again, both times that Beerus fought Champa. I suppose you could speculate that a Hakaishin has to be involved in the fight for that to happen.

[Rakurai]

(universe-shaking quakes not ever happening again with stronger fighters

Actually they did happen again, both times that Beerus fought Champa. I suppose you could speculate that a Hakaishin has to be involved in the fight for that to happen.

Yeah I was primarily referring to fighters below GoDs. Fighting a GoD will threaten the universe for plot reasons.

If the battles between DBS Broly and Blueku/Bluegita don't threaten the universe with their punches or screams, then I call BS on BoG feats.

[xking]

I don't think we should disregard powerscaling, as we might end up with a problems. Like Is Namek saga first-form Frieza more powerful then cell, because Frieza destroyed a planet with no effort. And cell never showed anything close to that level of power.

And we know these characters have ki-control to localized their destructive potential,minimizing collateral damage.

[ankokudaishogun]

You forgot to mention that Xeno Goku is not GT Goku and effortlessly defeated a Multiversal entity

You are either trolling or completely incapable of reading comprehension.

Also "multiversal entity" makes no sense whatsoever in the context of DB, with the lone exception of Zeno and, MAYBE, Universe Zamasu.
Even "Universal entity" leaves a lot to desire, as we have yet to see anybody except Zeno able to destroy a whole universe by themselves. Even Gods require, at very least, a battle among themselves and even that isn't instantaneous nor leaves permanent damages, suggesting 2 GoD-level beings being the bare minimum to destroy a universe even though alone they are (usually) the highest level damage dealers.

[Rakurai]

I don't think we should disregard powerscaling, as we might end up with a problems. Like Is Namek saga first-form Frieza more powerful then cell, because Frieza destroyed a planet with no effort. And cell never showed anything close to that level of power.

And we know these characters have ki-control to localized their destructive potential,minimizing collateral damage.

Powerscaling through character vs character feats & A > B > C logic (which does not work all the time necessarily, but in DB is usually safe and applicable) gives us an understanding of how strong they are in comparison to one another. Which is all that matters.

Powerscaling through destructive feats from planet busting to multiversal busting is irrelevant and does not help us scale characters relative to each other whatsoever.

Cell > 17 & 18 > Namek SSJ Goku >>> 1st form Frieza purely through story. This is how you powerscale. No need to bring up destroying planets or solar systems.

[Rakurai]

To summarize Xeno Goku's standing relative to a well-known character, Super Goku:

SDBH UM1 arcade: SSJ4 Xeno Goku admits SSB Goku is a step above him after you beat him. A step above him in terms of what (power, skill) is anybody's guess.

SDBH UM1 manga: SSJ4 Xeno Goku clashes with SSB Goku evenly, outcome of fight is skipped. Goku in UM2 chapter remarked that Xeno Goku was pretty strong.

We might get better solo feats as newer missions/chapters are released. In the arcade, Xeno Goku helped defeat some the Xeno Shadow Dragons in the current Demigra saga, and was also confident in fighting Si Xing Long: Xeno by himself, who's stronger than regular Si Xing Long (Goku remarks some of the Xeno Shadow Dragons were stronger than before, indicating he's fought them in the past which strongly implies he hails from the GT timeline + he also recognized Si Xing Long). So current Xeno Goku is also likely stronger than Shadow Dragons saga GT Goku, to what extent is unknown.

[CTAkuma]

You forgot to mention that Xeno Goku is not GT Goku and effortlessly defeated a Multiversal entity

You are either trolling or completely incapable of reading comprehension.

Also "multiversal entity" makes no sense whatsoever in the context of DB, with the lone exception of Zeno and, MAYBE, Universe Zamasu.
Even "Universal entity" leaves a lot to desire, as we have yet to see anybody except Zeno able to destroy a whole universe by themselves. Even Gods require, at very least, a battle among themselves and even that isn't instantaneous nor leaves permanent damages, suggesting 2 GoD-level beings being the bare minimum to destroy a universe even though alone they are (usually) the highest level damage dealers.

You seem to lack the reading comprehension that "feats" and "powerscaling" determine their attack potency. Piccolo destroying the moon in early saiyan saga, Frieza effortlessly destroying planet Vegeta, Cell being stated to destroy a Solar System, Kid Buu being stated to have wrecked havoc upon Galaxies, all things that are not exclusive to them.

If Person A was stated or shown to destroy a universe and Person B comes in and defeats or stomps him, then it is only logical to assume Person B has those same destructive capabilities or power relative to that

Entire argument was that Xeno Goku can Multiverse bust and yes logically speaking he can if he can defeat Demigra who after absorbing Toki Toki could control time and space and was going to destroy the multiverse

[Polyphase Avatron]

I don't think we should disregard powerscaling, as we might end up with a problems. Like Is Namek saga first-form Frieza more powerful then cell, because Frieza destroyed a planet with no effort. And cell never showed anything close to that level of power.

I never said we should, in fact I said that powerscaling based on the original manga was generally reliable.

And we know these characters have ki-control to localized their destructive potential,minimizing collateral damage.

I'm not sure that I buy this argument, because it implies that they can violate the law of conservation of energy by making excess power just disappear into nothingness. But then they wouldn't worry about things like Goku putting enough power into the Kamehameha to destroy the Earth. And in Super it's shown that Beerus and other Hakaishin explicitly do have the ability to make energy disappear, and it's something normal fighters can't do.