Inconstancy with Dragon Ball Super (Anime)

[SupremeKai25]

Wasn't Vegito fooling around with him a bit in the first part of that fight? After the Spirit Sword dupe he starts kicking Zamasu's ass and mocks him for not being able to keep up with his speed.

It was not a onesided fight like with Super Buu. Fused Zamasu was able to trade blows with Vegito and even kicked him in the guts and overpowered him for a moment, plus Vegito was pushed away by Zamasu's eye ki blast.

Ultimately, Fused Zamasu's big mistake was giving into his darker emotions and expanding his size tenfold. Cell and Future Trunks made that mistake in the past too. What's the point of becoming a giant if you're just going to be pathetically slow and clumsy?

Even so, Fused Zamasu's broken regeneration was clearly getting on Vegito's nerves. After the Final Kamehameha miserably failed to annihilate him, Vegito was clearly irritated/upset and tried to finish off Fused Zamasu with that punch. Which, by the way, also failed miserably.

I'm gonna give the Super the benefit of the doubt on this one because the story established that even when his regeneration stared to break down in some way in Episode 66, Merged Zamasu's regeneration capabilities were still broken enough that SSJB Vegetto still couldn't do anything to him and Merged Zamasu had to be literally cut in half down the middle to stop him.

The very fact that Fused Zamasu was half-mortal in the anime is stupid. I don't generally praise the manga, but I much prefer that Fused Zamasu was completely immortal. I'm not really sure what was going through Toei's head when they decided that because one of his fusees was mortal, then Fused Zamasu had to be half-mortal but, spoilers, that's now how fusion works. It's not like Vegito was some kind of freak trapped between life and death in the Super Buu saga, he was 100% alive, even though one of the fusees was dead.

Still, I understand the reason why Toei made that decision. While manga Fused Zamasu might be completely immortal, he is also much weaker than his anime counterpart (he was stomped by Vegito). If anime Fused Zamasu, who was able to hold his ground against Vegito, was also completely immortal, then he would just be unstoppable and the show would end because he would win.

[CTAkuma]

If Zamasu's regeneration was what saved him from Vegetto then why could Trunks do it easily with a Spirit sword? Either you are conceding Vegetto isn't as strong as you think or you really think Trunks with the Spirit Sword could possibly kill Beerus

[Lord Beerus]

If Zamasu's regeneration was what saved him from Vegetto then why could Trunks do it easily with a Spirit sword? Either you are conceding Vegetto isn't as strong as you think or you really think Trunks with the Spirit Sword could possibly kill Beerus

It's all about the circumstances of how you get killed. It's much like what happened with Freeza, Cell and Majin Boo.

With Freeza, getting hit by Genki Dama couldn't kill him, and neither could being on planet that exploded. Despite that, what brought him the closes to death was being cut in half by a Kiezan.

With Cell, the top half of his body get destroyed and he even blows himself up, and despite that, he could still regenerate, despite in the latter case he shouldn't have. And it takes just one powered up Kamehameha to truly kill him.

Majin Boo is an extreme case. He was reduced to literal smoke and still managed to regenerate, but a beefed up Genki Dama, that he was strong enough to push back, manages to do the job.

[PFM18]

For a show that is renowned for having this god-awful power scaling issues, people are having a lot of trouble coming up with legitimate examples of it.

[ekrolo2]

Blue apparently being stamina consuming but Goku & Vegeta shit it, and stronger variants like KK Blue and Evolution out no problem.

[Lord Beerus]

Blue apparently being stamina consuming but Goku & Vegeta shit it, and stronger variants like KK Blue and Evolution out no problem.

I recall the statement being made by Whis -- I think it was in Episode 104 -- that SSJG just consumes less stamina compared to SSJB. I don't recall SSJB being stated as an outright stamina drainer.

I could be wrong, though. I don't remember every episode off of the top of my head.

[RecolorSaiyan]

Dyspo being able to seriously damage hit with his punches in episode 104 but in episode 123 after running BASE freeza through Katchi Katchin, freeza doesn't have a scratch on him and this is mentioned by the pride troopers.

So Base Freeza > Hit now?

[RecolorSaiyan]

Blue apparently being stamina consuming but Goku & Vegeta shit it, and stronger variants like KK Blue and Evolution out no problem.

I recall the statement being made by Whis -- I think it was in Episode 104 -- that SSJG just consumes less stamina compared to SSJB. I don't recall SSJB being stated as an outright stamina drainer.

I could be wrong, though. I don't remember every episode off of the top of my head.

In episode 97 after Goku goes Blue to drop Nink, Beerus asks him why he didn't use blue earlier and both Goku and Whis mention that blue drains stamina which doesn't seem to matter since he spams it vs damn near everyone

[ekrolo2]

Can we cite the timeline as an issue? I ask because I'm not entirely sure what the hell it even is now.

[Lord Beerus]

Blue apparently being stamina consuming but Goku & Vegeta shit it, and stronger variants like KK Blue and Evolution out no problem.

I recall the statement being made by Whis -- I think it was in Episode 104 -- that SSJG just consumes less stamina compared to SSJB. I don't recall SSJB being stated as an outright stamina drainer.

I could be wrong, though. I don't remember every episode off of the top of my head.

In episode 97 after Goku goes Blue to drop Nink, Beerus asks him why he didn't use blue earlier and both Goku and Whis mention that blue drains stamina which doesn't seem to matter since he spams it vs damn near everyone

I just re-watched the episode, and neither Goku or Whis say that. Goku just comments that he didn't use SSJB sooner when Nink was about to eliminate him because he wanted to save his power. And all Whis says in response to this is that it's fine if Goku does that but there would be no point for him to act like if he were to lose.

[ekrolo2]

I recall the statement being made by Whis -- I think it was in Episode 104 -- that SSJG just consumes less stamina compared to SSJB. I don't recall SSJB being stated as an outright stamina drainer.

I could be wrong, though. I don't remember every episode off of the top of my head.

In episode 97 after Goku goes Blue to drop Nink, Beerus asks him why he didn't use blue earlier and both Goku and Whis mention that blue drains stamina which doesn't seem to matter since he spams it vs damn near everyone

I just re-watched the episode, and neither Goku or Whis say that. Goku just comments that he didn't use SSJB sooner when Nink was about to eliminate him because he wanted to save his power. And all Whis says in response to this is that it's fine if Goku does that but there would be no point for him to act like if he were to lose.

Whis says the stamina drain when he fights the Trio de Dangers, here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arqBW4nTYW4

[Rakurai]

Literally most of your arguments hinge on Goku being suppressed where the narrative doesn't imply that, as in Kale & Gohan. So I'm not even going to bother entertaining your arguments.

I am not denying the existence of that dialogue. Beerus was impressed with Goku for being able to make the power his own just by experiencing it. But even by the dialogue you quoted, it is clear he had retained the same level of power as SSG, but he didn't suddenly invalidate SSG. If it wasn't already clear enough that this was strictly just an increase in power and absolutely nothing else, Vegeta confirms it. Vegeta goes to train with Whis for 6 months, and matches if not surpasses the power boost Goku got according to Goku itself. If this sequence in space with Beerus had actually changed the mechanics of the transformations and SSG was now gone as you claim, then now Vegeta should show you this isn't the case. Because if this were the case, then Vegeta and Goku's transformation mechanics would now be different, because Vegeta didn't "absorb" SSG and Goku did. Obviously, this isn't the case. That proves that SSG existing is not contradictory, and therefore, there's no retcon. .

I don't understand what you're trying to get at here. Goku gained god ki through the SSG ritual. Vegeta got it by himself, as Goku stated during the RoF saga. We didn't see how they got Blue, so it was believed at the time that Vegeta achieved SSG at some point during their training and absorbed it on his own too.

But that's not the main point. Vegeta is irrelevant. the BoG dialogue is at conflict with SSG still being a thing. It's clear that the anime followed the films' logic on the transformations. The fact that SSG showed up like 91 episodes later is a blatant example of the inconsistency and Toei's attempts to just sweep all the previous implications underneath the rug to suit the current narrative.

Well then it should be easy to bring up examples of the same thing happening in Super should it not? You literally have Goku in back to back episodes, and in the same episode, having statements/feats that blatantly contradict each other in GT. You can't find such a thing happening in Super. The only arc that even has ok scaling in GT is the Baby arc and even then, it became unclear where Gohan stands(and therefore Base Goku) because they just pretended as though Gohan never had his "Ultimate" state even though in this continuity he never stopped training.

Maybe try to read this thread with clear unbiased eyes for once. Everyone has literally been listing them out.

[PFM18]

Literally most of your arguments hinge on Goku being suppressed where the narrative doesn't imply that, as in Kale & Gohan. So I'm not even going to bother entertaining your arguments.

I literally gave you a ton of evidence regarding the Kale situation and you just ignored it and in Gohan's case you just dismissed it based on nothing without actually refuting anything.

don't understand what you're trying to get at here. Goku gained god ki through the SSG ritual. Vegeta got it by himself, as Goku stated during the RoF saga. We didn't see how they got Blue, so it was believed at the time that Vegeta achieved SSG at some point during their training and absorbed it on his own too.

No, Vegeta matched Goku's power that he gained from the ritual by training with Whis before SSB or God Ki were even introduced. Goku showed up and THEN Goku and Vegeta started training together and gained God Ki. Whis took it to the next level etc. The point is, if Goku's "absorption" after the ritual functioned as anything other than just a power increase and nothing more, and the mechanics of Goku's transformations would have changed from that point forward, then Vegeta wouldn't have been able replicate that power-up by training with Whis. Or, Vegeta and Goku's forms would function differently because Goku "absorbed" the power and Vegeta didn't.

But that's not the main point. Vegeta is irrelevant. the BoG dialogue is at conflict with SSG still being a thing. It's clear that the anime followed the films' logic on the transformations. The fact that SSG showed up like 91 episodes later is a blatant example of the inconsistency and Toei's attempts to just sweep all the previous implications underneath the rug to suit the current narrative.

You're just ignoring everything surrounding the scene and reaching here. There was never any implication whatsoever that SSG could never be used again. The anime is not the movie. In the movie continuity that lead up to them using God Ki in their Base and the inception of "Saiyan Beyond God" that never happened in the anime. It is completely different.

Maybe try to read this thread with clear unbiased eyes for once. Everyone has literally been listing them out.

Did you read what I said?

[Lord Beerus]

In episode 97 after Goku goes Blue to drop Nink, Beerus asks him why he didn't use blue earlier and both Goku and Whis mention that blue drains stamina which doesn't seem to matter since he spams it vs damn near everyone

I just re-watched the episode, and neither Goku or Whis say that. Goku just comments that he didn't use SSJB sooner when Nink was about to eliminate him because he wanted to save his power. And all Whis says in response to this is that it's fine if Goku does that but there would be no point for him to act like if he were to lose.

Whis says the stamina drain when he fights the Trio de Dangers, here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arqBW4nTYW4

Ah, there we go. Point taken.

That kinda reminds of that infamous scenario in GT where Goku could transform into SSJ4 again, while Vegeta couldn't because, with the reasoning being that Goku was "special".

[PFM18]

In episode 97 after Goku goes Blue to drop Nink, Beerus asks him why he didn't use blue earlier and both Goku and Whis mention that blue drains stamina which doesn't seem to matter since he spams it vs damn near everyone

I just re-watched the episode, and neither Goku or Whis say that. Goku just comments that he didn't use SSJB sooner when Nink was about to eliminate him because he wanted to save his power. And all Whis says in response to this is that it's fine if Goku does that but there would be no point for him to act like if he were to lose.

Whis says the stamina drain when he fights the Trio de Dangers, here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arqBW4nTYW4

I mean to be fair, if Goku uses SSB for a couple minutes for whatever reason, because of the way the time in the tournament is, that only amounts to like 6 seconds of In-Universe time. I would imagine SSB isn't draining enough to be significant after like 5 seconds. I think it really just served as a rationalization for why Goku wasn''t using SSB to one shot fodder or use it the whole tournament.

[CJStriker_CBR]

- Pretty much any fight involving Ribrianne is a mess of power scaling. She gets hit the worst in the show in the strength department because it's literally a case of Depending on the Writer. In Episode 102 she fights evenly with SSJ Vegeta and then in Episode 103 she holds her own against #17. Then in Episode 109, Goku uses SSJB to take down a love fueld/powered up version of her. Fast forward to Episode 111 and Base Vegeta is on verge of jobbing her out. And in her final episode, Episode 117, she becomes a loved up/powered up giant monster and restrains #18, only for #18 to effortly defeat her with one punch. It's a mess.

Yeah, she was definitely all over the place. But believe it or not, I think that was done on purpose. The manga portrays it much better than the anime did, but I think her power was supposed to fluctuate. In the manga they explain that depending on how she perceives her own beauty,(love in the anime) she is stronger/weaker accordingly. I don't really know, either way it is a bit weird.

I like to think as a Fan of Ribrianne/Brianne that the same style and explanation that was given in the Manga also applied to the Anime as well for her in theory.

It would explain allot of the inconstancy that where witnessed by fans of the anime. It would be a unique and interesting power-set, one along the lines as the same with that of the likes of the Green Lanterns from DC Comics, the stronger their will and ablity to truly overcome fear the stronger their power was, same with Ribrianne and her belief in Love. It would led to Ribrianne having very sudden high and amazing showings of power for future stories and fights to look forward too. Their are moments in the anime that also support help to support that theory, like in episode 111 when Ribrianne is losing confidence that she and U2 could win the ToP, leading to why only Base level Vegeta could go one on one with her at that time fine.

However, sadly the anime so far never gives the same reasoning as in the manga, we have yet to hear from the Funimation dub that might correct this, but so far IMO only the Manga Part can be put into being a theory for the anime.

Honestly outside of that, it is just a clearer example of just how Bad the Writing Staff was on the ToP. By what I have heard, having different writers for different episodes is what lead to some episodes seeming to not flow well into one another, MasakoX gave word to this recently in one of his episodes about why episode 119 was so bad for this reason and I concur with him on that.

Ribrianne's character is good, was good and had some Grand Moments and showed Great Power, their was nothing in her character, design or theme which made sense to lead to such off the scaling and inconstant power scaling. Like allot of comics, it is the Writers Fault for bad communication and networking with each other on Ribrianne and with other moments and characters in the ToP as well.

IMO the Fault for this is with the Writers not doing their job.

I just hope if Super comes back that Toei works these writing problems out 1st and foremost to better respect Ribrianne/Brianne for her character and her fans , as well as for other characters and aspects in DB.

[Kataphrut]

I've always said the one big power inconsistency in the anime that actually doesn't make sense is the difference between Goku's performance against Kale in 100 vs 114. You can say he was suppressing himself in Blue as much as you want, but if he was actually holding back, he would have been able to handle her better and not get literally ragdolled, even if it didn't actually hurt him that much. Plus, the whole sequence is there to set up Jiren by showing he can effortlessly take down an enemy that Blue Goku couldn't handle.

They broke the rules for the same of homage, simple as that. We can call Goku v Kale in 114 as the more "canon" version of that fight.

The other big one is Vegeta using his Super EvoBlution form against Jiren after explicitly using up all his energy against Top* in the episode prior. That felt like an honest-to-god mistake, and the next episode has him properly drained.

*I make a point of using dub terms on this board, gotta start making my bed...

[CJStriker_CBR]

I've always said the one big power inconsistency in the anime that actually doesn't make sense is the difference between Goku's performance against Kale in 100 vs 114. You can say he was suppressing himself in Blue as much as you want, but if he was actually holding back, he would have been able to handle her better and not get literally ragdolled, even if it didn't actually hurt him that much. Plus, the whole sequence is there to set up Jiren by showing he can effortlessly take down an enemy that Blue Goku couldn't handle.

They broke the rules for the same of homage, simple as that. We can call Goku v Kale in 114 as the more "canon" version of that fight.

The other big one is Vegeta using his Super EvoBlution form against Jiren after explicitly using up all his energy against Top* in the episode prior. That felt like an honest-to-god mistake, and the next episode has him properly drained.

*I make a point of using dub terms on this board, gotta start making my bed...

Could Not Agree with you more on both of these as Good Examples as to other sadly Inconstant writing examples on power scaling and the stamina plot armor problems by the writers!

Especially the one with Kale vs Goku, that one bothered me allot with the clear differences between when happen in 100 to 114, by then Red to easily tank Kale, I was just really, what where the writers thinking to be that disconnects with the flow of the story.

[PFM18]

I've always said the one big power inconsistency in the anime that actually doesn't make sense is the difference between Goku's performance against Kale in 100 vs 114. You can say he was suppressing himself in Blue as much as you want, but if he was actually holding back, he would have been able to handle her better and not get literally ragdolled, even if it didn't actually hurt him that much. Plus, the whole sequence is there to set up Jiren by showing he can effortlessly take down an enemy that Blue Goku couldn't handle.

They broke the rules for the same of homage, simple as that. We can call Goku v Kale in 114 as the more "canon" version of that fight.

The other big one is Vegeta using his Super EvoBlution form against Jiren after explicitly using up all his energy against Top* in the episode prior. That felt like an honest-to-god mistake, and the next episode has him properly drained.

*I make a point of using dub terms on this board, gotta start making my bed...

No, Goku was just holding back in the first fight. There's nothing inconsistent about it at all.

-The direct translation that Goku uses going SSJ2->SSB is that he'll "use a bit more power", obviously had he used SSB's full-power it would be a lot more than "a bit" more than SSJ2.
-Goku sustains no battle damage after Kale has thrown him around.
-Goku isn't impressed by Jiren one shotting her(implying he could have done the same) and then even challenges Jiren immediately afterwards.
-At the end of episode 101, an episode after Kale walked through the KHH, Goku tells them: "both of you get stronger and THEN we will have our REAL fight." Which obviously indicates that Goku doesn't feel like the pair of them can give him a real fight. (AKA he was suppressed)
-Goku goes SSB during 109, and Belmod states that "at last he has brought out the true of power of Super Saiyan Blue." Obviously indicating that he didn't use it prior to this point against Kale.
-Even though we know SSB Goku is stronger than Hit, in episode 104 Hit is still stated to be the ace of Universe 6. If Kale ACTUALLY was stronger than SSB, then she would be the ace of Universe 6.

And no, the sequence is not there to hype Jiren. There's PLENTY of things that hype up Jiren's power. The sequence is literally just there as an homage and nothing else

[Dagon]

There are too many to list. But here are my Top 4:

1. Super Saiyan God. Specifically the first two sagas when we were led to initially believe the "Saiyan Beyond God" status, i.e. Goku & Vegeta becoming as strong as SSG in their base form. Then they retconned the hell out of that during U6 vs. U7 tournament, making base Goku & Vegeta as weak as they used to be in order to make SSJ forms still relevant. Then we find out Goku (& later Vegeta in the film!) could still turn SSG, effectively retconning the whole SSG-absorption ordeal.

Not a retcon. Simply that the post-ritual or "stacked" SSJG has a different multiplication than the ritual SSJG. It would mean base Goku has a power level akin to the ritual SSJG, then can turn into a SSJG form on top of his lower forms once he completes Whis' training to gain mastery of god ki.

2. Kale. Walks through SSB Kamehameha and ragdolls Blueku. Then her SSJ2 form (stated to be more powerful than her Berserk form by Tien, who admittedly is not the most reliable but still part of the narrative) only matches SSG Goku. This could be rectified if we are to believe Goku grew significantly stronger after his battle with Jiren, but it's still hard to swallow that post-Jiren SSG Goku > pre-Jiren SSB Goku, an entire transformation boost gap cleared in like less than 5 minutes' worth of in-universe time.

Interpret as Goku breaking his limits to the insane degree he did from the spirit bomb incident allows him to make ludicrous power increases in the short term thereafter.

3. The SSJ3 Gotenks bullshit. Since it's filler, we can forget about this ever happening if we overlook a couple of inconsistencies in the dialogue by doing so.

I don't think there is an inconsistency. Just take it as their base is still beyond SSJG by that point. And technically DBS anime has no filler, so you can't disregard it. And what dialogue inconsistencies are you referring to?

4. Trunks. Guy was just a walking bag full of asspulls.

Goku Black arc was full of asspulls, yes, and should have been written better. However maybe we can take it as Trunks getting the gist of god ki once he trains with Blue Vegeta(SSJ Rage).