Is There Such Thing As "Limits" Regarding Any & All Degrees/Transformations/States Of Power In DB Anymore?

[theherodjl]

Take Gohan's Ultimate state for example, it was my understanding that this was supposed to be his Ultimate power-up(hence it's name), but DBS effectively threw that all out the window by making Ultimate yet another transformation then having Gohan desire to push to a greater level of power as an Earthling. How about SSJ3??? It was once touted by the Daizenshuu as being a Saiyan's power brought to its limits, but then the introduction of SSJG/SSJB reduced SSJ3 to just being a 3rd form in the SSJ lineage with SSJG/SSJB being the 4th & 5th transformations respectively. What about the Earthlings even? They were once admitting that their level of power was too insignificant to be of any help against foes from DBZ, but DBS has since rewritten their powers to being at least of some help against present-day enemies & challenges(which make the strongest DBZ villains look utterly weak in comparison).
Can we safely say that the concept of limits regarding any character & their power in DB whether they be an Earthling, a Saiyan, a half-breed, an Android, a Majin, or any other class/race of being simply never existed to being with? And that 'limits' are only defined as the power they remain at while not training? For real, how can limits in previous arcs of the story be justified when we now know that they were bullshit just for the sake of giving the characters a set threat to deal with???

[Polyphase Avatron]

I doubt they will ever make the protagonists stronger than Zeno.

[Kataphrut]

Gee, it's almost like self-improvement and breaking of barriers is a core theme of the franchise or something.

Seriously, there is a conversation to be had about the need for constant escalation and the long-term impact it can have on the series the longer it goes on, but saying "why isn't Super Saiyan 3 the strongest form any more?" isn't it.

[theherodjl]

I doubt they will ever make the protagonists stronger than Zeno.

Aren't they technically already? Zeno cannot comprehend the speed of fighters on par with Gods, and his own strength isn't actual strength determined by a degree of Ki, but a reality-wipe ability that he activates by raising his hand(s) in the air. He's immune to his own reality-erasure since he still exists in the void where the mutliverse once was, but whether he has complete immunity to any degree of power is not yet known. Can you imagine Zeno facing off against Living Tribunal or someone stronger, and being able to tank any attack that comes his way?

Gee, it's almost like self-improvement and breaking of barriers is a core theme of the franchise or something.

Seriously, there is a conversation to be had about the need for constant escalation and the long-term impact it can have on the series the longer it goes on, but saying "why isn't Super Saiyan 3 the strongest form any more?" isn't it.

Attempting to filibuster the discussion with sarcasm is unnecessary & uncalled for.

[Kataphrut]

Gee, it's almost like self-improvement and breaking of barriers is a core theme of the franchise or something.

Seriously, there is a conversation to be had about the need for constant escalation and the long-term impact it can have on the series the longer it goes on, but saying "why isn't Super Saiyan 3 the strongest form any more?" isn't it.

Attempting to filibuster the discussion with sarcasm is unnecessary & uncalled for.

I just don't see how any of what you described is an issue. Super Saiyan 3 going from the ultimate form to just another step up the ladder? That's no different from it and SS2 supplanting the original Super Saiyan form, which was supposed to be the ultimate warrior of prophecy. This series is all about escalation and finding new ways to move forward. Same goes for the idea that Gohan and the humans can improve from where the old story left them. That just opens up possibilities for them to be active in the story.

[Doctor.]

Escalation has gotten to the point they can no longer manage it, so they just triple down on it and play it seriously. The Boo arc was self-aware enough and recognized how ridiculous power levels were getting so it chose to make fun of itself. GT tried to nerf characters and dial back the escalation because it, too, recognized it as a problem. Super plays it straight and just shatters your suspension of disbelief every time someone gets stronger.

[KBABZ]

I mean, plainly no? From the start of the series Goku meets people with abilities far in excess of what he can do at that point, like Roshi, Tao, Tien, Daimao, Raditz, Vegeta, Frieza, Cell, Buu, Beerus, Jiren, etc etc etc. So long as that hamster wheel can keep bringing in the money I don't think it'll change anytime soon.

[Nokra]

Surpassing limits with new transformations is what dragonball has always been about. Why are people only now just starting to realize/complain about this?

[Jackalope89]

Surpassing limits with new transformations is what dragonball has always been about. Why are people only now just starting to realize/complain about this?

My thoughts as well.

[Lionel]

Similar conclusions could have been drawn with moments such as the Choshinsui which is supposed to release all of the latent potential of the drinker. Potential is an ever fluctuating concept that can be adjusted depending on the exposure and comprehension of the person to new realms of strength. If it makes sense, I think the mental and courage related components of ki might somehow compose and acclimate the person to the conditions of this new realm of strength. Subsequently their genki would begin to shatter their own ceilings to reach equilibrium with their shoki and yuki. Maybe that could somehow explain it?

[SupremeKai25]

There are many characters in Dragon Ball whose potential is truly LIMITLESS, but the one that stands out the most is Fused Zamasu. Why? Because he didn't only have immortality (which means that he would never die of old age so he could keep training for eternity), but his potential was also endless (because half of him was a Saiyan), and his strength expanded to no end upon his birth. Indeed, just look at what he was able to achieve: A merge with the very fabric of the cosmos, and transcension of time and space, all in the span of a few seconds.

Fused Zamasu truly represents how absurd some characters' potential has become over years and years of power creep.

[Polyphase Avatron]

I doubt they will ever make the protagonists stronger than Zeno.

Aren't they technically already? Zeno cannot comprehend the speed of fighters on par with Gods

As I've said before, being faster than him doesn't matter because he's essentially indestructible and can wipe you out with a gesture. Do you really think that Dyspo could beat Zeno in a fight?

and his own strength isn't actual strength determined by a degree of Ki, but a reality-wipe ability that he activates by raising his hand(s) in the air. He's immune to his own reality-erasure since he still exists in the void where the mutliverse once was, but whether he has complete immunity to any degree of power is not yet known. Can you imagine Zeno facing off against Living Tribunal or someone stronger, and being able to tank any attack that comes his way?

My point wasn't that no characters can ever be more powerful than Zeno, but rather that they would never make the protagonists of the Dragonball franchise more powerful than him, because that would destroy the essence of the series. They wouldn't be fighting or doing martial arts anymore, they would just be contesting reality warping powers against each other. That's not what Dragonball has ever been about.

The fact that Zeno is not a traditional fighter, but he has these powers that make him invincible to anyone who relies on traditional fighting, regardless of things like strength or speed, tells me that there is a clear limit being established. You can't beat Zeno just by punching harder, moving faster, or firing bigger ki blasts. They would have to completely change the paradigm of how fighting works in the series to have the protagonists surpass him, and then it wouldn't be the action series we know and love. Can you imagine 20 episodes of Goku and some villain just standing around, trying to think each other out of existence? Unless you're doing something like Sandman, you just can't write interesting stories starring characters with powers like that. That especially goes for a series that is ostensibly based on action and martial arts.

[RecolorSaiyan]

Its feels crazy cause of the ToP arc which was basically the namek saga compressed into 48 minutes imo
Once toriyama gave 2013 interview where he said " saiyans rapidly improve DURING battle" thats where the powercreep went completely bonkers. Now they can justify any increase in no time at all because thats what saiyans have apparently always done

[PFM18]

Escalation has gotten to the point they can no longer manage it, so they just triple down on it and play it seriously. The Boo arc was self-aware enough and recognized how ridiculous power levels were getting so it chose to make fun of itself. GT tried to nerf characters and dial back the escalation because it, too, recognized it as a problem. Super plays it straight and just shatters your suspension of disbelief every time someone gets stronger.

What makes you think the Boo arc was making fun of itself? Seemed to be it was taking itself seriously. and GT nerfed characters and dialed back the escalation? You sure about that? The escalation was insane in GT, it was several fold more than it was in the original series there was no such "dialing back."

[Doctor.]

Escalation has gotten to the point they can no longer manage it, so they just triple down on it and play it seriously. The Boo arc was self-aware enough and recognized how ridiculous power levels were getting so it chose to make fun of itself. GT tried to nerf characters and dial back the escalation because it, too, recognized it as a problem. Super plays it straight and just shatters your suspension of disbelief every time someone gets stronger.

What makes you think the Boo arc was making fun of itself? Seemed to be it was taking itself seriously. and GT nerfed characters and dialed back the escalation? You sure about that? The escalation was insane in GT, it was several fold more than it was in the original series there was no such "dialing back."

The fact that it was inherently less serious than every other arc that preceded it; the fact that the big transformation of the arc, Super Saiyan 3, has a ridiculous, over-the-top design and is completely useless for most of the arc; the fact that such a powerful plot device as fusion, which is the last resort of the heroes, is played for laughs in the form of Gotenks, who is actually a literal child who abuses his massive power and doesn't take the situation seriously (and his whole shtick of giving super long, ridiculous names to his mundane attacks); the ultimate big bad of the entire series leading up to this point is pink bubblegum that turns people into candy; and other minor stuff I could only point out upon rereading the arc.

Don't get me wrong, the arc presents its story with some degree of seriousness and sincerity, it's not entirely comical, but that's not the point. The Boo arc clearly recognizes how ridiculous escalation has become and tries to have some fun with the series' conventions; it's as self-aware as the series has ever been, even more-so than it was during the first arcs. It doesn't mean that it can't be criticized from a writing standpoint, as I think a lot of what the Boo arc attempts falls flat on many occasions, but it's also important to recognize what the arc was going for.

GT nerfed Goku by making him a kid and taking away Instant Transmission and Super Saiyan 3. Obviously, he eventually gets past this and gets a stronger form. But I think the series is fairly conservative regarding escalation. Vegeta is almost never present, so you don't have this constant dick-measuring contest between him and Goku that leads to absurd power-ups every second. Goku's companions are Pan and Trunks, which are very weak compared to him. Super Saiyan 4 may be a lot stronger than 3, but the series never escalates power in any big way until the last arc with Super Yi Xing Long and Gogeta. Compared to Super, GT is a lot more tame. Hell, compared to some Z arcs, GT is tame.

[KBABZ]

GT nerfed Goku by making him a kid and taking away Instant Transmission and Super Saiyan 3. Obviously, he eventually gets past this and gets a stronger form. But I think the series is fairly conservative regarding escalation. Vegeta is almost never present, so you don't have this constant dick-measuring contest between him and Goku that leads to absurd power-ups every second. Goku's companions are Pan and Trunks, which are very weak compared to him. Super Saiyan 4 may be a lot stronger than 3, but the series never escalates power in any big way until the last arc with Super Yi Xing Long and Gogeta. Compared to Super, GT is a lot more tame. Hell, compared to some Z arcs, GT is tame.

Huh, I don't recall Super Saiyan 3 ever being a problem for Kid Goku in the episodes I watched to keep up with the Review of Awesomeness. Instant Transmission I felt was more to make the Black Star Ball search have more stakes to it and so felt more like a Hand Wave than a Nerf; outside of using it against Cell for that Warp Kamehameha, I don't think IT has ever been used in battle since that "rapid flashy IT-like movement" has always sufficed.