Is anyone with the belief that Base Goku post SSJG > Z Super Vegetto?

[Saturnine]

Yeah we are. Goku does several things throughout Super that would very clearly be impossible if that power increase from BoG was not left intact.

That may be the case, but at the same time there are some contradictions too, like certain characters needing to be way stronger than their portrayal suggests. Future Trunks and all the U6 fighters would need to be at low God tier - Frost would need to be significantly stronger than RoF Freeza and most glaringly Cabba - who never received a power boost from dropping out of SSj God, and had never even heard of regular Super Saiyans before, would need to be that strong too. Sure you can say this not sitting well with people is "headcanon", but you can't dismiss these concerns entirely, just like that.

Oh, and not that this is anyone's problem really, but good luck convincing GT fanboys that base Super Goku is stronger than GT's. They thrive on GT Goku's supposedly amazing base power you know

[Tectorman]

1) We already know that retaining SSJG's power doesn't necessarily equate to retaining the "undetectable by non-deities" aspect. In the series, Goku fought Beerus as a "Super Saiyan Beyond God" (whether temporary or permanent) with all the power his SSJG form had had, and his friends were able to sense him. It therefore follows that if Super Saiyan Beyond God can have SSJG's power while still being able to be sensed by non-deities, then Saiyan Beyond God can also be at that level of power while still being able to be sensed by non-deities.

retaining the power of SSG is something entirely different from "Saiyan Beyond God" and "Super Saiyan Beyond God" is just something you made up and was never officially recognized. He was using normal ki and that was explained.

The "Saiyan Beyond God" that was officially recognized was explained to be achieved in their time training with Whis and was defined by "using god power without changing form." Since "ki" and "power" are essentially interchangeable terms, considering that "power level" literally just refers to a numerical readout of ki, this was referring to God Ki. But Goku and Vegeta were sensed in their Base form, and so it is clear that this is longer applies from the movie.

I made up the name "Super Saiyan Beyond God" (while putting it in quotes to signify exactly what I was doing, anyway) as a shorthand for "SSJ that still has nearly all of SSJG's power". Because I'm not going to type all of that out each time.

But I didn't make up the form itself. In both the movie and the series, Goku is clearly fighting Beerus as a SSJ that's doing just as well as SSJG had been previously. Just like in the movie, Goku went from 80% SSJG to SbG and didn't notice a difference. Before the form had been given an official name, before any training with Whis had occurred, we could already see him fighting at that level while still appearing in Base. And while yes, he and Vegeta undoubtedly made significant gains regarding that form under Whis, in terms of power or control or something else, that doesn't negate that he already had the form in BoG, so why harp on the name?

Regarding this requirement that SbG be a Saiyan appearing normal but using both power as great as a SSJG's but also possessing its undetectable nature, where was that ever established? In the series, the characters remark that Goku's ki vanished when he went SSB. In the movie, we don't have any remarks either way. That's not an inconsistency; if Goku's ki went from detectable as an SbG to undetectable as an SSB, then the comments in the series and the lack of a comment in the movie both fit. There's a difference in whether the thing is being remarked upon, which is not the same, as the thing itself being different.

3) Goku no longer uses the Kaioken as a regular Saiyan. He uses it instead to power up his SSB form, but not his regular form. But no one says that he doesn't have the ability to use Kaioken in Base, we just acknowledge that it's still there and simply not used. So why is there this insistence that SbG is not only something that he no longer uses but is still there, but something that he never had in the first place? It's like saying that Goku can't use the "Rock-Paper-Scissors Fist" since he hasn't used it since the 21st WMAT.

Goku never had a "Saiyan Beyond God" state in the first place in Super. If it wasn't for the RoF movie, we wouldn't be having this conversation because people never would have been given any reason to believe that there was a normal state different than Base that used God Ki. That was in the RoF movie, and we receive no indication of it's existence in Super.

Kaioken isn't analogous. False Super Saiyan would be a more accurate example. If people assumed that Goku could use False Super Saiyan up until he had actual SSJ, but just chose not to, despite that only appearing in another continuity.

Again, Goku having a significant portion of SSJG's power in Base was clearly established in BoG; except for the name, we already were talking about it and RoF didn't change that.

We've got plenty of indications in the series. Heck, prior to the series, we were under the impression from the movies that there was only one Base and it had just gotten ridiculously boosted. For example, Gohan never topped his Buu Arc power prior to training with Piccolo before the ToP. So the SSJ he used to spar with Goku (as the Great Saiyaman) was well below that level. Yet he and Goku were caught up enough in the fighting to wreck the field. More to the point, Goku wasn't out-of-his-mind bored by Gohan's power (which was well below the Ultimate power he'd demonstrated against Beerus in BoG, which was well below SSJG's power in BoG which ended up being equivalent to "SSbG"). And in RoF in the series, Gohan (well below his Ultimate power) got wrecked by First Form Frieza while Goku in apparent Base fought evenly with Final Form Frieza. That's the series, more than the movies, pointing to a difference between his normal state and one looking normal but using god-level-but-still-detectable ki.

[Marlowe89]

As many others in this thread have said, at present, the answer is quite clearly no.

Even if you take away every other implication that Goku doesn't actually breach godly levels of power without his godly Super Saiyan forms -- which honestly sounds self-explanatory to me -- the exhibition match confirms it outright when Goku transforms into one of those forms (specifically Blue) followed by the characters commenting on how he just then reached the level of the gods. Previously, the level of the gods was attributed exclusively to Super Saiyan God and the God-absorbed Super Saiyan state from BoG.

It would have to mean that A.) there was a retcon, or B.) the absorbed state was a temporary form due to some other explanation that the story wasn't entirely clear about. Regardless, the dialogue spells out the fact that plain old Super Saiyan doesn't come close to that level according to the current narrative. And that makes sense because it jives with every other format in Super, including the manga and recent film materials.

[zarmack]

As many others in this thread have said, at present, the answer is quite clearly no.

Even if you take away every other implication that Goku doesn't actually breach godly levels of power without his godly Super Saiyan forms -- which honestly sounds self-explanatory to me -- the exhibition match confirms it outright when Goku transforms into one of those forms (specifically Blue) followed by the characters commenting on how he just then reached the level of the gods. Previously, the level of the gods was attributed exclusively to Super Saiyan God and the God-absorbed Super Saiyan state from BoG.

It would have to mean that A.) there was a retcon, or B.) the absorbed state was a temporary form due to some other explanation that the story wasn't entirely clear about. Regardless, the dialogue spells out the fact that plain old Super Saiyan doesn't come close to that level according to the current narrative. And that makes sense because it jives with every other format in Super, including the manga and recent film materials.

There are way, way too many feats to suggest that current Base Goku & Vegeta > BoG SSG Goku wasn't retconned. The power of Base Black in the anime as well as power of Base Broly in the new film also suggest that there was no retcon.

Also, the "level of the gods" refers to them rivaling the power of the Hakaishin (who's power levels vary among themselves), not the god forms (transformations in DB are not tiers, they are multipliers).

The only reason why people even think there was a retcon is because they simply don't like the idea of the current base Saiyans being strong enough to solo Z, despite the lack of any real evidence that they can't. Its no different from how Raditz could solo Early DB.

[PFM18]

As many others in this thread have said, at present, the answer is quite clearly no.

Even if you take away every other implication that Goku doesn't actually breach godly levels of power without his godly Super Saiyan forms -- which honestly sounds self-explanatory to me -- the exhibition match confirms it outright when Goku transforms into one of those forms (specifically Blue) followed by the characters commenting on how he just then reached the level of the gods. Previously, the level of the gods was attributed exclusively to Super Saiyan God and the God-absorbed Super Saiyan state from BoG.

It would have to mean that A.) there was a retcon, or B.) the absorbed state was a temporary form due to some other explanation that the story wasn't entirely clear about. Regardless, the dialogue spells out the fact that plain old Super Saiyan doesn't come close to that level according to the current narrative. And that makes sense because it jives with every other format in Super, including the manga and recent film materials.

There are way, way too many feats to suggest that current Base Goku & Vegeta > BoG SSG Goku wasn't retconned. The power of Base Black in the anime as well as power of Base Broly in the new film also suggest that there was no retcon.

Base Goku Vegeta>BoG SSG Goku was NEVER the case during Super so it cant be retconned if it never happened. Exactly 0 statements corroborating such a thing. Also, Base Black and Broly being really strong has nothing to do with this.

[p-hyvo]

As many others in this thread have said, at present, the answer is quite clearly no.

Even if you take away every other implication that Goku doesn't actually breach godly levels of power without his godly Super Saiyan forms -- which honestly sounds self-explanatory to me -- the exhibition match confirms it outright when Goku transforms into one of those forms (specifically Blue) followed by the characters commenting on how he just then reached the level of the gods. Previously, the level of the gods was attributed exclusively to Super Saiyan God and the God-absorbed Super Saiyan state from BoG.

It would have to mean that A.) there was a retcon, or B.) the absorbed state was a temporary form due to some other explanation that the story wasn't entirely clear about. Regardless, the dialogue spells out the fact that plain old Super Saiyan doesn't come close to that level according to the current narrative. And that makes sense because it jives with every other format in Super, including the manga and recent film materials.

There are way, way too many feats to suggest that current Base Goku & Vegeta > BoG SSG Goku wasn't retconned. The power of Base Black in the anime as well as power of Base Broly in the new film also suggest that there was no retcon.

Base Goku Vegeta>BoG SSG Goku was NEVER the case during Super so it cant be retconned if it never happened. Exactly 0 statements corroborating such a thing. Also, Base Black and Broly being really strong has nothing to do with this.

In my opinion, it works like this
The ritual multiplier boosted their base, creating the condition in wich beyond god = ssg
Then, since they lerarned how to use god ki, the god multiplier has decreased , and god/new multiplier = base forms + god ki

Example:
In my, opinion, ritual has a mult of x42'000'000'000'000'000'000'000 (42 sextillions)
This will always be god/beyond god, if we assume that base goku(only mortal ki) = 1
IMO, mastered god has a mult of x'6000, so base goku+god ki will be
42'000'000'000'000'000'000'000/6'000 =
7'000'000'000'000'000'000

Going by this way of thinking, I come to have ssj goku(base+god ki, ssj) early top > original bog god goku
(This works only for the anime of dbs

[zarmack]

Yeah we are. Goku does several things throughout Super that would very clearly be impossible if that power increase from BoG was not left intact.

That may be the case, but at the same time there are some contradictions too, like certain characters needing to be way stronger than their portrayal suggests. Future Trunks and all the U6 fighters would need to be at low God tier - Frost would need to be significantly stronger than RoF Freeza and most glaringly Cabba - who never received a power boost from dropping out of SSj God, and had never even heard of regular Super Saiyans before, would need to be that strong too. Sure you can say this not sitting well with people is "headcanon", but you can't dismiss these concerns entirely, just like that.

Oh, and not that this is anyone's problem really, but good luck convincing GT fanboys that base Super Goku is stronger than GT's. They thrive on GT Goku's supposedly amazing base power you know

No way in hell is GT Goku's base stronger than Super Goku's. Base GT Goku is either equal to SSJ3 Buu arc Goku (low-ball) or 50x stronger than Buu arc Ultimate Gohan (high-ball). Both of which are way lower than what Post-BoG base Goku and base Vegeta have shown in Super.

[p-hyvo]

Yeah we are. Goku does several things throughout Super that would very clearly be impossible if that power increase from BoG was not left intact.

That may be the case, but at the same time there are some contradictions too, like certain characters needing to be way stronger than their portrayal suggests. Future Trunks and all the U6 fighters would need to be at low God tier - Frost would need to be significantly stronger than RoF Freeza and most glaringly Cabba - who never received a power boost from dropping out of SSj God, and had never even heard of regular Super Saiyans before, would need to be that strong too. Sure you can say this not sitting well with people is "headcanon", but you can't dismiss these concerns entirely, just like that.

Oh, and not that this is anyone's problem really, but good luck convincing GT fanboys that base Super Goku is stronger than GT's. They thrive on GT Goku's supposedly amazing base power you know

No way in hell is GT Goku's base stronger than Super Goku's. Base GT Goku is either equal to SSJ3 Buu arc Goku (low-ball) or 50x stronger than Buu arc Ultimate Gohan (high-ball). Both of which are way lower than what Post-BoG base Goku and base Vegeta have shown in Super.

You aren't wrong saying "dbs goku> gt goku", but you have horribly failed in valutating gt goku's strength.
By m2 arc, goku was already much stronger than rildo, who was stronger than rage buuhan, making base goku >>SS vegetto from z.
From baby saga on, literally anyone in gt is >> ss vegetto from z via scaling, even pan.
In baby saga , we have
Base goku>>base Vegeta>baby Gohan>base gohan>ssj baby goten >>base goten >kid baby >>pan>>baby toddler >rildo

In s17 arc, via scaling goku is already stronger than his former ssj4 state in his base , and the other saiyan aren't weaker than majuub :

Ssj goku >s17(attacks absorbed)>>base goku >s17(initial)≥oozaru baby>>ssj2 vegeta>>base Vegeta= super baby 2 = hell fighter 17 ≥ssj2 Gohan >>majuub >ssj trunks/goten>rildo(powerd in hell)>base Gohan >base trunks/goten>pan

In shadow dragons saga, following the logic of zenkais, base goku would be at least x20 stronger than his s17 arc self. then after the fight with naturon shenron, base goku and base nova are in the same tier with the x10 kamehameha that killed naturon.
After that, by healing, facing syn/omega shenron goku takes another x5 Rapid scale :

Ssj4 goku (vs nova)= 1 , blind = 0,5
Ussj4 goku, blind (vs syn) = 5
syn shenron = 4 , omega = 40 , omega FP = 56
Ssj4 goku, healed = 4 , ufpssj4 goku = 60
Ussj4 goku = 40
Omega shenron, tired = 36
Syn, tired + 6 balls = 32,2
Ssj4 gogeta = 689 (even though this is an uncomfortable number to work with, I like to use it as a reference to a power level list that was the main source fore neatly everyone in Italy 10 years ago or so, that gave ssj4 gogeta a pl of 689'000'000 KEK)

The situation in gt scaling wise Is that, saying goku = ssj3 z goku is wrong bs

[PFM18]

Yeah we are. Goku does several things throughout Super that would very clearly be impossible if that power increase from BoG was not left intact.

That may be the case, but at the same time there are some contradictions too, like certain characters needing to be way stronger than their portrayal suggests. Future Trunks and all the U6 fighters would need to be at low God tier - Frost would need to be significantly stronger than RoF Freeza and most glaringly Cabba - who never received a power boost from dropping out of SSj God, and had never even heard of regular Super Saiyans before, would need to be that strong too. Sure you can say this not sitting well with people is "headcanon", but you can't dismiss these concerns entirely, just like that.

Oh, and not that this is anyone's problem really, but good luck convincing GT fanboys that base Super Goku is stronger than GT's. They thrive on GT Goku's supposedly amazing base power you know

Frost being stronger than RoF Freeza and Cabba being really strong aren't really contradicted. Sure, I won't dismiss your concerns about these character's portrayal in power, but there really isn't enough/any evidence to conclude otherwise. Especially since immediately following the arc with Cabba/Frost they show two "feats" from Goku that corroborate his super strong Base form, in the form of him fodderizing SSJ3 Gotenks and being able to entertain/fight Beerus in Base which at a minimum places him above his SSJ3 self from the beginning of Super.