Is anyone with the belief that Base Goku post SSJG > Z Super Vegetto?

[SSJgogeto]

Well, technically Super isn't really clear about the subject. We saw almost the same scene from the movie in the anime: Frieza in his final form - when his first form was enough to defeat SS Gohan easily - versus Goku with a white aura. If I'm right, Vegeta did that too.

Personally, I believe that "Beyond God" is just a step, not the final objective. That would explain why they don't use that form regularly, considering of course "Beyond God" is a thing in the anime.

The white aura is just how Goku and Vegeta's ki looks in base form. They have that while training with Whis before he ever teaches them to use god ki. Krillin can sense Goku's ki until he transforms until Super Saiyan Blue so he wasn't using it to fight Frieza.

Actually I don't think "Beyond God" have the "I can't sense his ki" characteristic. The form looks more like when Goku merged the godly ki with his own after he loses SS God.

Also, I don't remember anything in the movie about they not sensing Goku's power while he was using Beyond God.

[PFM18]

Actually I don't think "Beyond God" have the "I can't sense his ki" characteristic. The form looks more like when Goku merged the godly ki with his own after he loses SS God.

We received no indication that Goku had been using God Ki and normal ki in such a way that it was anything other than just his Base form.

Also, I don't remember anything in the movie about they not sensing Goku's power while he was using Beyond God.

They also didn't sense them at all. There wasn't anything about being able to sense them or being unable to sense them. However, the promotional material for the movie describes them as having God Ki in their Base form. In the movie we had no reason to believe they weren't using God Ki when they coined a new name for having God Ki in Base called "Saiyan Beyond God." In super SBG was just retconned because they never had God Ki in their base.

Nope.

E45 pretty much confirmed base Vegeta isn't dimensions apart from SS3 Gotenks. At best I would say the are on Buuhan's level.

So the fact that Base Vegeta didn't.....beat SSJ3 Gotenks bad enough is your confirmation?

So Goku's current strength as a Super Saiyan is demonstrably below Ultimate Gohan from the Boo arc.

Nah, SSJ post-ritual was already stated to be as strong as BoG SSG multiple times.

[SSJgogeto]

We don't know that, actually. We don't have a definitive argument to determine that, just speculations, so in the end everyone have his headcanon, at least for now.

[PFM18]

We don't know that, actually. We don't have a definitive argument to determine that, just speculations, so in the end everyone have his headcanon, at least for now.

don't know what? I don't know what you mean by "that"

It's very clear, there's no head canon required. Goku adapted to and made the level of power of his SSG form his own, and so his SSJ got strong enough to be equal to BoG SSG. Goku got a power boost. That's it. This series is simple, anything further than that isn't needed. He didn't mix God Ki and normal ki, he didn't achieve a new Base form that had God Ki, he didn't suddenly lose the ability to use SSG, and he didn't somehow "absorb it into his Base" so his Base was stronger than SSG now.

[ZombieVito]

So the fact that Base Vegeta didn't.....beat SSJ3 Gotenks bad enough is your confirmation?

Yes. Gotenks lasted the whole fusion and Commeson Vegeta wanted to kill him.

[PFM18]

So the fact that Base Vegeta didn't.....beat SSJ3 Gotenks bad enough is your confirmation?

Yes. Gotenks lasted the whole fusion and Commeson Vegeta wanted to kill him.

Gotenks was completely and totally dominated. He couldn't so much as budge Vegeta in the slightest, Vegeta got kicked in the face and didn't move at all, and even smiled. It was made very clear that they aren't even mildly close in power.

[SSJgogeto]

don't know what? I don't know what you mean by "that"

Sorry, I was talking about this:

They also didn't sense them at all. There wasn't anything about being able to sense them or being unable to sense them. However, the promotional material for the movie describes them as having God Ki in their Base form. In the movie we had no reason to believe they weren't using God Ki when they coined a new name for having God Ki in Base called "Saiyan Beyond God." In super SBG was just retconned because they never had God Ki in their base.

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It's very clear, there's no head canon required. Goku adapted to and made the level of power of his SSG form his own, and so his SSJ got strong enough to be equal to BoG SSG. Goku got a power boost. That's it. This series is simple, anything further than that isn't needed. He didn't mix God Ki and normal ki, he didn't achieve a new Base form that had God Ki, he didn't suddenly lose the ability to use SSG, and he didn't somehow "absorb it into his Base" so his Base was stronger than SSG now.

Disagreed. Like I said before Super isn't very clear, so we have several possible interpretations for what was shown. That's one of them, and I have one of the others (IMO his base form now is just more or less the same as his base form in the beginning of Super, for example).

[PFM18]

Disagreed. Like I said before Super isn't very clear, so we have several possible interpretations for what was shown. That's one of them, and I have one of the others (IMO his base form now is just more or less the same as his base form in the beginning of Super, for example).

It is very explicitly explained. Goku was as strong as a Super Saiyan God as a SSJ by adapting to the power and making it his own. The story goes out of it's way to explain this explicitly multiple different ways. Nothing else. No mention of any of these other convoluted other theories, nor were they hinted at in any capacity.

[Tectorman]

1) We already know that retaining SSJG's power doesn't necessarily equate to retaining the "undetectable by non-deities" aspect. In the series, Goku fought Beerus as a "Super Saiyan Beyond God" (whether temporary or permanent) with all the power his SSJG form had had, and his friends were able to sense him. It therefore follows that if Super Saiyan Beyond God can have SSJG's power while still being able to be sensed by non-deities, then Saiyan Beyond God can also be at that level of power while still being able to be sensed by non-deities.

2) In the movie, Goku did retain a significant bulk of SSJG's power when he fought Beerus as a Saiyan Beyond God (whether temporary or permanent). We know this because he had just told Beerus he was using 80% of SSJG's power when he dropped out of the form. And in the subsequent continuation of their fight, he didn't notice. He didn't suddenly think "Hey, what happened? I just got way weaker" or "Beerus suddenly sky-rocketed". He went from using 80% SSJG to (from his perspective) still using 80% SSJG (even though he was a SbG instead) to powering up more (from his perspective, he probably thought he'd gone to 100% SSJG when he'd actually gone to SSbG instead). It wasn't until Beerus pointed out that he wasn't a SSJG before that he knew.

3) Goku no longer uses the Kaioken as a regular Saiyan. He uses it instead to power up his SSB form, but not his regular form. But no one says that he doesn't have the ability to use Kaioken in Base, we just acknowledge that it's still there and simply not used. So why is there this insistence that SbG is not only something that he no longer uses but is still there, but something that he never had in the first place? It's like saying that Goku can't use the "Rock-Paper-Scissors Fist" since he hasn't used it since the 21st WMAT.

[PFM18]

1) We already know that retaining SSJG's power doesn't necessarily equate to retaining the "undetectable by non-deities" aspect. In the series, Goku fought Beerus as a "Super Saiyan Beyond God" (whether temporary or permanent) with all the power his SSJG form had had, and his friends were able to sense him. It therefore follows that if Super Saiyan Beyond God can have SSJG's power while still being able to be sensed by non-deities, then Saiyan Beyond God can also be at that level of power while still being able to be sensed by non-deities.

retaining the power of SSG is something entirely different from "Saiyan Beyond God" and "Super Saiyan Beyond God" is just something you made up and was never officially recognized. He was using normal ki and that was explained.

The "Saiyan Beyond God" that was officially recognized was explained to be achieved in their time training with Whis and was defined by "using god power without changing form." Since "ki" and "power" are essentially interchangeable terms, considering that "power level" literally just refers to a numerical readout of ki, this was referring to God Ki. But Goku and Vegeta were sensed in their Base form, and so it is clear that this is longer applies from the movie.

3) Goku no longer uses the Kaioken as a regular Saiyan. He uses it instead to power up his SSB form, but not his regular form. But no one says that he doesn't have the ability to use Kaioken in Base, we just acknowledge that it's still there and simply not used. So why is there this insistence that SbG is not only something that he no longer uses but is still there, but something that he never had in the first place? It's like saying that Goku can't use the "Rock-Paper-Scissors Fist" since he hasn't used it since the 21st WMAT.

Goku never had a "Saiyan Beyond God" state in the first place in Super. If it wasn't for the RoF movie, we wouldn't be having this conversation because people never would have been given any reason to believe that there was a normal state different than Base that used God Ki. That was in the RoF movie, and we receive no indication of it's existence in Super.

Kaioken isn't analogous. False Super Saiyan would be a more accurate example. If people assumed that Goku could use False Super Saiyan up until he had actual SSJ, but just chose not to, despite that only appearing in another continuity.

[ZombieVito]

Gotenks was completely and totally dominated. He couldn't so much as budge Vegeta in the slightest, Vegeta got kicked in the face and didn't move at all, and even smiled. It was made very clear that they aren't even mildly close in power.

I never said they were close in power.

[SSJgogeto]

Disagreed. Like I said before Super isn't very clear, so we have several possible interpretations for what was shown. That's one of them, and I have one of the others (IMO his base form now is just more or less the same as his base form in the beginning of Super, for example).

It is very explicitly explained. Goku was as strong as a Super Saiyan God as a SSJ by adapting to the power and making it his own.

Yeah, but like I said in other topic, Beerus also said "God’s crimson radiance still burns inside you like a flame". And we have different interpretations about this speech of him.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Actually I don't think "Beyond God" have the "I can't sense his ki" characteristic. The form looks more like when Goku merged the godly ki with his own after he loses SS God.

We received no indication that Goku had been using God Ki and normal ki in such a way that it was anything other than just his Base form.

Also, I don't remember anything in the movie about they not sensing Goku's power while he was using Beyond God.

They also didn't sense them at all. There wasn't anything about being able to sense them or being unable to sense them. However, the promotional material for the movie describes them as having God Ki in their Base form. In the movie we had no reason to believe they weren't using God Ki when they coined a new name for having God Ki in Base called "Saiyan Beyond God." In super SBG was just retconned because they never had God Ki in their base.

Nope.

E45 pretty much confirmed base Vegeta isn't dimensions apart from SS3 Gotenks. At best I would say the are on Buuhan's level.

So the fact that Base Vegeta didn't.....beat SSJ3 Gotenks bad enough is your confirmation?

So Goku's current strength as a Super Saiyan is demonstrably below Ultimate Gohan from the Boo arc.

Nah, SSJ post-ritual was already stated to be as strong as BoG SSG multiple times.

Yeah, during BOG. BOG SSJ is stated to be at the level of the Gods and the current SSJ is stated to not be. You were corrected on this multiple times.

[PFM18]

Actually I don't think "Beyond God" have the "I can't sense his ki" characteristic. The form looks more like when Goku merged the godly ki with his own after he loses SS God.

We received no indication that Goku had been using God Ki and normal ki in such a way that it was anything other than just his Base form.

Also, I don't remember anything in the movie about they not sensing Goku's power while he was using Beyond God.

They also didn't sense them at all. There wasn't anything about being able to sense them or being unable to sense them. However, the promotional material for the movie describes them as having God Ki in their Base form. In the movie we had no reason to believe they weren't using God Ki when they coined a new name for having God Ki in Base called "Saiyan Beyond God." In super SBG was just retconned because they never had God Ki in their base.

Nope.

E45 pretty much confirmed base Vegeta isn't dimensions apart from SS3 Gotenks. At best I would say the are on Buuhan's level.

So the fact that Base Vegeta didn't.....beat SSJ3 Gotenks bad enough is your confirmation?

So Goku's current strength as a Super Saiyan is demonstrably below Ultimate Gohan from the Boo arc.

Nah, SSJ post-ritual was already stated to be as strong as BoG SSG multiple times.

Yeah, during BOG. BOG SSJ is stated to be at the level of the Gods and the current SSJ is stated to not be. You were corrected on this multiple times.

lol "you were corrected multiple times"

I wasnt corrected as much as people have just explained their head canon about a retcon to me. So sorry for "being corrected" but then not changing my opinion.

Also, what you said is factually incorrect. there was no statement that current SSJ is not at the level of the gods.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

We received no indication that Goku had been using God Ki and normal ki in such a way that it was anything other than just his Base form.


They also didn't sense them at all. There wasn't anything about being able to sense them or being unable to sense them. However, the promotional material for the movie describes them as having God Ki in their Base form. In the movie we had no reason to believe they weren't using God Ki when they coined a new name for having God Ki in Base called "Saiyan Beyond God." In super SBG was just retconned because they never had God Ki in their base.



So the fact that Base Vegeta didn't.....beat SSJ3 Gotenks bad enough is your confirmation?



Nah, SSJ post-ritual was already stated to be as strong as BoG SSG multiple times.

Yeah, during BOG. BOG SSJ is stated to be at the level of the Gods and the current SSJ is stated to not be. You were corrected on this multiple times.

lol "you were corrected multiple times"

I wasnt corrected as much as people have just explained their head canon about a retcon to me. So sorry for "being corrected" but then not changing my opinion.

Also, what you said is factually incorrect. there was no statement that current SSJ is not at the level of the gods.

Stated during the exhibition match. Again, not going to spoonfeed you. SSJ in one instance is stated to be at one level, then it's stated to not be at that level it was stated at prior in another. Not only was this difference stated, it was demonstrated. Your unwillingness to accept that isn't relevant.

[PFM18]

Yeah, during BOG. BOG SSJ is stated to be at the level of the Gods and the current SSJ is stated to not be. You were corrected on this multiple times.

lol "you were corrected multiple times"

I wasnt corrected as much as people have just explained their head canon about a retcon to me. So sorry for "being corrected" but then not changing my opinion.

Also, what you said is factually incorrect. there was no statement that current SSJ is not at the level of the gods.

Stated during the exhibition match. Again, not going to spoonfeed you. SSJ in one instance is stated to be at one level, then it's stated to not be at that level it was stated at prior in another. Not only was this difference stated, it was demonstrated. Your unwillingness to accept that isn't relevant.

You can call it spoonfeeding or otherwise, but you're still mistaken. In the Exhibition Match it was not explicitly stated that SSJ was not at the level of the Gods. That's factually incorrect.

[Saturnine]

PFM has very strong opinions on this, but I agree with what Kaboom said 100%, that was short and to the point. Option B for me too. Some more observations of my own:
- "Saiyan Beyond God" was not meant to have godly ki in base, only the same powerlevel as SSj God in base. Goku's ki was possible to sense at least in the RoF anime (that I'm sure of), and probably in the movie too. The state with actual god ki after assimilating SSj God was only ever meant to be SSj Blue.
- I always saw the anime's decision to use SSj Goku instead of base Goku in the fight with Beerus as nothing more than an aesthetic decision. Suggesting that his absorbed SSj God power made his SSj permanently equal to SSj God, and therefore by extension his base 50x weaker than SSj God suggests an implication that the powerup from dropping out of SSj God was immediately absorbed and fully assimilated by Goku. Instead, the show as well as the movies gave us hints that the only form that can multiply godly ki is SSj Blue.
- There are out-of-universe considerations too. The Potaufeu arc to me is a clear demonstration of attempting to bring back the SbG tier of power, which is inconsistent with what comes afterwards - what I personally read from it is improper communication between the writers of the anime. Future Trunks didn't get so much more powerful that Goku would need SSj3 to gain an edge over him, if he could completely murk SSj3 Gotenks with just his base form. Cry "headcanon" all you want, but "in your heart, you know it to be true". Future Trunks was never said to even approach the realm of gods, so base Goku should have been more than enough to mop the floor with him. He wasn't. Super is inconsistent.
- Believing that SSj Goku = SSjG Goku = 50x base Goku ever since the BoG arc, in all instances, is as much of a headcanon as anything else in fact. So stop acting hostile and one-track just because your pet theory is coming under fire, PFM.

[PFM18]

PFM has very strong opinions on this,

Eh, yeah I do. Oh well. Also, interesting how you mention my name twice but don't bother actually quoting or tagging me.

I think strongly on it because it is an extremely important plot element that people apparently get confused by at an alarming rate.

- "Saiyan Beyond God" was not meant to have godly ki in base, only the same powerlevel as SSj God in base. Goku's ki was possible to sense at least in the RoF anime (that I'm sure of), and probably in the movie too. The state with actual god ki after assimilating SSj God was only ever meant to be SSj Blue.

False. "Saiyan Beyond God" was described in promotional material as being "the power of a God without changing form!" considering that the terms "power" and "ki" are interchangeable terms given that "power level" is just a numerical readout of the ki output, this is clearly referring to God Ki. And the "without changing form" is important because before he had to change form to use God Ki.

- I always saw the anime's decision to use SSj Goku instead of base Goku in the fight with Beerus as nothing more than an aesthetic decision. Suggesting that his absorbed SSj God power made his SSj permanently equal to SSj God, and therefore by extension his base 50x weaker than SSj God suggests an implication that the powerup from dropping out of SSj God was immediately absorbed and fully assimilated by Goku. Instead, the show as well as the movies gave us hints that the only form that can multiply godly ki is SSj Blue.

I have no idea what head canon you're trying to cook up, but nobody claimed Goku was using God Ki as a SSJ during BoG and that this would imply multiplying God Ki. It was explicitly stated that he DID have normal ki(and therefore not God KI) during this time.

Also, I never said it was "permanently equal to SSG" because he was stated to surpass SSG in SSJ in that very battle so that obviously isn't the case. It just pulled his power up in such a way that his SSJ had become as strong as SSG.

-

There are out-of-universe considerations too. The Potaufeu arc to me is a clear demonstration of attempting to bring back the SbG tier of power, which is inconsistent with what comes afterwards - what I personally read from it is improper communication between the writers of the anime. Future Trunks didn't get so much more powerful that Goku would need SSj3 to gain an edge over him, if he could completely murk SSj3 Gotenks with just his base form. Cry "headcanon" all you want, but "in your heart, you know it to be true". Future Trunks was never said to even approach the realm of gods, so base Goku should have been more than enough to mop the floor with him. He wasn't. Super is inconsistent

Goku's Base had consistently been portrayed as being that strong, and even after that point as well. During the ToP arc, despite prior to BoG his Base being weaker than Namek Freeza he was very impressed with Buu being able to train to get strong enough to compete with his Base form. Obviously, this would make no sense if this were to be retconned.

You're just speculating about the writer's intentions and nothing more.
.

- Believing that SSj Goku = SSjG Goku = 50x base Goku ever since the BoG arc, in all instances, is as much of a headcanon as anything else in fact.

Not really. It's just going by the explicit statements we have. Goku assimilated the power and had been equal to SSG while being a SSJ, Beerus explains why this is the case, and Goku confirms he didn't lose any power. It is very simple, and we are never given any indication that this has changed. Nothing.

[Saturnine]

False. "Saiyan Beyond God" was described in promotional material as being "the power of a God without changing form!" considering that the terms "power" and "ki" are interchangeable terms given that "power level" is just a numerical readout of the ki output, this is clearly referring to God Ki. And the "without changing form" is important because before he had to change form to use God Ki.

I have no idea what head canon you're trying to cook up, but nobody claimed Goku was using God Ki as a SSJ during BoG and that this would imply multiplying God Ki. It was explicitly stated that he DID have normal ki(and therefore not God KI) during this time.

Soooooo, basically you're saying that absorbing the power of SSj God can both give you god ki and ... not give you god ki? You yourself postulate that SSj Goku had the power of SSj God, so you clearly understand the difference between just power and the nature of ki. Goku in the anime during his fight against Freeza was possible to sense in his base form, yet also mentioned to be "stronger than ever" by Roshi (or one of the other guys, can't remember exactly). Are you going to ignore that statement too?

Not really. It's just going by the explicit statements we have. Goku assimilated the power and had been equal to SSG while being a SSJ, Beerus explains why this is the case, and Goku confirms he didn't lose any power. It is very simple, and we are never given any indication that this has changed. Nothing.

Yeah, neither are we given any corroboration of this either. That's because the writers tried to silently and imperceptibly back out of this to save face - which turned out to be less than subtle in the end.

[PFM18]

Soooooo, basically you're saying that absorbing the power of SSj God can both give you god ki and ... not give you god ki?

Nope, not at all. Goku literally just made that power his own by experiencing it/adapting to it. It was established that he still used normal ki though. There was no God Ki involved.

Goku in the anime during his fight against Freeza was possible to sense in his base form,

That's what I've been saying. Goku NEVER had God Ki outside of his actual God forms, so there's no reason to think a retcon exists to reconcile that.

yet also mentioned to be "stronger than ever" by Roshi (or one of the other guys, can't remember exactly)

Nope. That was a mistranslation of the dialogue from Kururin. The official translations say nothing of the sort though.

Are you going to ignore that statement too?

I don't ignore any statements.

Yeah, neither are we given any corroboration of this either. That's because the writers tried to silently and imperceptibly back out of this to save face - which turned out to be less than subtle in the end.

Yeah we are. Goku does several things throughout Super that would very clearly be impossible if that power increase from BoG was not left intact.