Question about SSJ4 and Golden Oozaru

[Apslup]

I can't get my head around how Golden Oozaru can be attained by any Super Saiyan with a tail and is supposedly more powerful than SSJ3, which requires years of intense training in order to achieve (along with having an emotional reaction strong enough to achieve SSJ2).

I don't understand how something so powerful could be achieved so easily! If Vegeta had somehow kept his tail and attained SSJ, he could use the Power Ball and be the strongest person on Earth with Golden Oozaru! It may also mean that someone could achieve SSJ4 without attaining SSJ2 or 3! Can I get some clarification on this because this just seems too broken to be real.

[p-hyvo]

no saiyan known that, beacause no saiyan wan capable to go ssj at that time. for them, the oozaru was the most powerful form. in ssj's times, the tail was cosidered useless, because ssj gave a more stable and controllable power output, so no one ever combined that on free will. even for gt Goku, ssj4 was a random luck while facing baby

[theherodjl]

SSJ4 is unobtainable until a Golden Oozaru is capable of regaining their heart & reason, two things that nearly all of the Saiyans of Planet Vegeta lacked. Even Vegeta at that time, the only known Saiyan able to remain in his normal mind while as an Oozaru, would not have achieve SSJ4 after going Golden Oozaru because he lacked a (relatively)peaceful heart. There's also the fact that an Oozaru cannot stay as an Oozaru the moment that its trigger disappears such as the moon disappearing from observable view or the artificial moon running out of power. There's just too many things that would prevent SSJ4 from being obtained at such early moments of the series.

[Lukmendes]

SSJ4 is unobtainable until a Golden Oozaru is capable of regaining their heart & reason, two things that nearly all of the Saiyans of Planet Vegeta lacked. Even Vegeta at that time, the only known Saiyan able to remain in his normal mind while as an Oozaru, would not have achieve SSJ4 after going Golden Oozaru because he lacked a (relatively)peaceful heart. There's also the fact that an Oozaru cannot stay as an Oozaru the moment that its trigger disappears such as the moon disappearing from observable view or the artificial moon running out of power. There's just too many things that would prevent SSJ4 from being obtained at such early moments of the series.

SS4 seemed to be obtained by simply being able to think while in Oozaru form, something Goku could only do by remembering Earth, only reason why Baby wasn't able to do it was because him being in Vegeta's body interfered with that... Somehow.

Either way, as far as we've seen, no one had SS and a tail at the same time, so golden Oozaru and SS4 not being reached by anyone is fair.

[theherodjl]

SS4 seemed to be obtained by simply being able to think while in Oozaru form, something Goku could only do by remembering Earth, only reason why Baby wasn't able to do it was because him being in Vegeta's body interfered with that... Somehow.

Either way, as far as we've seen, no one had SS and a tail at the same time, so golden Oozaru and SS4 not being reached by anyone is fair.

It failed because Baby didn't have a pure heart. He was born of Tsurufurian rage & lived for vengeance. He had neither the naive purity of Goku or the will to change to being good as Vegeta did. The pure heart requirement comes from the GT Perfect Files on SSJ4's description.

[ankokudaishogun]

SS4 seemed to be obtained by simply being able to think while in Oozaru form, something Goku could only do by remembering Earth, only reason why Baby wasn't able to do it was because him being in Vegeta's body interfered with that... Somehow.

Either way, as far as we've seen, no one had SS and a tail at the same time, so golden Oozaru and SS4 not being reached by anyone is fair.

It failed because Baby didn't have a pure heart. He was born of Tsurufurian rage & lived for vengeance. He had neither the naive purity of Goku or the will to change to being good as Vegeta did. The pure heart requirement comes from the GT Perfect Files on SSJ4's description.

Base SS also requires being pure of heart.... being purely evil is enough.

Most likely he didn't transform because he was controlling Vegeta's body "externally" de facto bypassing whatever neural connection usually necessary to trigger the SS4 transformation


Question: does the Heroes arcade story explain how Gohan got SS4?
SS4 Bardock was just a "warrior that shouldn't exists", Zen-chan knows what that does mean

[Lukmendes]

SS4 seemed to be obtained by simply being able to think while in Oozaru form, something Goku could only do by remembering Earth, only reason why Baby wasn't able to do it was because him being in Vegeta's body interfered with that... Somehow.

Either way, as far as we've seen, no one had SS and a tail at the same time, so golden Oozaru and SS4 not being reached by anyone is fair.

It failed because Baby didn't have a pure heart. He was born of Tsurufurian rage & lived for vengeance. He had neither the naive purity of Goku or the will to change to being good as Vegeta did. The pure heart requirement comes from the GT Perfect Files on SSJ4's description.

That's contradictory, when Bulma and Vegeta talk about it in GT's episode 55, the only requirement is to be able to keep their rationality as golden Oozaru, and Bulma specificaly says that Baby couldn't go SS4 only because his own cells interfered somehow, dunno why they decided to throw in the pure heart thing and dismiss the anime itself lol.

[sunsetshimmer]

I can't get my head around how Golden Oozaru can be attained by any Super Saiyan with a tail and is supposedly more powerful than SSJ3, which requires years of intense training in order to achieve (along with having an emotional reaction strong enough to achieve SSJ2).

SSJ2 and SSJ3 are forced improvements of SSJ forms, while Golden Oozaru is more like natural form.
They just picked the harder way to get stronger by improving SSJ.

I don't understand how something so powerful could be achieved so easily! If Vegeta had somehow kept his tail and attained SSJ, he could use the Power Ball and be the strongest person on Earth with Golden Oozaru! It may also mean that someone could achieve SSJ4 without attaining SSJ2 or 3! Can I get some clarification on this because this just seems too broken to be real.

Bulma clearly said that Vegeta wouldn't be able to achieve SSJ4 before GT since he was too weak anyway. He would just turn Golden Oozaru at best.
So yes, he would be strongest if he went Golden Oozaru in Z, but they didn't know about its existence just like Saiyans apparently didn't know about God and didn't use it to defend their planet and kill Frieza. And honestly, no one would probably think about going Oozaru when they had much more powerful and a lot faster SSJ form.

Also, it's still harder to reach than SSJ God that didn't have ANY requirements from host yet is also more powerful than SSJ3.

And you don't need SSJ2 or 3 to reach SSJ4. It's a retarded name that doesn't make any sense. SSJ4 is not related to SSJ2 and SSJ3 in any way.

[Saturnine]

Bulma clearly said that Vegeta wouldn't be able to achieve SSJ4 before GT since he was too weak anyway. He would just turn Golden Oozaru at best.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought SSj4 didn't exist even as a remote concept "before GT". Which makes me suspicious that you're referring to some Toei dub line or something.

[sunsetshimmer]

Bulma clearly said that Vegeta wouldn't be able to achieve SSJ4 before GT since he was too weak anyway. He would just turn Golden Oozaru at best.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought SSj4 didn't exist even as a remote concept "before GT". Which makes me suspicious that you're referring to some Toei dub line or something.

I wouldn't refer to english dub, especially when talking about GT.
What i meant is that in GT Vegeta asked Bulma why he never turned SSJ4 before now since he can control Oozaru anyway and Bulma said he didn't have enough training back then but he should be able to go SSJ4 now and probably already could in Baby saga if it wasn't for Baby's cells in his body that somehow blocked transformation stopping at Golden Oozaru.

[Hulk10]

As I recall Bulma only theorized that Vegeta wasn't strong enough to become an SSJ4.

[Kaboom]

Wasn't it said in some official capacity that a Saiyan's tail actually stops growing back after Super Saiyan, because their body has evolved to no longer need it? On a biological level I'm sure those mysterious "S-Cells" have something to do with it too, where maybe having a high count of them inhibits tail regrowth.

Any way you slice it, rather than being "easy" it would actually be pretty rare for a Saiyan to meet the physical conditions for Super Saiyan 4.

[Hulk10]

Wasn't it said in some official capacity that a Saiyan's tail actually stops growing back after Super Saiyan, because their body has evolved to no longer need it? On a biological level I'm sure those mysterious "S-Cells" have something to do with it too, where maybe having a high count of them inhibits tail regrowth.

Any way you slice it, rather than being "easy" it would actually be pretty rare for a Saiyan to meet the physical conditions for Super Saiyan 4.

It was specifically said that a Saiyan's tail stops regrowing once a Saiyan reaches a certain level of power because the body 'feels' complete without it.

[Lukmendes]

As I recall Bulma only theorized that Vegeta wasn't strong enough to become an SSJ4.

Specificaly it was because he lacked training.

It's weird though, they never say it's because he lacked SS back then, since I always assumed that golden Oozaru is just a super saiyan oozaru, but Vegeta wondering why he couldn't go golden Oozaru back in saiyan saga and no one even suggesting that oozaru was in super saiyan form makes me doubt that... Anyways, back to the point, it was just the lack of training that was suggested, and saiyans never really trained, so them not finding out about SS4 is fair.

Wasn't it said in some official capacity that a Saiyan's tail actually stops growing back after Super Saiyan, because their body has evolved to no longer need it? On a biological level I'm sure those mysterious "S-Cells" have something to do with it too, where maybe having a high count of them inhibits tail regrowth.

Any way you slice it, rather than being "easy" it would actually be pretty rare for a Saiyan to meet the physical conditions for Super Saiyan 4.

Honestly, it'd be contradictory for a body to no longer need a tail in GT setting, since SS4 is the strongest transformation, and it can only be obtained because of the tail, so maybe that info and shit like S-cells don't apply to GT.

[Hulk10]

As I recall Bulma only theorized that Vegeta wasn't strong enough to become an SSJ4.

Specificaly it was because he lacked training.

It's weird though, they never say it's because he lacked SS back then, since I always assumed that golden Oozaru is just a super saiyan oozaru, but Vegeta wondering why he couldn't go golden Oozaru back in saiyan saga and no one even suggesting that oozaru was in super saiyan form makes me doubt that... Anyways, back to the point, it was just the lack of training that was suggested, and saiyans never really trained, so them not finding out about SS4 is fair.

Wasn't it said in some official capacity that a Saiyan's tail actually stops growing back after Super Saiyan, because their body has evolved to no longer need it? On a biological level I'm sure those mysterious "S-Cells" have something to do with it too, where maybe having a high count of them inhibits tail regrowth.

Any way you slice it, rather than being "easy" it would actually be pretty rare for a Saiyan to meet the physical conditions for Super Saiyan 4.

Honestly, it'd be contradictory for a body to no longer need a tail in GT setting, since SS4 is the strongest transformation, and it can only be obtained because of the tail, so maybe that info and shit like S-cells don't apply to GT.

I don't recall that, she said when Vegeta went Golden Oozaru he should have been able to transform into a SSJ4, and they run through theories, one he might not be strong enough, or it could be because of the Tuffle Parasite.

[p-hyvo]

Bulma clearly said that Vegeta wouldn't be able to achieve SSJ4 before GT since he was too weak anyway. He would just turn Golden Oozaru at best.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought SSj4 didn't exist even as a remote concept "before GT". Which makes me suspicious that you're referring to some Toei dub line or something.

I wouldn't refer to english dub, especially when talking about GT.
What i meant is that in GT Vegeta asked Bulma why he never turned SSJ4 before now since he can control Oozaru anyway and Bulma said he didn't have enough training back then but he should be able to go SSJ4 now and probably already could in Baby saga if it wasn't for Baby's cells in his body that somehow blocked transformation stopping at Golden Oozaru.

Vegeta never had the possibility to go ssj4 before. I didn't became one in baby saga because it wasn't he controlling is body, but baby did. Vegeta was an inconcious host for baby and the tuffle moved him around

[Lukmendes]

I don't recall that, she said when Vegeta went Golden Oozaru he should have been able to transform into a SSJ4, and they run through theories, one he might not be strong enough, or it could be because of the Tuffle Parasite.

Vegeta wonders why he couldn't go SS4 when Baby was controlling his body and Bulma says that Baby's own cells were interfering. When Vegeta wonders why he couldn't go SS4 back in saiyan saga and before, Bulma theorizes it's because he lacked training, so it was both of the things you mentioned.

Again, they could've just said that Vegeta couldn't go SS4 in saiyan saga times 'cause golden oozary is just oozaru super saiyan, it'd be really simple like that lol.

[Hulk10]

I don't recall that, she said when Vegeta went Golden Oozaru he should have been able to transform into a SSJ4, and they run through theories, one he might not be strong enough, or it could be because of the Tuffle Parasite.

Vegeta wonders why he couldn't go SS4 when Baby was controlling his body and Bulma says that Baby's own cells were interfering. When Vegeta wonders why he couldn't go SS4 back in saiyan saga and before, Bulma theorizes it's because he lacked training, so it was both of the things you mentioned.

Again, they could've just said that Vegeta couldn't go SS4 in saiyan saga times 'cause golden oozary is just oozaru super saiyan, it'd be really simple like that lol.

True.

[DanielSSJ]

Wasn't it said in some official capacity that a Saiyan's tail actually stops growing back after Super Saiyan, because their body has evolved to no longer need it? On a biological level I'm sure those mysterious "S-Cells" have something to do with it too, where maybe having a high count of them inhibits tail regrowth.

Any way you slice it, rather than being "easy" it would actually be pretty rare for a Saiyan to meet the physical conditions for Super Saiyan 4.

Here's the exact quote, from a 2003 interview:

The tail lets you gain tremendous strength instantly by transforming into a giant ape, but the risks are equally great–you’ll lose your strength if it’s squeezed. Once you’re as powerful as Vegeta and Goku, the tail just gets in the way. It is thought that the bodies of Saiyans, who are a fighting species, decided that their tails are unnecessary appendages.

The weird thing is that Toriyama specifically cites the whole "tail weakness" thing as a reason for why they stopped growing back, despite the fact that both Goku and Vegeta overcame that vulnerability through training.

[Lukmendes]

The weird thing is that Toriyama specifically cites the whole "tail weakness" thing as a reason for why they stopped growing back, despite the fact that both Goku and Vegeta overcame that vulnerability through training.

He probably forgot lol.