Would SSJ3 Vegetto Have Been Enough To Challenge Beerus On Kaio's Planet?

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Re: Would SSJ3 Vegetto Have Been Enough To Challenge Beerus On Kaio's Planet?

Post by PFM18 » Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:24 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:Last time I watched Battle Of Gods, Goku said that even if he and Vegeta it wouldn't be enough to defeat Beerus.
I think ya forgot a certain word in there...

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Re: Would SSJ3 Vegetto Have Been Enough To Challenge Beerus On Kaio's Planet?

Post by Lord Beerus » Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:28 pm

PFM18 wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:Last time I watched Battle Of Gods, Goku said that even if he and Vegeta it wouldn't be enough to defeat Beerus.
I think ya forgot a certain word in there...
Oops.

I've gone back and edited my comment.

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Re: Would SSJ3 Vegetto Have Been Enough To Challenge Beerus On Kaio's Planet?

Post by Darkprince410 » Mon Nov 12, 2018 7:27 pm

Rakurai wrote: Taking absence of evidence as evidence is ridiculous. It is YOUR job to prove he could use SSJ3, either by databook statements, series logic, or some other official indication that Vegetto could access SSJ3.

The examples (SSJ4 Gogeta, SSB Vegetto, SSJ2 Kefla) I listed clearly prove that the logic in the series is if two people have the transformation, then the fusion can use it. You cannot extrapolate beyond that.

And just to be clear. I am not saying that Vegetto cannot achieve SSJ3 like Gotenks did. I am saying that Buu saga/BoG Vegetto being able to use SSJ3 right off the bat is headcanon.
It's been shown full well that fusions has access to skills that just one of the constituent fighters have, and there's no evidence whatsoever that techniques work differently than transformations when it comes to what a fused individual has access to. Vegeta is even of the exact same species as Goku, so jumping to the notion of it working differently cause it's a biological change is unreasonable, because Vegeta had the exact same capacity, due to also being a Saiyan. You might have some weight to the argument if it was a fusion of two different species, but in this case it's two of the exact same species.

Again, it is your head canon that Vegetto couldn't, because it is your head canon, unsubstantiated by anything shown within the franchise, that fusions cannot access forms natively unless both individuals have it. So you're arguing head canon with head canon.

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Re: Would SSJ3 Vegetto Have Been Enough To Challenge Beerus On Kaio's Planet?

Post by Rakurai » Mon Nov 12, 2018 9:52 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:Last time I watched Battle Of Gods, Goku said that even if he and Vegeta fused it wouldn't be enough to defeat Beerus.

So... no. SSJ3 Vegetto wouldn't have been enough.
And there is no proof Vegetto could use it to begin with.
Darkprince410 wrote:Again, it is your head canon that Vegetto couldn't, because it is your head canon, unsubstantiated by anything shown within the franchise, that fusions cannot access forms natively unless both individuals have it. So you're arguing head canon with head canon.
I am not assuming anything out of thin air. At the very least we can agree BoG Vegetto has SSJ. If I claim Vegetto could have access to SSJ2, it's through fusion logic because other fusions like Kefla could access SSJ2 and both of her counterparts had it. Kefla started off with SSJ and ramped it up to SSJ2.

But Vegetto could go SSJ3 is headcanon because we have not seen it and it is unsupported by fusion logic as far as we've seen. If Goku & Gohan were to fuse, you cannot assume that Gohanku would be able to access SSG/B.
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Re: Would SSJ3 Vegetto Have Been Enough To Challenge Beerus On Kaio's Planet?

Post by goku the krump dancer » Tue Nov 13, 2018 2:18 am

Rakurai wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:Last time I watched Battle Of Gods, Goku said that even if he and Vegeta fused it wouldn't be enough to defeat Beerus.

So... no. SSJ3 Vegetto wouldn't have been enough.
And there is no proof Vegetto could use it to begin with.
Darkprince410 wrote:Again, it is your head canon that Vegetto couldn't, because it is your head canon, unsubstantiated by anything shown within the franchise, that fusions cannot access forms natively unless both individuals have it. So you're arguing head canon with head canon.
I am not assuming anything out of thin air. At the very least we can agree BoG Vegetto has SSJ. If I claim Vegetto could have access to SSJ2, it's through fusion logic because other fusions like Kefla could access SSJ2 and both of her counterparts had it. Kefla started off with SSJ and ramped it up to SSJ2.

But Vegetto could go SSJ3 is headcanon because we have not seen it and it is unsupported by fusion logic as far as we've seen. If Goku & Gohan were to fuse, you cannot assume that Gohanku would be able to access SSG/B.
This logic makes things needlessly complicated. You probably dont like the idea of Beerus taking out SS3 Vegetto but hey, it is what it is. It seems like you''re really going out of your way to convince yourself that something would hypothetically happen they way you want, which means nothing at the end of the day.
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Re: Would SSJ3 Vegetto Have Been Enough To Challenge Beerus On Kaio's Planet?

Post by Darkprince410 » Tue Nov 13, 2018 7:01 am

Rakurai wrote:
Darkprince410 wrote:Again, it is your head canon that Vegetto couldn't, because it is your head canon, unsubstantiated by anything shown within the franchise, that fusions cannot access forms natively unless both individuals have it. So you're arguing head canon with head canon.
I am not assuming anything out of thin air. At the very least we can agree BoG Vegetto has SSJ. If I claim Vegetto could have access to SSJ2, it's through fusion logic because other fusions like Kefla could access SSJ2 and both of her counterparts had it. Kefla started off with SSJ and ramped it up to SSJ2.

But Vegetto could go SSJ3 is headcanon because we have not seen it and it is unsupported by fusion logic as far as we've seen. If Goku & Gohan were to fuse, you cannot assume that Gohanku would be able to access SSG/B.
Yet absolutely nothing about "fusion logic" denies it either. If anything, what we've seen with fusions supports it given the aforementioned techniques being accessible to the fused being when only one side has it normally. It is still your head canon, through and through, that fusions can't initially access forms that only one individual of the two have, because there is nothing denying it either. If there was anything, literally anything denying or indicating it's not possible, that'd be one thing, but there isn't. Vegetto, during the Buu arc, was the only fusion we've had so far where one of the individuals was capable of a higher form than the other, and he chose not to go higher than Super Saiyan because it was unnecessary. There is nothing in that appearance at all that indicates or even suggests that he wasn't capable of 3, nor is there anything regarding the known rules about fusion that say that it's not possible for him to have had 3 either.

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Re: Would SSJ3 Vegetto Have Been Enough To Challenge Beerus On Kaio's Planet?

Post by Rakurai » Tue Nov 13, 2018 12:38 pm

goku the krump dancer wrote:
This logic makes things needlessly complicated. You probably dont like the idea of Beerus taking out SS3 Vegetto but hey, it is what it is. It seems like you''re really going out of your way to convince yourself that something would hypothetically happen they way you want, which means nothing at the end of the day.
I already said that I think Beerus defeats a hypothetical SSJ3 Vegetto.

The context of the response you quoted is to whether Z Vegetto has access SSJ3. Which is not supported by anything, series logic or guidebook statements.

Maybe you don't like the idea of SSJ3 Vegetto trumping SSG Goku. But hey, it is what it is right?
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Re: Would SSJ3 Vegetto Have Been Enough To Challenge Beerus On Kaio's Planet?

Post by goku the krump dancer » Tue Nov 13, 2018 1:45 pm

Rakurai wrote:
goku the krump dancer wrote:
This logic makes things needlessly complicated. You probably dont like the idea of Beerus taking out SS3 Vegetto but hey, it is what it is. It seems like you''re really going out of your way to convince yourself that something would hypothetically happen they way you want, which means nothing at the end of the day.
I already said that I think Beerus defeats a hypothetical SSJ3 Vegetto.

The context of the response you quoted is to whether Z Vegetto has access SSJ3. Which is not supported by anything, series logic or guidebook statements.
If you believe that Beerus would beat SS3 Vegetto then why go through this crazy run around theory that Vegetto probably doesnt have the form at all? Doesnt make any sense. So by your logic Vegetto can do SS1,2, God and Blue but level 3? he still has to train for that! :? Not really adding up here.
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Re: Would SSJ3 Vegetto Have Been Enough To Challenge Beerus On Kaio's Planet?

Post by Rakurai » Tue Nov 13, 2018 2:53 pm

goku the krump dancer wrote: If you believe that Beerus would beat SS3 Vegetto then why go through this crazy run around theory that Vegetto probably doesnt have the form at all? Doesnt make any sense. So by your logic Vegetto can do SS1,2, God and Blue but level 3? he still has to train for that! :? Not really adding up here.
I was giving my opinion on the matter of a hypothetical situation. Because BoG SSJ3 Vegetto is headcanon, and is not implied by the series.

My logic is that the fusion can use transformations which only their counterparts both have access to. This is how the series logic goes. Vegeta has never shown the ability to go SSJ3, ergo you cannot assume he has it or that Vegetto has it.
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Re: Would SSJ3 Vegetto Have Been Enough To Challenge Beerus On Kaio's Planet?

Post by ankokudaishogun » Tue Nov 13, 2018 4:40 pm

Rakurai wrote:My logic is that the fusion can use transformations which only their counterparts both have access to.
Fusion Dance don't.

Also, with a strong enough body and knowing how to correctly manipulate their Ki, any Saiyan could go SS3. It's not a MUTATION. It's a MODIFIED SS TRANSFORMATION.
No doubt Vegetto had the body and the knowledge.

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Re: Would SSJ3 Vegetto Have Been Enough To Challenge Beerus On Kaio's Planet?

Post by Darkprince410 » Tue Nov 13, 2018 4:56 pm

Rakurai wrote:
goku the krump dancer wrote: If you believe that Beerus would beat SS3 Vegetto then why go through this crazy run around theory that Vegetto probably doesnt have the form at all? Doesnt make any sense. So by your logic Vegetto can do SS1,2, God and Blue but level 3? he still has to train for that! :? Not really adding up here.
My logic is that the fusion can use transformations which only their counterparts both have access to. This is how the series logic goes. Vegeta has never shown the ability to go SSJ3, ergo you cannot assume he has it or that Vegetto has it.
Again though, that just falls into what is your head canon. There is no series logic saying or even suggesting that both need to have a transformation for the resulting fusion to also have that transformation right off the bat. Vegetto, during the Buu arc, is the only time when we've had two characters go into the fusion without both having the strongest form between them at the time, so the only information that can even be gleaned on the subject at all could only come from his appearance then. We can't pull from Gotenks. We can't pull from Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta. We can't pull from Kafla. We can't pull from Vegetto's appearance in Super. We can't pull from Zamasu. We can only, only pull from Vegetto's appearance in Z, and in that situation it's a moot point because he didn't have to transform into anything above regular Super Saiyan.

I ask you this. Is there anything out there actually saying that fusions don't naturally have access to transformations that only one of the two constituent fighters has? I'm not meaning just the lack of there being anything saying that one does, but anything actually saying or otherwise clearly indicating that they cannot? Unless this were the case, that there was something out there that says that they don't, then it is your head canon that they don't, because there is nothing within the manga, anime, or databooks that says that it isn't possible.

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Re: Would SSJ3 Vegetto Have Been Enough To Challenge Beerus On Kaio's Planet?

Post by Rakurai » Tue Nov 13, 2018 11:18 pm

Darkprince410 wrote:
Rakurai wrote:
goku the krump dancer wrote: If you believe that Beerus would beat SS3 Vegetto then why go through this crazy run around theory that Vegetto probably doesnt have the form at all? Doesnt make any sense. So by your logic Vegetto can do SS1,2, God and Blue but level 3? he still has to train for that! :? Not really adding up here.
My logic is that the fusion can use transformations which only their counterparts both have access to. This is how the series logic goes. Vegeta has never shown the ability to go SSJ3, ergo you cannot assume he has it or that Vegetto has it.
Again though, that just falls into what is your head canon. There is no series logic saying or even suggesting that both need to have a transformation for the resulting fusion to also have that transformation right off the bat. Vegetto, during the Buu arc, is the only time when we've had two characters go into the fusion without both having the strongest form between them at the time, so the only information that can even be gleaned on the subject at all could only come from his appearance then. We can't pull from Gotenks. We can't pull from Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta. We can't pull from Kafla. We can't pull from Vegetto's appearance in Super. We can't pull from Zamasu. We can only, only pull from Vegetto's appearance in Z, and in that situation it's a moot point because he didn't have to transform into anything above regular Super Saiyan.

I ask you this. Is there anything out there actually saying that fusions don't naturally have access to transformations that only one of the two constituent fighters has? I'm not meaning just the lack of there being anything saying that one does, but anything actually saying or otherwise clearly indicating that they cannot? Unless this were the case, that there was something out there that says that they don't, then it is your head canon that they don't, because there is nothing within the manga, anime, or databooks that says that it isn't possible.
I will repeat this. There is nothing in the databooks or series that imply Vegetto could go SSJ3. He has not shown us this. So the logical conclusion is that he can't right off the bat until otherwise proven. Because by your reasoning there is nothing that suggests Vegeta doesn't have SSJ3 at this point since he's gone to transformations above it so it's totally possible Vegeta could already do it. I don't use or buy that kind of reasoning.

"Is there anything out there actually saying that fusions don't naturally have access to transformations that only one of the two constituent fighters has? " Let's take a look at the other fusion example you mentioned, Merged Zamasu. Merged Zamasu didn't ever go SSRose or even SSJ. He isn't even considered to be in a constant SSRose state. The best we can do to extrapolate some kind of SSJ3 Vegetto is SSJ3 Goku & Vegeta fusing resulting in some pseudo-SSJ3 form. But that would not technically be SSJ3 since again Merged Zamasu isn't considered to be in a constant SSRose state.

All the fusion evidence so far goes against the idea of SSJ3 Vegetto being a thing.
ankokudaishogun wrote:
Rakurai wrote:My logic is that the fusion can use transformations which only their counterparts both have access to.
Fusion Dance don't.

Also, with a strong enough body and knowing how to correctly manipulate their Ki, any Saiyan could go SS3. It's not a MUTATION. It's a MODIFIED SS TRANSFORMATION.
No doubt Vegetto had the body and the knowledge.
By TRAINING. Z Vegetto didn't have that kind of luxury.

Mutation vs modified SSJ transformation? This is only semantics, it has no meaning or relevance with regards to the mechanics of fusion.
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Re: Would SSJ3 Vegetto Have Been Enough To Challenge Beerus On Kaio's Planet?

Post by Darkprince410 » Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:51 am

Rakurai wrote:
I will repeat this. There is nothing in the databooks or series that imply Vegetto could go SSJ3. He has not shown us this. So the logical conclusion is that he can't right off the bat until otherwise proven. Because by your reasoning there is nothing that suggests Vegeta doesn't have SSJ3 at this point since he's gone to transformations above it so it's totally possible Vegeta could already do it. I don't use or buy that kind of reasoning.

"Is there anything out there actually saying that fusions don't naturally have access to transformations that only one of the two constituent fighters has? " Let's take a look at the other fusion example you mentioned, Merged Zamasu. Merged Zamasu didn't ever go SSRose or even SSJ. He isn't even considered to be in a constant SSRose state. The best we can do to extrapolate some kind of SSJ3 Vegetto is SSJ3 Goku & Vegeta fusing resulting in some pseudo-SSJ3 form. But that would not technically be SSJ3 since again Merged Zamasu isn't considered to be in a constant SSRose state.

All the fusion evidence so far goes against the idea of SSJ3 Vegetto being a thing.
And I will repeat this, nothing in the databooks, manga, or anime state or imply that he couldn't either. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, so saying that he can't do it because there's no evidence saying one way or another whether he's capable of it is your personal head canon. It is your interpreting of the information (and lack thereof) available to us. That's it. Additionally, my reasoning does not apply to Vegeta because neither God nor Blue are the next stages in the Super Saiyan line. Super Saiyan 3 is the end all, as far as we know, of that particular line, with Super Saiyan God being its own line and then Blue being connected between God and Super Saiyan.

Not sure where you're coming from with the Zamasu not being considered in a constant Rose state, as he generally is considered to be by all. His hair, for example, only works in appearance if it's Black's Rose form in combination with Zamasu's hair. Likewise, remember, we're told by Rou Kaioushin that when you fuse while in a transformed state, you are permanently in that state, so merged Zamasu was in a transformed state.

If you want more evidence to the idea that Vegetto could, look at the hypothetical Goku + Gohan fusion during the Buu arc. Gohan is not able to transform into a Super Saiyan while in his Ultimate form, yet Rou Kaioushin indicates that their fusion would be able to transform into one after they merged (though he felt they wouldn't need it). So there, you have only one individual of the two fusing with the capacity to transform into a Super Saiyan (Gohan knowing how to is a moot point while being in his Ultimate form), with Rou Kaioushin saying they can transform after fusing.
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Re: Would SSJ3 Vegetto Have Been Enough To Challenge Beerus On Kaio's Planet?

Post by Cursed Lemon » Thu Nov 15, 2018 11:59 am

None of the fusions had to train to hit SSJ. This pretty much proves that fusions can natively achieve what their constituent individuals are capable of doing, while the precedent remains that training done in fusion really only benefits the fused fighter.

Now whether or not EoZ Vegetto could hit SSJ3 is debateable - Goku had SSJ3 while Vegeta only had SSJ2.
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Re: Would SSJ3 Vegetto Have Been Enough To Challenge Beerus On Kaio's Planet?

Post by mikey4111 » Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:20 pm

Yes. Kale > SSG Goku. And SSG Goku was enough to challenge Beerus.

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Re: Would SSJ3 Vegetto Have Been Enough To Challenge Beerus On Kaio's Planet?

Post by ankokudaishogun » Thu Nov 15, 2018 3:05 pm

Cursed Lemon wrote:None of the fusions had to train to hit SSJ. This pretty much proves that fusions can natively achieve what their constituent individuals are capable of doing, while the precedent remains that training done in fusion really only benefits the fused fighter.

Now whether or not EoZ Vegetto could hit SSJ3 is debateable - Goku had SSJ3 while Vegeta only had SSJ2.
Neither Goten or Trunks had SS3, but Gotenks did.

So, either Potara and Fusion Dance work differently in that aspect(fair, given they have a numver of difference) or there is no reason to believe Vegetto couldn't use SS3

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Re: Would SSJ3 Vegetto Have Been Enough To Challenge Beerus On Kaio's Planet?

Post by Cursed Lemon » Thu Nov 15, 2018 4:31 pm

ankokudaishogun wrote: Neither Goten or Trunks had SS3, but Gotenks did.

So, either Potara and Fusion Dance work differently in that aspect(fair, given they have a numver of difference) or there is no reason to believe Vegetto couldn't use SS3
Gotenks, Gogeta, and Vegetto all could go SSJ in their sleep, and that's most likely because all of the fusion members of those pairings could do exactly that on their own. Meanwhile, Gotenks could only go SSJ3 because Goten and Trunks specifically trained to do so while fused (the mechanics of that are certainly up for debate).

It's not clear whether or not Vegetto could go SSJ3 without training if Vegeta couldn't achieve the form on his own. What we don't have any reason to doubt, though, is whether Vegetto could've used SSJ2, unless one wants to get reeeaaaal anal about transformation requirements - and some people definitely do.
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Re: Would SSJ3 Vegetto Have Been Enough To Challenge Beerus On Kaio's Planet?

Post by Miracles » Thu Nov 15, 2018 4:48 pm

No way. If SSJG was no match for Beerus, no form of Vegetto would of been.

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Re: Would SSJ3 Vegetto Have Been Enough To Challenge Beerus On Kaio's Planet?

Post by Rakurai » Thu Nov 15, 2018 5:33 pm

Darkprince410 wrote:
And I will repeat this, nothing in the databooks, manga, or anime state or imply that he couldn't either. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, so saying that he can't do it because there's no evidence saying one way or another whether he's capable of it is your personal head canon. It is your interpreting of the information (and lack thereof) available to us. That's it. Additionally, my reasoning does not apply to Vegeta because neither God nor Blue are the next stages in the Super Saiyan line. Super Saiyan 3 is the end all, as far as we know, of that particular line, with Super Saiyan God being its own line and then Blue being connected between God and Super Saiyan.

Not sure where you're coming from with the Zamasu not being considered in a constant Rose state, as he generally is considered to be by all. His hair, for example, only works in appearance if it's Black's Rose form in combination with Zamasu's hair. Likewise, remember, we're told by Rou Kaioushin that when you fuse while in a transformed state, you are permanently in that state, so merged Zamasu was in a transformed state.

If you want more evidence to the idea that Vegetto could, look at the hypothetical Goku + Gohan fusion during the Buu arc. Gohan is not able to transform into a Super Saiyan while in his Ultimate form, yet Rou Kaioushin indicates that their fusion would be able to transform into one after they merged (though he felt they wouldn't need it). So there, you have only one individual of the two fusing with the capacity to transform into a Super Saiyan (Gohan knowing how to is a moot point while being in his Ultimate form), with Rou Kaioushin saying they can transform after fusing.
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Bullshit. Ultimate Gohan is either him in his natural state or a transformation in DBS, depending on which medium you refer to (manga or anime). In the BoG film, he was fighting in his Ultimate form and could still go SSJ. So your point is moot, and hypothetical Gokuhan does not support the SSJ3 Vegetto headcanon. Elder Kai knows that they could both transform but he didn't think very highly of it.
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Re: Would SSJ3 Vegetto Have Been Enough To Challenge Beerus On Kaio's Planet?

Post by Darkprince410 » Fri Nov 16, 2018 12:33 am

Rakurai wrote: Bullshit. Ultimate Gohan is either him in his natural state or a transformation in DBS, depending on which medium you refer to (manga or anime). In the BoG film, he was fighting in his Ultimate form and could still go SSJ. So your point is moot, and hypothetical Gokuhan does not support the SSJ3 Vegetto headcanon. Elder Kai knows that they could both transform but he didn't think very highly of it.
It's a permanent transformed state when it's first introduced, and Gohan is not physically capable of transforming into a Super Saiyan while in his Ultimate form. In BoG and onward, it's treated as a form he can transform into, but that's not how it was when it was first introduced. At no point, at all, does he ever combine his Ultimate form (either its initial permanent state or the revised version of it being its own transformation) with his Super Saiyan form, even in circumstances when his life could have depended on it if he had the capacity to (like his fight against Gotenks Buu).

So at the time of the hypothetical, you have Gohan in a state where he physically, and permanently, cannot transform into Super Saiyan combining with someone that can, and Rou Kaioushin still said they'd be able to. So that is a perfect counter to your argument. Combine that with the skills carrying over even if only one person knows them, and you have two aspects supporting it vs. nothing contradicting it.

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