[Movie spoilers ITT] Power of Saiyan fusions

[RecolorSaiyan]

Before we get this started, I'd like to acknowledge the "power levels are bs". "There are no formulas/math in DB" "As strong as the plot needs them to be"

Now that this is out of the way, lets talk about how strong fusions are/can be. I think 2 very compatible fighters (close in power + strong bond] result in

Base forms of fusion > max power of fusees


There is some evidence that would suggest this to be the case


base vegito (z) was > ssj3 goku by the daizenshuu and going by the anime, he was atleast buuhan tier but thats filler so i will ignore it

base vegito (manga black arc) easily shot off m zamasu's body and this is BEFORE he took a senzu. Plus m zamasu thought he was a new transformation altogether.

Base kefla (anime ToP) easily clobbered ssg goku when ssj2 kale and ssj2 caulifla combined couldn't do shit. She even slapped away a ki blast of his like it was a tiny fly.

m20 base gogeta, going by the many synopsis i have read, he performed much better vs ssj broly than ssb goku and ssb vegeta did as a team against him and that was an hour before and he presumably increased his strength over that time.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Don't forget Base Gotenks caused a bigger reaction to everyone than the SSJ Kids and he's implied to be even stronger than SSJ2 level.

It's literally stated by Goku that base fusion > highest power of fuser as well.

Context: after Goku laments that Gohan and Vegeta are dead
Goku: “I coulda used Fusion…”
Dende: “Fusion…! Merging together, right? That’s the specialty art of the people of Planet Metamor!”
Goku: “So you know about it, Dende…! That’s right, some people from Metamor who I met in the afterlife taught me that art…It’s a merging technique which can only be performed if two people are fairly close in both power and body size…In other words, by having two people merge into one, they’re able to become a single, new human with amazing power which either of them on their own absolutely wouldn’t be capable of. It really is incredible! Those two from Metamor were completely weak and gentle on their own, but by using Fusion they transformed into a substantial warrior! [ ] …I was just taught the art, but I ain’t never tested it out…There wasn’t anybody on par with me in the afterlife…”

[PFM18]

In other words, by having two people merge into one, they’re able to become a single, new human with amazing power which either of them on their own absolutely wouldn’t be capable of. It really is incredible!

He doesn't specifically say that the Base fusion is stronger than anything that the individuals would be capable of. He is just stating the obvious that the fusion is stronger than the fusees.

[Kataphrut]

I still don't get why we're acting like any of this is new. The fusions that matter (meaning everyone who isn't named Kibito Kai) have always been exceptionally powerful. Once you accept that Buu-saga Vegetto probably was stronger than BoG SSG Goku after all (shut up, he might as well have been), everything after that falls perfectly into place.

[Polyphase Avatron]

Don't forget Base Gotenks caused a bigger reaction to everyone than the SSJ Kids and he's implied to be even stronger than SSJ2 level.

It's literally stated by Goku that base fusion > highest power of fuser as well.

Context: after Goku laments that Gohan and Vegeta are dead
Goku: “I coulda used Fusion…”
Dende: “Fusion…! Merging together, right? That’s the specialty art of the people of Planet Metamor!”
Goku: “So you know about it, Dende…! That’s right, some people from Metamor who I met in the afterlife taught me that art…It’s a merging technique which can only be performed if two people are fairly close in both power and body size…In other words, by having two people merge into one, they’re able to become a single, new human with amazing power which either of them on their own absolutely wouldn’t be capable of. It really is incredible! Those two from Metamor were completely weak and gentle on their own, but by using Fusion they transformed into a substantial warrior! [ ] …I was just taught the art, but I ain’t never tested it out…There wasn’t anybody on par with me in the afterlife…”

That last part of the quote seems like evidence that Paikuhan can't possibly be canon.

[PFM18]

Once you accept that Buu-saga Vegetto probably was stronger than BoG SSG Goku after all (shut up, he might as well have been), everything after that falls perfectly into place.

Why should we feel compared to accept that?

[GreatSaiyaman123]

In other words, by having two people merge into one, they’re able to become a single, new human with amazing power which either of them on their own absolutely wouldn’t be capable of. It really is incredible!

He doesn't specifically say that the Base fusion is stronger than anything that the individuals would be capable of. He is just stating the obvious that the fusion is stronger than the fusees.

What naturally includes base fusion, no?

That last part of the quote seems like evidence that Paikuhan can't possibly be canon.

Not like anything says he is anyway.

Once you accept that Buu-saga Vegetto probably was stronger than BoG SSG Goku after all (shut up, he might as well have been), everything after that falls perfectly into place.

You would need some amount of baseless speculation to reach that conclusion, so not really.

[PFM18]

What naturally includes base fusion, no?

No? Why would that be a natural assumption at all?

[Berserker1921]

I think we all know that Vegito and Gogeta are strong because of the rival boost that come with Goku and Vegeta merging. But I have to wonder, what about a friendship or companion boost? I mean it could explain Kefla’s and Gotenks massive power. If you ignore plot stuff. Maybe a friendship or companion boosts gives its own advantages maybe not as powerful the rival boosts. But it would explain a lot.

Also this is head canon, no facts to back it. But my opinion. I personally think Broly and Gogeta aren’t stronger than ToP MUI Goku or LB Jiren. Personally I have it like this.
LB Jiren>SsjBlue Gogeta
100% Jiren>Full power Broly.
GoD Toppo>Ssj Broly

From what I heard from spoilers this can possibly be the reason.

[Kataphrut]

Once you accept that Buu-saga Vegetto probably was stronger than BoG SSG Goku after all (shut up, he might as well have been), everything after that falls perfectly into place.

Why should we feel compared to accept that?

Kefla beating up SSG Goku in a scenario virtually identical to Vegetto vs Buuhan was what got me on that thought-train. Afterwards, you think back on everything that came before and how powerful Vegetto and Buuhan were in comparison to everyone else in Z and it's not hard to give some wiggle room. Early on they were trying to push the idea that god ki made Goku and Vegeta a million billion times stronger than anything that came before, but they smartly started walking that back in Super. If Freeza could do it in four months, no reason other mortal characters couldn't. Gohan was also to get himself up to God level as well without much hubbub and the last time he was that strong he was still considerably weaker than Vegetto during the same arc.

[Tsufuru]

I still don't get why we're acting like any of this is new. The fusions that matter (meaning everyone who isn't named Kibito Kai) have always been exceptionally powerful. Once you accept that Buu-saga Vegetto probably was stronger than BoG SSG Goku after all (shut up, he might as well have been), everything after that falls perfectly into place.

since when is buu saga vegetto multi galaxy-universal level?

[Tsufuru]

Once you accept that Buu-saga Vegetto probably was stronger than BoG SSG Goku after all (shut up, he might as well have been), everything after that falls perfectly into place.

Why should we feel compared to accept that?

Kefla beating up SSG Goku in a scenario virtually identical to Vegetto vs Buuhan was what got me on that thought-train. Afterwards, you think back on everything that came before and how powerful Vegetto and Buuhan were in comparison to everyone else in Z and it's not hard to give some wiggle room. Early on they were trying to push the idea that god ki made Goku and Vegeta a million billion times stronger than anything that came before, but they smartly started walking that back in Super. If Freeza could do it in four months, no reason other mortal characters couldn't. Gohan was also to get himself up to God level as well without much hubbub and the last time he was that strong he was still considerably weaker than Vegetto during the same arc.

gohan in super is way stronger than his buu arc self what you talking about?

[PFM18]

Why should we feel compared to accept that?

Kefla beating up SSG Goku in a scenario virtually identical to Vegetto vs Buuhan was what got me on that thought-train. Afterwards, you think back on everything that came before and how powerful Vegetto and Buuhan were in comparison to everyone else in Z and it's not hard to give some wiggle room. Early on they were trying to push the idea that god ki made Goku and Vegeta a million billion times stronger than anything that came before, but they smartly started walking that back in Super. If Freeza could do it in four months, no reason other mortal characters couldn't. Gohan was also to get himself up to God level as well without much hubbub and the last time he was that strong he was still considerably weaker than Vegetto during the same arc.

gohan in super is way stronger than his buu arc self what you talking about?

Nobody said otherwise?

[Kataphrut]

I still don't get why we're acting like any of this is new. The fusions that matter (meaning everyone who isn't named Kibito Kai) have always been exceptionally powerful. Once you accept that Buu-saga Vegetto probably was stronger than BoG SSG Goku after all (shut up, he might as well have been), everything after that falls perfectly into place.

since when is buu saga vegetto multi galaxy-universal level?

Ok, so remember when SSG Goku and Beerus were destroying the universe with their punches and everybody took it to mean SSG Goku was Universal? Of course you don't, it was the TV version of Battle of Gods. But if you did, you'll remember that Buu and Vegetto already did that during their fight. Or rather, Buu was able to rip apart the universe to escape the Time Chamber, did it again while fighting Vegetto, who stopped it (admittedly, I can't remember if the second time was filler or not- either way, Buu can definitely do it) and even with Gohan and everyone absorbed, he was still no match for Vegetto, who wasn't fighting seriously at all. So it's safe to say if Super Buu was universal at his best, so was Vegetto. Or at least, there's so much wiggle room he might as well be. If he could dominate the strongest version of a character who could rend space with a shout, without even going Super Saiyan 2, let alone 3, then I reckon he could probably handle the likes of Golden Freeza.

[Polyphase Avatron]

I still don't get why we're acting like any of this is new. The fusions that matter (meaning everyone who isn't named Kibito Kai) have always been exceptionally powerful. Once you accept that Buu-saga Vegetto probably was stronger than BoG SSG Goku after all (shut up, he might as well have been), everything after that falls perfectly into place.

since when is buu saga vegetto multi galaxy-universal level?

Ok, so remember when SSG Goku and Beerus were destroying the universe with their punches and everybody took it to mean SSG Goku was Universal? Of course you don't, it was the TV version of Battle of Gods. But if you did, you'll remember that Buu and Vegetto already did that during their fight. Or rather, Buu was able to rip apart the universe to escape the Time Chamber, did it again while fighting Vegetto, who stopped it (admittedly, I can't remember if the second time was filler or not- either way, Buu can definitely do it) and even with Gohan and everyone absorbed, he was still no match for Vegetto, who wasn't fighting seriously at all. So it's safe to say if Super Buu was universal at his best, so was Vegetto. Or at least, there's so much wiggle room he might as well be. If he could dominate the strongest version of a character who could rend space with a shout, without even going Super Saiyan 2, let alone 3, then I reckon he could probably handle the likes of Golden Freeza.

I really think that opening small holes between dimensions isn't at all comparable to threatening to wipe out everything in the universe.

[Tsufuru]

I still don't get why we're acting like any of this is new. The fusions that matter (meaning everyone who isn't named Kibito Kai) have always been exceptionally powerful. Once you accept that Buu-saga Vegetto probably was stronger than BoG SSG Goku after all (shut up, he might as well have been), everything after that falls perfectly into place.

since when is buu saga vegetto multi galaxy-universal level?

Ok, so remember when SSG Goku and Beerus were destroying the universe with their punches and everybody took it to mean SSG Goku was Universal? Of course you don't, it was the TV version of Battle of Gods. But if you did, you'll remember that Buu and Vegetto already did that during their fight. Or rather, Buu was able to rip apart the universe to escape the Time Chamber, did it again while fighting Vegetto, who stopped it (admittedly, I can't remember if the second time was filler or not- either way, Buu can definitely do it) and even with Gohan and everyone absorbed, he was still no match for Vegetto, who wasn't fighting seriously at all. So it's safe to say if Super Buu was universal at his best, so was Vegetto. Or at least, there's so much wiggle room he might as well be. If he could dominate the strongest version of a character who could rend space with a shout, without even going Super Saiyan 2, let alone 3, then I reckon he could probably handle the likes of Golden Freeza.

universel level>>>>>>what buu and gotenks did.
dbz anime filler =/= dbs anime and it happened in the dbs manga anyways.
we have for the first time both statement and feats for something.
they told and showed us ssg > vegetto.
if buu is universal than he needs to be literaly BILLIONS AND BILLIONS of times stronger than kid buu and ssj3.
so you want to tell me ultimate gohan gave him such a boost?
since we know absorbing just gives him the power of the absorbed person which means you implie normal super is billions of times stronger than ssj3 goku.
the thing is even if we go by your anime filler logic that still makes ssg > vegetto since we are told not even vegetto might beat beerus who was using less power than vs ssg btw.
so yh , filler or not it doesnt matter.

[WittyUsername]

I don’t think I’m ready for all the power scaling debates that the upcoming movie will apparently inspire. There’s going to be a lot of “Gogeta vs Beerus” and “Gogeta vs Jiren” debates, aren’t there?

[PFM18]

I don’t think I’m ready for all the power scaling debates that the upcoming movie will apparently inspire. There’s going to be a lot of “Gogeta vs Beerus” and “Gogeta vs Jiren” debates, aren’t there?

Yup. Without a doubt you'll see that

[ZombieVito]

I actually wondered this today.

If all the Saiyans fusion have a base stronger than the fusees max power output at the time then where does that leave Gotenks?

As with Vegetto, Gotenks also gets a power statement in the Daizenshuu books:

In order to defeat Majin Buu, who boasted absolute strength, Goku taught Fusion to Goten and Trunks as a last resort, and thus Gotenks was born. After several failures, they finally succeeded in merging together. The two entered the Room of Spirit and Time, and hurriedly trained as Gotenks. As a result, Gotenks leveled up so much that his strength surpassed Vegeta and the others. However, they were taken in by Buu, who had powered up by absorbing the good portion of himself.

This means that the first time Gotenks appears as a Super Saiyan, he was weaker than Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta which makes his base very weak. Weaker than 18 in fact but now with the movie it seems that the info on the Daizenshuu has been retconned? Maybe their fusion is weaker because they are kids?

Thoughts?

[TobyS]

I actually wondered this today.

If all the Saiyans fusion have a base stronger than the fusees max power output at the time then where does that leave Gotenks?

As with Vegetto, Gotenks also gets a power statement in the Daizenshuu books:

In order to defeat Majin Buu, who boasted absolute strength, Goku taught Fusion to Goten and Trunks as a last resort, and thus Gotenks was born. After several failures, they finally succeeded in merging together. The two entered the Room of Spirit and Time, and hurriedly trained as Gotenks. As a result, Gotenks leveled up so much that his strength surpassed Vegeta and the others. However, they were taken in by Buu, who had powered up by absorbing the good portion of himself.

This means that the first time Gotenks appears as a Super Saiyan, he was weaker than Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta which makes his base very weak. Weaker than 18 in fact but now with the movie it seems that the info on the Daizenshuu has been retconned? Maybe their fusion is weaker because they are kids?

Thoughts?

What, 18 is below ss1 Vegeta at this point. The wording of vegeta and the others is weird, I take it to mean anyone living/anyone weaker than Goku. Or vegeta and the others combined, he doesn't have to be weaker than Vegeta OR the others.

Regardless I'm in the camp of the SS kids being weaker than 18 so first base Gotenks being stronger then ss trunks pre and still weaker than 18 is possible although I don't go for it.