How Would ToP Krillin, Tenshinhan, and Roshi Have Fared In DBZ?

[PFM18]

Why do you say that?

Not sure about the Anime, but the Manga has Roshi taking on Kahseral (Whose power is in Base Goku's league) and he implies he could've held his own with Frost as well. I just figure out Kuririn and Tenshinhan shouldn't fall that far behind from Roshi in terms of skill.

There's also the Roshi vs Jiren thing. Manga Roshi seems to be above them yeah. That makes sense.

[Onikage725]

It was very clearly referring to a Base form with God Ki. That name was re-used in a game years late.r

I disagree with your opinion about power meaning "literally using God ki." But even if Super counts as a retcon, I kinda feel that's moot. In Super they still attained God-like strength as mortals, with the show going to lengths to show HOW they did through training while also being clear they dont use God ki in base. The showings against strong opponents are still there. Goku vs Freeza, Goku vs Caulifla SSJ, Goku vs Buu, Goku vs Copy Vegeta who was himself shown to be laughably above SSJ3 Gotenks. A number of others across the anime and manga, some I noted in previous posts. The anime says he more or less owns the God power even as a full mortal who can be sensed, and after training he is easily shown to be wayyyy above Buu Saga (and DBS) SSJ3 tiers in his base form.

As what was being discussed was how Roshi scales compared to Goku, and the refutation as you've seen was partly on the claim that Goku's base was weak, whether or not he is literally using God ki in base doesn't mean much. But I also dont think it's well supported if all we have is a promo making an imication vs the more canon rendition of the events expressly stating otherwise.

Why do you say that?

Not sure about the Anime, but the Manga has Roshi taking on Kahseral (Whose power is in Base Goku's league) and he implies he could've held his own with Frost as well. I just figure out Kuririn and Tenshinhan shouldn't fall that far behind from Roshi in terms of skill.

In the anime he did briefly push Frost. He wasn't really a match for him, but he was exhausted from combat and massive power use plus I think two mafubas. So he was almost on deaths for, and him being able to budge Frost is a small miracle lol. He also whupped on Ganos. Hard to say exactly how strong Ganos was. But he was the MVP for U4, and was stated to be a potential problem for Goku with his accelerated power growth (like a mid battle Zenkai ability). So I'm not really sure how to properly scale him lol. He did seem decently durable against base Goku and in the manga resisting Kale"s power.

[PFM18]

I disagree with your opinion about power meaning "literally using God ki." But even if Super counts as a retcon, I kinda feel that's moot. In Super they still attained God-like strength as mortals, with the show going to lengths to show HOW they did through training while also being clear they dont use God ki in base. The showings against strong opponents are still there. Goku vs Freeza, Goku vs Caulifla SSJ, Goku vs Buu, Goku vs Copy Vegeta who was himself shown to be laughably above SSJ3 Gotenks. A number of others across the anime and manga, some I noted in previous posts. The anime says he more or less owns the God power even as a full mortal who can be sensed, and after training he is easily shown to be wayyyy above Buu Saga (and DBS) SSJ3 tiers in his base form.

I'm with you on their Base forms being really strong. Of course. I was just disputing that their Base forms were actually stronger than BoG SSG, not that it was extremely powerful. I also wanted to clarify that the only real implication that their Base was stronger than SSG was in the movie when they had God Ki in Base, which is clearly no longer the case in Super itself.

Obviously Base Goku>>>>>Buu arc SSJ3 Goku/Gotenks.

[Onikage725]

]
I'm with you on their Base forms being really strong. Of course. I was just disputing that their Base forms were actually stronger than BoG SSG, not that it was extremely powerful. I also wanted to clarify that the only real implication that their Base was stronger than SSG was in the movie when they had God Ki in Base, which is clearly no longer the case in Super itself.

Obviously Base Goku>>>>>Buu arc SSJ3 Goku/Gotenks.

Yea I wouldnt make a direct claim on HOW strong they are in base, exactly, because Super's low and mid-level scaling tiers are an absolute cluster

[SSJgogeto]

Yup, but there's distinct explanations to each one of this examples.

Not really sure what you're getting at.

Look, rewatch the Whis training mini arc. They are training in base. Vegeta states the weighted suit is more intense than Bulma's latest gravity chamber.

There is NO rational logic to assume after intense training plus learning precise control to minimize loss of power, that their power in base would be static. And that was the initial training. They both train throughout the series. And Vegeta has a couple RoSaT stints as well.

That's why I said "IMO Goku's base form from Super is more or less the same from Buu saga". I think he and Vegeta are stronger, but I don't think the difference in powers between before and now is so large.

[Onikage725]

Yup, but there's distinct explanations to each one of this examples.

Not really sure what you're getting at.

Look, rewatch the Whis training mini arc. They are training in base. Vegeta states the weighted suit is more intense than Bulma's latest gravity chamber.

There is NO rational logic to assume after intense training plus learning precise control to minimize loss of power, that their power in base would be static. And that was the initial training. They both train throughout the series. And Vegeta has a couple RoSaT stints as well.

That's why I said "IMO Goku's base form from Super is more or less the same from Buu saga". I think he and Vegeta are stronger, but I don't think the difference in powers between before and now is so large.

That's just not supported by anything in the series. I mean, I've been listing this stuff for awhile now. But cliffnotes- the Whis training is said by Vegeta to be the most intense he's ever experienced. More so than any gravity chamber he's used. During this, they learn to control their ki to stick a degree that they become somewhere in the weight class that Goku was in as a SSG against Beerus (obviously they're current SSG forms are stronger than their bases, that's why I make the distinction). Goku is able to fight Freeza without transforming. Copy Vegeta tanks SSJ3 Gotenks. I've mentioned a number of these, I don't want to keep repeating lol. But between an elaborate training arc and numerous examples of them fighting characters in the Super Saiyan 3 + realm (in Buu saga terms...including Goku vs Buu himself post-training) while staying in base form, there is no reason to assume they agree equal to Buu Saga base. Goku in base post BoG arc is clearly superior to his own SSJ3 from episode 5!

[SSJgogeto]

Yeah, but there are other scenes. Like, Buu is stronger than Basil, who seems stronger than Vegeta in his base form. There's also Goku vs Great Saiyaman.

IMO their base forms are already in their limit, so they hardly can improve then. However, they can improve their SS forms.

And IMO they used Beyond God in a lot of fights (Goku vs Beerus/Monaka, Vegeta vs Gotenks, Goku vs Golden Freeza, and maybe some other fights).

[zarmack]

Yeah, but there are other scenes. Like, Buu is stronger than Basil, who seems stronger than Vegeta in his base form. There's also Goku vs Great Saiyaman.

IMO their base forms are already in their limit, so they hardly can improve then. However, they can improve their SS forms.

And IMO they used Beyond God in a lot of fights (Goku vs Beerus/Monaka, Vegeta vs Gotenks, Goku vs Golden Freeza, and maybe some other fights).

1. All of that is pure headcanon, not supported by the main series at all.

2. Saiyans have no limits, so claiming that they can't improve their base forms is false by-default (an isn't supported by feats). Also, it makes no sense to say that they can't improve their bases but can improve their transformations, since transformations in DB are just multipliers (the extent of which never changes) of their base power, not fixed/isolated tiers of power. So the only way they can improve their transformations IS by improving their base's power.

2. Saiyan-Beyond God is not a distinct transformation, its just an amp state/level of a Saiyan's base power.

[SSJgogeto]

Not all of that is headcanon, Buu is in fact stronger than Basil for example. Also, like I said before, it's just my opinion about the case. And tecnically we are just comparing headcanons here.

About improving their SS forms: IMO seems like things are more maleable these days. We have Rageta, the theoretical Chou Super Saiyan, and some other unique forms.

And about Beyond God, I disagree. IMO it's just a saiyan who can control perfectly the godly ki inside him.

[PFM18]

Yeah, but there are other scenes. Like, Buu is stronger than Basil, who seems stronger than Vegeta in his base form. There's also Goku vs Great Saiyaman.

IMO their base forms are already in their limit, so they hardly can improve then. However, they can improve their SS forms.

And IMO they used Beyond God in a lot of fights (Goku vs Beerus/Monaka, Vegeta vs Gotenks, Goku vs Golden Freeza, and maybe some other fights).

Basil is definitely not stronger than Base Vegeta. That was made clear. Vegeta openly acknowledges them as trash compared to his Base power but Goku voices concern only because they coordinate themselves well and he can't sense them. Any difficulty they had, while not illustrated perfectly, had nothing to do with power.

Goku was suppressed against Great Saiyaman. He said so himself.

Just head canon.

[SSJgogeto]

Tecnically this isn't right.

Vegeta called them trash, but he does this with a lot of people regardless of their power level. Also, like you said he can't sense them, and in the end he used SS to defeat the team (and the wolfs could still fight for a while).

About Goku being supressed against Great Saiyaman: Gohan said that, and Goku immediately after used SS. Even after that the fight with Gohan was balanced.

[FoolsGil]

The only thing I have to say, is that no one would have died against the Saiyans if Master Roshi wasn't negligent.

[BWri]

I think Super's focus on skill over power, combined with the many powerscaling issues it has, leads people to come up with these crazy ideas. To think that Krillin or Roshi are as strong as even SSJ1 Goku on Namek is silly IMO.

But in-universe that's how powerful they are portrayed as now. Also, Super might have wanted to focus on skill over power, but they are also strongly implied to be way more powerful. Super might have wonky powerscaling, but it is what it is, and that means in-universe that the lower tier gang got massively more powerful really quickly around that period. Especially if you include stuff from the manga like Roshi knowing the bargin bin omen of ultra instinct.

But even in the show it's emphasized that it's not about raw power, for example Roshi saying that Ganos was stronger and faster than him but he couldn't touch him because he lacked the skill and experience.

He then proceeded to overpower him with a kamehameha after stating that Ganos would get strong enough to pose a threat to his teammates if left unchecked. Either Ganos has some Broly levels of potential and strength-gain or he and Roshi are easily already near or above Namek arc Frieza. Ganos would have to be minimum at that level to pose a threat to anyone on the U7 team outside of possibly Tien. And I'm sure the threat Roshi mentioned was in a head-to-head fight, so Ganos would have to be approaching an Android saga level of strength in reality.

[Polyphase Avatron]

Either Ganos has some Broly levels of potential and strength-gain

What's so unbelievable about this option?

[ZombieVito]

But in-universe that's how powerful they are portrayed as now. Also, Super might have wanted to focus on skill over power, but they are also strongly implied to be way more powerful. Super might have wonky powerscaling, but it is what it is, and that means in-universe that the lower tier gang got massively more powerful really quickly around that period. Especially if you include stuff from the manga like Roshi knowing the bargin bin omen of ultra instinct.

But even in the show it's emphasized that it's not about raw power, for example Roshi saying that Ganos was stronger and faster than him but he couldn't touch him because he lacked the skill and experience.

He then proceeded to overpower him with a kamehameha after stating that Ganos would get strong enough to pose a threat to his teammates if left unchecked. Either Ganos has some Broly levels of potential and strength-gain or he and Roshi are easily already near or above Namek arc Frieza. Ganos would have to be minimum at that level to pose a threat to anyone on the U7 team outside of possibly Tien. And I'm sure the threat Roshi mentioned was in a head-to-head fight, so Ganos would have to be approaching an Android saga level of strength in reality.

Well, all three of them are confirmed to be above base Goten and Trunks in an interview so they should be very close to Namek Freeza.

[PFM18]

But even in the show it's emphasized that it's not about raw power, for example Roshi saying that Ganos was stronger and faster than him but he couldn't touch him because he lacked the skill and experience.

He then proceeded to overpower him with a kamehameha after stating that Ganos would get strong enough to pose a threat to his teammates if left unchecked. Either Ganos has some Broly levels of potential and strength-gain or he and Roshi are easily already near or above Namek arc Frieza. Ganos would have to be minimum at that level to pose a threat to anyone on the U7 team outside of possibly Tien. And I'm sure the threat Roshi mentioned was in a head-to-head fight, so Ganos would have to be approaching an Android saga level of strength in reality.

Well, all three of them are confirmed to be above base Goten and Trunks in an interview so they should be very close to Namek Freeza.

Source? The only interview I'm aware of says that they are weaker than SSJ Goten and Trunks. Nothing of them being stronger than Base Goten and Trunks.