Vegetto SS3 BoG < SSJGod < Base Gogeta?

[Miracles]

SSB is demonstrably stronger than SSG, and he's just assuming that it must be at least as strong as SSG, which is undeniably true. That's about as basic of an assumption as possible.

No one is denying the difference between red and blue. Claiming that "nearly to 70%" back in BOG is somehow negated by future events without any time period, power percentage and Beerus full power defined is headcanon. All we know is that all grow due to power inflation. Any specifics on these other than from the story is headcanon.

He just explained how it is impossible to align it with the events. Additionally, it's never even stated in the actual anime/manga themselves, it was just in the movie they had retconned. It was left out for a reason, dude.

The movie was never retconed, that's headcanon. Hugo explained nothing but an assumption. Therefore fiction.

[PFM18]

No one is denying the difference between red and blue. Claiming that "nearly to 70%" back in BOG is somehow negated by future events without any time period, power percentage and Beerus full power defined is headcanon. All we know is that all grow due to power inflation. Any specifics on these other than from the story is headcanon.

He just explained how it is impossible to align it with the events. Additionally, it's never even stated in the actual anime/manga themselves, it was just in the movie they had retconned. It was left out for a reason, dude.

The movie was never retconed, that's headcanon. Hugo explained nothing but an assumption. Therefore fiction.

Why would they create an entire BoG arc if didn't serve to replace the BoG movie? And Hugo explained an extremely basic logical deduction, whatever you want to call it is cool.

[Miracles]

He just explained how it is impossible to align it with the events. Additionally, it's never even stated in the actual anime/manga themselves, it was just in the movie they had retconned. It was left out for a reason, dude.

The movie was never retconed, that's headcanon. Hugo explained nothing but an assumption. Therefore fiction.

Why would they create an entire BoG arc if didn't serve to replace the BoG movie? And Hugo explained an extremely basic logical deduction, whatever you want to call it is cool.

What Hugo stated about the 70% statment is fiction. Nothing contradicts the "nearly 70%" narrative back then later.
Also, it's a fan assumption that the anime replaced BOG when that was never stated anywhere.

[PFM18]

The movie was never retconed, that's headcanon. Hugo explained nothing but an assumption. Therefore fiction.

Why would they create an entire BoG arc if didn't serve to replace the BoG movie? And Hugo explained an extremely basic logical deduction, whatever you want to call it is cool.

What Hugo stated about the 70% statment is fiction. Nothing contradicts the "nearly 70%" narrative back then later.
Also, it's a fan assumption that the anime replaced BOG when that was never stated anywhere.

Okay, so even the most basic of logical deductions are not allowed and we need explicit official statements to deduce anything at all whatsoever? Alright, good to know.

[Bullza]

Like your irrelevant question has no bearing on the story so it's dismissed.

Nah you're in an awkward position. You and I both know that Beerus' power didn't multiple many times over, that much is obvious. You admitting that though then puts you in an even more awkward position where you wouldn't be able to explain why Beerus had to use as much as 70% of his power against Super Saiyan God Goku.

And because you're going off this idea that whatever Toriyama says is absolute and unchanging, then you're not able to. Which is why you're doing everything you can to dodge the question.

Beerus' power was retconned that much is clear to most everyone, something that people accepted all the way back during the Universe 6 saga. So if something Toriyama wrote for a movie no longer holds true then something he said to someone once definitely doesn't account for much at all now.

We know for a fact that Fusion > God now. It's only an assumption to say that God > Fusion back then, one that's likely not the case anymore.

[Hugo Boss]

No, Toriyama's vision isn't outdated cause nothing contradicts it but headcanon. That's what the fandom is doing.

Headcanon doesn’t contradict anything. It’s simply a fan idea that describes which Dragon Ball stories they think are canon. It doesn’t apply to this case.

Anyway, if SSGod has 60% of Beerus’ full power, assume SSBlue has that percentage at minimum. If we multiply that level by 2, it becomes 120%. That would imply, if we go by Toriyama’s vision, that SSBlue only needs 2-fold kaioken to surpass Beerus’s power. During Goku vs. Jiren first match, Whis implies Jiren’s performance is worth of a God of Destruction and Jiren easily surpassed SSBlue with kaioken x20. So, the only way that would work is if the Gods of Destruction became over 12 times stronger than Beerus when he fought Goku.

You see the bold. That's headcannon. The growth percentages are are not in the story therefore irrelevant.

The percentages are simple deductions. I’m not creating something new. The anime has Goku using kaioken and in that storyline Beerus is above even that. Your position only works if we disregard these events and stick with only the movie plot, since Whis implied SSBlue Goku and Vegeta fighting together could match Beerus in the second movie.

[Speedster]

Headcanon doesn’t contradict anything. It’s simply a fan idea that describes which Dragon Ball stories they think are canon. It doesn’t apply to this case.

Anyway, if SSGod has 60% of Beerus’ full power, assume SSBlue has that percentage at minimum. If we multiply that level by 2, it becomes 120%. That would imply, if we go by Toriyama’s vision, that SSBlue only needs 2-fold kaioken to surpass Beerus’s power. During Goku vs. Jiren first match, Whis implies Jiren’s performance is worth of a God of Destruction and Jiren easily surpassed SSBlue with kaioken x20. So, the only way that would work is if the Gods of Destruction became over 12 times stronger than Beerus when he fought Goku.

The percentages are simple deductions. I’m not creating something new. The anime has Goku using kaioken and in that storyline Beerus is above even that. Your position only works if we disregard these events and stick with only the movie plot, since Whis implied SSBlue Goku and Vegeta fighting together could match Beerus in the second movie.

Headcanon is also the set of theories, assumptions and subjective interpretations that are elevated to rulebook status by fans without these being actually described or at least hinted in the source material or validated by the creators in supplementary material like interviews. For example, your argument operates under the assumption that the power scaling in Toriyama’s/Beerus' scale correlates linearly with the scaling of the scouter power levels. That's a headcanon as such a thing was never established in the actual source material or by Toriyama, Toyotaro or Toei. Kaioken was shown to be a direct multiplier only on the scouter power level scale; not on Toriyama's/Beerus' scale. All this supposed 'apparent retconning' of Toriyama’s quoted numbers (and the original movie’s percentages) can simply mean that the scouter power levels scale differently from the Toriyama/Beerus scale. For example, the scouter power level, y, may be related with Beerus' scale level, x, with an exponential formula like y=10^x. In that case Beerus being a ‘10’ and SSJG Goku being a ‘6’ on Toriyama’s scale can be translated as Beerus having (10^10)/(10^6)=10^4=10000x higher scouter power level than SSJG Goku, something that would fit Super’s power progression quite nicely and contradict nothing.

Also I need to remind people here that a percentage reference to Beerus' power wasn't only made in the original movie. In the Dragonball Super anime itself, Beerus stated (to himself) in episode 8 that he was forced to use 10% of his power against enraged SSJ2 Vegeta. Why use 10% of his power if Vegeta wasn't at least within an order of magnitude around that level? If Vegeta was for example well below 1% of Beerus then it would suffice Beerus to use just 1% and not require to use 10%. Anyway the point is that this brings the same questions as with the original 6-7-10 scale (or Beerus using 70% of his power versus SSJG in the movie) and its relation with the scouter power levels.

Also back to the topic, the anime, in no uncertain terms did display Goku's immediate immense base powerup after becoming SSJG. Not only was it flat out demonstrated and stated during the BoG arc that Goku indeed retained (at least partially) the powers of SSG when he lost the form and kept putting a good fight against Beerus only in SSJ (and even just in base by the end), but there was also the episode where Kuririn asked (base) Goku to punch him to see how strong he's now after becoming God, with Goku punching Kuririn and sending him flying as a gag scene. Also Vegeta needed over 7-8 months of intense individual training with Whis to catch up with Goku's new base. So there is multiple evidence that Goku did retain at least a very small percentage of the original SSJG power up. So if the SSJG powerup was 1millionx originally but now 1/1000th of this power up is accessible through the base without transforming that leaves only a 1000x further multiplier for when Goku transforms into SSJG. That goes for Gogeta/Vegetto post BoGs as well but that's not something Vegetto's/Gogeta's base had access to at the start of the BoGs arc.

[PFM18]

Like your irrelevant question has no bearing on the story so it's dismissed.

Nah you're in an awkward position. You and I both know that Beerus' power didn't multiple many times over, that much is obvious. You admitting that though then puts you in an even more awkward position where you wouldn't be able to explain why Beerus had to use as much as 70% of his power against Super Saiyan God Goku.

And because you're going off this idea that whatever Toriyama says is absolute and unchanging, then you're not able to. Which is why you're doing everything you can to dodge the question.

Beerus' power was retconned that much is clear to most everyone, something that people accepted all the way back during the Universe 6 saga. So if something Toriyama wrote for a movie no longer holds true then something he said to someone once definitely doesn't account for much at all now.

We know for a fact that Fusion > God now. It's only an assumption to say that God > Fusion back then, one that's likely not the case anymore.

That movie came out 6 years ago and the line didn't exist in the retelling so there's literally no reason to even acknowledge it.

But fusion was definitely, without a doubt, inferior to SSG during BoG. They could not have been more clear about that. Now it's changed, but the context surrounding "God" has changed dramatically and it shouldn't even be expected that the conventions of when it was introduced still hold true. We shouldn't be shocked that it isn't true anymore.

[Miracles]

Why would they create an entire BoG arc if didn't serve to replace the BoG movie? And Hugo explained an extremely basic logical deduction, whatever you want to call it is cool.

What Hugo stated about the 70% statment is fiction. Nothing contradicts the "nearly 70%" narrative back then later.
Also, it's a fan assumption that the anime replaced BOG when that was never stated anywhere.

Okay, so even the most basic of logical deductions are not allowed and we need explicit official statements to deduce anything at all whatsoever? Alright, good to know.

Like your irrelevant question has no bearing on the story so it's dismissed.

Nah you're in an awkward position. You and I both know that Beerus' power didn't multiple many times over, that much is obvious. You admitting that though then puts you in an even more awkward position where you wouldn't be able to explain why Beerus had to use as much as 70% of his power against Super Saiyan God Goku.

And because you're going off this idea that whatever Toriyama says is absolute and unchanging, then you're not able to. Which is why you're doing everything you can to dodge the question.

Beerus' power was retconned that much is clear to most everyone, something that people accepted all the way back during the Universe 6 saga. So if something Toriyama wrote for a movie no longer holds true then something he said to someone once definitely doesn't account for much at all now.

We know for a fact that Fusion > God now. It's only an assumption to say that God > Fusion back then, one that's likely not the case anymore.

Headcanon doesn’t contradict anything. It’s simply a fan idea that describes which Dragon Ball stories they think are canon. It doesn’t apply to this case.

Anyway, if SSGod has 60% of Beerus’ full power, assume SSBlue has that percentage at minimum. If we multiply that level by 2, it becomes 120%. That would imply, if we go by Toriyama’s vision, that SSBlue only needs 2-fold kaioken to surpass Beerus’s power. During Goku vs. Jiren first match, Whis implies Jiren’s performance is worth of a God of Destruction and Jiren easily surpassed SSBlue with kaioken x20. So, the only way that would work is if the Gods of Destruction became over 12 times stronger than Beerus when he fought Goku.

You see the bold. That's headcannon. The growth percentages are are not in the story therefore irrelevant.

The percentages are simple deductions. I’m not creating something new. The anime has Goku using kaioken and in that storyline Beerus is above even that. Your position only works if we disregard these events and stick with only the movie plot, since Whis implied SSBlue Goku and Vegeta fighting together could match Beerus in the second movie.

So you guys still have no canon facts but mere headcanon. Still trying with all your might to override established rules from the author and narration.
Proceed. It's been fun guys, until next time, maybe we'll do this again and hopefully you will post more with truth instead of your feelings.

[Hugo Boss]

your argument operates under the assumption that the power scaling in Toriyama’s/Beerus' scale correlates linearly with the scaling of the scouter power levels. That's a headcanon as such a thing was never established in the actual source material or by Toriyama, Toyotaro or Toei.

You created a theory to justify the numbers Toriyama used in that interview. How that is not “headcanon”? It doesn’t seem reasonable to think those numbers mean anything that complex.

So you guys still have no canon facts but mere headcanon. Still trying with all your might to override established rules from the author and narration.
Proceed. It's been fun guys, until next time, maybe we'll do this again and hopefully you will post more with truth instead of your feelings.

For real, let’s stop with this nonsense. This isn’t an appropriate response.

[Bullza]

That movie came out 6 years ago and the line didn't exist in the retelling so there's literally no reason to even acknowledge it.

Well in the series they instead said he had to use 10% of his power against Vegeta which I still think was probably written with that 70% in mind. Neither figure made sense for long though. As soon as Goku used the Kaio-ken x10 against Hit, people realised that Beerus' power had been retconned by that point.

But fusion was definitely, without a doubt, inferior to SSG during BoG.

When the movie came out, I had little doubt that Super Saiyan God was more powerful. Nothing said it for sure but it seemed that was what they were going with by writing off Fusion and then using something else in it's place. You'd naturally think it was stronger.

With what we know now...who knows anymore. All we know for sure is that currently Fusion is far superior.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I think what trips people up is that, to them, it looks as if the rules changed for no apparent reason.

And yeah, I can see why people would think that. When you go on to say that Fusion is inferior to SSG, but then a few years later show that isn't the case anymore without specific reference to why, it can be confusing. But honestly, sometimes you have to account for the rules changing. SSG was a boost that was orders of magnitude greater than anything before when done with the ritual, but when Broly came stomping around with Oozaru power on top of Super Saiyan-level power, SSG suddenly doesn't look so mighty in terms of numbers.

The rules have clearly changed there, and really, when you allow yourself to make one caveat, it's easy enough to accept others.

[Kenneth La Torre]

One of the most logical explanation for how base gogeta is superior to the individual blues is what most are starting to agree with now. fusion takes the max potential of the individuals. Which would make sense with the manga having base vegito blow a hole on merged zamasu, base vegito being above a ssj3 goku In Z, and now base gogeta dancing around ssj brolys barrage of ki.

But it's not like we have an official statement on the matter.

[PFM18]

One of the most logical explanation for how base gogeta is superior to the individual blues is what most are starting to agree with now. fusion takes the max potential of the individuals. Which would make sense with the manga having base vegito blow a hole on merged zamasu, base vegito being above a ssj3 goku In Z, and now base gogeta dancing around ssj brolys barrage of ki.

But it's not like we have an official statement on the matter.

But that wouldn't explain Base Kefla>SSG Goku nor would it explain SSG Vegeta in BR, and SSG Goku in the ToP being depicted as not being an inconceivably large amount of power compared to SSJ3 like it was in BoG.

[TobyS]

One of the most logical explanation for how base gogeta is superior to the individual blues is what most are starting to agree with now. fusion takes the max potential of the individuals. Which would make sense with the manga having base vegito blow a hole on merged zamasu, base vegito being above a ssj3 goku In Z, and now base gogeta dancing around ssj brolys barrage of ki.

But it's not like we have an official statement on the matter.

But that wouldn't explain Base Kefla>SSG Goku nor would it explain SSG Vegeta in BR, and SSG Goku in the ToP being depicted as not being an inconceivably large amount of power compared to SSJ3 like it was in BoG.

Hot take but those are explained by not being in the manga/toryamas outline.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

SSBE Vegeta is officially stated to be equal to SSB Kaioken Goku and he was easily beating around a God of Destruction. Though to win, he needed a suicide move to counter a full power Hakai. There was no "retcon". Beerus' power doesn't need to have changed at all. People like to say that Toei bloats the powerscale. Well this is just one of those instances. SSB Kaioken Goku would defeat a God of Destruction just like Vegeta can.

[PFM18]

One of the most logical explanation for how base gogeta is superior to the individual blues is what most are starting to agree with now. fusion takes the max potential of the individuals. Which would make sense with the manga having base vegito blow a hole on merged zamasu, base vegito being above a ssj3 goku In Z, and now base gogeta dancing around ssj brolys barrage of ki.

But it's not like we have an official statement on the matter.

But that wouldn't explain Base Kefla>SSG Goku nor would it explain SSG Vegeta in BR, and SSG Goku in the ToP being depicted as not being an inconceivably large amount of power compared to SSJ3 like it was in BoG.

Hot take but those are explained by not being in the manga/toryamas outline.

....So they are just ignored? They have to be taken into account if you're going to scale the anime.

If you're talking about the manga, it also doesn't depict SSG as being as large of a boost as it was during BoG, so it aligns well with the anime in that respect. The difference is, there's no logical reason why this would be the case in the manga, where as there is in the anime.

[ankokudaishogun]

SSBE Vegeta is officially stated to be equal to SSB Kaioken Goku

Not officially, just an interview.
Which confirmed what was already shown in-story: Blue Evolution was equivalent to Blue Kaioken x20.
Therefore both are fully Hakaishin Class, because Vegeta managed to defeat Hakaishin Toppo, which we KNOW is fully and undoubtly Hakaishin Class as there is no reason whatsoever to doubt Bermoud's word on it.

That said, all three can arguably be at the lowest end of the Hakaishin Class, able to fight but not to defeat the highest-ranked Hakaishins

[TobyS]

But that wouldn't explain Base Kefla>SSG Goku nor would it explain SSG Vegeta in BR, and SSG Goku in the ToP being depicted as not being an inconceivably large amount of power compared to SSJ3 like it was in BoG.

Hot take but those are explained by not being in the manga/toryamas outline.

....So they are just ignored? They have to be taken into account if you're going to scale the anime.

The anime contradicts itself and has more numerous inconsistencies. I don't think it can be accurately scaled IMO.

”If you're talking about the manga, it also doesn't depict SSG as being as large of a boost as it was during BoG, so it aligns well with the anime in that respect. The difference is, there's no logical reason why this would be the case in the manga, where as there is in the anime.”

What in the manga makes you certain the Red multiplier has dropped since the “movie”? I don't remember it.

[PFM18]

The anime contradicts itself and has more numerous inconsistencies. I don't think it can be accurately scaled IMO.

Well, not really. The manga contradicts itself/has as many or more inconsistencies across the board. Regardless though, going by this logic we shouldn't scale any DB series because every one outside of the original DB/first half of the manga is inconsistent.

What in the manga makes you certain the Red multiplier has dropped since the “movie”? I don't remember it.

Well, quite literally everything, but especially the U6 arc.

And the movie isn't relevant, not sure why you mention it.

When the movie came out, I had little doubt that Super Saiyan God was more powerful. Nothing said it for sure but it seemed that was what they were going with by writing off Fusion and then using something else in it's place. You'd naturally think it was stronger.

With what we know now...who knows anymore. All we know for sure is that currently Fusion is far superior.

The movie, the anime adaptation, and the manga adaptation all convey that SSG>fusion, and we have every reason to believe that was true at the time. But there's so many variables that have changed since then, and now it appears it has swapped for whatever reason.