Goku Black on Saiyans

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Hulk10
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Goku Black on Saiyans

Post by Hulk10 » Thu Feb 14, 2019 6:38 pm

I'm pretty sure that Goku Black/Zamasu didn't fully understand Saiyans and their powers.

And I think he has an overly high opinion of his own 'divine' wrath.
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Re: Goku Black on Saiyans

Post by sunsetshimmer » Thu Feb 14, 2019 6:57 pm

He was never divine. He was never a real kaioshin and using mortal body doesn't help him.

It's obvious he didn't understand saiyan power because even Baby didn't and he, unlike Zamasu and Ginyu, could use 100% of his host's potential without training.
So Goku Black who was simply adapting to body and learning saiyan fighting style can't understand that either. That was clear after Vegeta returned from training and beated Goku Black. They didn't understand mortals in general to begin with as Gowasu pointed out many times. And he underestimated them when Trunks destroyed him with his Shaman King type of sword. He basically had no idea about any living thing other than him.
Last edited by sunsetshimmer on Thu Feb 14, 2019 6:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"I will concede that your feelings are worthy of the mightiest of Saiyans. However, there is more to my power than just this. Before you die, I will show it to you. This is the difference in power, between the primitive Saiyans and the evolved Tsufruians." ~Baby Vegeta

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Re: Goku Black on Saiyans

Post by Hulk10 » Thu Feb 14, 2019 6:59 pm

sunsetshimmer wrote:He was never divine. He was never a real kaioshin and using mortal body doesn't help him.

It's obvious he didn't understand saiyan power because even Baby didn't and he, unlike Zamasu and Ginyu, could use 100% of his host's potential without training.
So Goku Black who was simply adapting to body and learning saiyan fighting style can't understand that either. That was clear after Vegeta returned from training and beated Goku Black. They didn't understand mortals in general to begin with as Gowasu pointed out many times. And he underestimated them when Trunks destroyed him with his Shaman King type of sword.
Yeah, for all his arrogance he sorely underestimated them. Though his anger was more widely directed it wasn't any stronger than Goku's or Vegeta's or Future Trunks's.
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Re: Goku Black on Saiyans

Post by SupremeKai25 » Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:28 am

Of course he didn't understand the Saiyans at the beginning. He was training to become the Supreme Kai of Universe 10, and in that universe there are no Saiyans, so why would he even need to know who Saiyans are? As far as he was concerned, Saiyans were the perfect example of the failure of the Gods and the sins of mortals. They were a species that became stronger than the Kais, thus they could no longer be controlled. And if you cannot control a universe, you cannot be called a God. They also dared to raise their fists against him, a God, thus they represented the arrogance of mortal kind that would defy their creator.

It is with this mentality that Zamasu wished to switch body with Goku, and from that moment, he started to gradulally understand better the Saiyans. His opinion of them didn't change of course, but he began to think and act more like a Saiyan. He used a lot of parallels with food, he rejected immortality, he craved fighting, and he desired to be the strongest. So before fusing, the Zamasu in Black's body was learning what it truly meant to be a Saiyan, and this often brought him to disagree with his counterpart Future Zamasu who didn't understand why his alternate self would care so much about becoming the strongest.

Before his setback at the hands of Vegeta, Black hadn't learned that Saiyans grows stronger through anger. He thought that they became more powerful only through pain. After he was defeated by Vegeta, he realized that his enemy grew so much stronger because he was angry at what Black did. So Black finally discovered that anger could be used as a fuel, and once he did, he expanded his power beyond his own divine comprehension, as the godly fury that he holds within him is greater than everyone else's and thus makes him the strongest.

Sure, Zamasu underestimated the Saiyans and mortals in general, and because of that he lost his beautiful physical form. But the mortals also underestimated Zamasu, and because of that they lost their precious multiverse. If you think about it, Zamasu didn't underestimate anyone. He wished for a Saiyan body to have ultimate strength, he recruited an immortal ally to serve as fodder for himself, and he travelled to a universe with no Beerus to make sure that no one would oppose him. His plan was perfect, and it shows that Zamasu, while arrogant and self-absorbed, respected the threat that mortals and his fellow Gods posed to his plans.

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Re: Goku Black on Saiyans

Post by Lord Frieza » Fri Feb 15, 2019 7:31 am

Zamasu’s Biggest flaw is that new was smart but also arrogant. He believed his perception of reality was flawless and it created the blind spots that lead to his downfall.

In Goku’s body, Black I argue was actually superior to the original. He was a faster learner, adaptive with his super zenkai giving him a very big edge. But a lot of what he learned he only learned by fighting Goku and Vegeta. It would have taken him much longer to master on his own. Hell going by the anime he’d only just learned to sense ki.
That said let’s not forget that after Vegeta’s beat down, Black again learned and grew stronger.

What really screwed him over was never learning everything about fusion and all it’s limitations. But that just highlights just how flawed Zamasu mindset is. He learns only what he wants to know, not the big picture.

To give him credit on his smarts though, he’s the only villain to literary use every trick the hero’s used against other bad guys against them.

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Re: Goku Black on Saiyans

Post by ruler9871 » Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:40 pm

To be honest, Goku Black & Future Zamasu probably would have won if they never fused (in the anime version at least. The manga versions were doomed from the start). Fusion give him a mental breakdown and he lost all tactical advantage against the Saiyans.
zarmack wrote:The whole "Dragonball is only supposed to be light and funny" mentality that exist in a lot of the fandom is in many ways even dumber than the "edgeload" side of the fandom. You know, the contrarians who think DB should be a Slice-of-Life series, the folks who worship Pre-Raditz Dragonball uncritically, the folks who downplay and often flat-out deny that Dragonball is an action series, the folks who try to push that false argument that none of the serious moments in the series were mean't to be taken seriously, etc.

Dragonball doesn't have a single tone. It has both silly and serious moments, both humor and drama, just like real life. The idea that a work of fiction should be only all-comedy or all-serious is unnatural and frankly, retarded.

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Re: Goku Black on Saiyans

Post by Lord Frieza » Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:00 pm

ruler9871 wrote:To be honest, Goku Black & Future Zamasu probably would have won if they never fused (in the anime version at least. The manga versions were doomed from the start). Fusion give him a mental breakdown and he lost all tactical advantage against the Saiyans.
That and the fact that you should never fuse in a transfomed state as it becomes part of the resulting fusions normal form and they cannot power down. Old Kai warned it could shorten Goku's life and thats when it's ownly for an hour. With his fusion being perminent and having lost his immortality it's little wonder half his body turned to purple slime. Hell I bet the constant pain and strain on his body didn't do his mental state any favors ether.

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Re: Goku Black on Saiyans

Post by SupremeKai25 » Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:52 pm

Black knew how to win and, unlike his gullible enemies, he had a brilliant plan. If the two Zamases had never fused, they would have won. Their coordination and teamwork were perfect, always on point, as they were the same person. But when they fused, that coordination was gone. The fragile balance between Zamasu's immortal soul and semi-mortal body was shattered, and Trunks exploited that weakness to vanquish Fused Zamasu.

The thing is, Black and Zamasu always wanted to fuse. The Zamasu in Goku's body was merely using his new vessel to carry out the Project Zero Mortals, but once the war was won? The two Zamases would have become one. Zamasu always wanted to rule as the sole God of the cosmos and at the same time take upon his body the sins of mortals so they may never be repeated, seeing that as the sacred duty of a true God. Fusion between the two was inevitable, but they definitely merged at the wrong time. Black overreacted. He probably freaked out after looking at the terrified face of his immortal partner. And I can't blame him for making that choice. If your parter, who is immortal, tells you that they have to be careful and that they could easily be crushed... then you know that it's time to end the games.

In the end, Zamasu's arrogance was his own undoing. If Fused Zamasu had just eliminated his opponents as soon as he was born (and he had the power to do so!), he would have won, without even having to suffer the effects of an unstable body. But he decided to toy with his opponents, to slowly bask in his victory, and in doing so he unknowingly gave his enemies the chance to defeat him. Black couldn't have foreseen that Goku would have literally gone beyond his limits and revealed to everyone the great weakness in the fusion's body! Black's miscalculation is understandable, he wasn't stupid.

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Re: Goku Black on Saiyans

Post by Hulk10 » Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:42 pm

Actually the real reason Vegeta was so much stronger than Goku Black during the final confrontation is because he trained in the Time Chamber. Not due to his anger.
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Re: Goku Black on Saiyans

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sat Feb 16, 2019 1:54 pm

Hulk10 wrote:Actually the real reason Vegeta was so much stronger than Goku Black during the final confrontation is because he trained in the Time Chamber. Not due to his anger.
The two reasons are not competing. Vegeta was also stronger because he got angry after watching Black and Zamasu hurt his son.

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Re: Goku Black on Saiyans

Post by Hulk10 » Sat Feb 16, 2019 4:09 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Hulk10 wrote:Actually the real reason Vegeta was so much stronger than Goku Black during the final confrontation is because he trained in the Time Chamber. Not due to his anger.
The two reasons are not competing. Vegeta was also stronger because he got angry after watching Black and Zamasu hurt his son.
I'm not saying they were. But anger only provides a temporary boost. So the predominant reason was that Vegeta trained in the Time Chamber but he also got a boost from anger.
"We became like friends, we became like good friends." Broly to Cheelai and Lemo about his fur pelt.

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