Son Gohan's power level writing in Super as a whole

[Hugo Boss]

I think that Golden Freeza is equal in strength to SSB Goku and Vegeta.

When using full strength, as seen with Toppo, SSB-level can easily toss Gohan and 17 around, though it can't just instantly stomp them either.

Sure, in their little squabbling Goku and Freeza were equal. But, if Gohan can match Freeza, he would match that level of SSBlue as well, which likely means SSBlue also powered-up.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I think that Golden Freeza is equal in strength to SSB Goku and Vegeta.

When using full strength, as seen with Toppo, SSB-level can easily toss Gohan and 17 around, though it can't just instantly stomp them either.

Sure, in their little squabbling Goku and Freeza were equal. But, if Gohan can match Freeza, he would match that level of SSBlue as well, which likely means SSBlue also powered-up.

We have to remember though that Freeza still won that fight, and it was a play fight at that.

Also, Freeza said he'd have killed Gohan if he didn't catch on, and I believe that. If he used his full power, Golden Freeza could've easily killed Ultimate Gohan.

[ZombieVito]

I think that Golden Freeza is equal in strength to SSB Goku and Vegeta.

When using full strength, as seen with Toppo, SSB-level can easily toss Gohan and 17 around, though it can't just instantly stomp them either.

Sure, in their little squabbling Goku and Freeza were equal. But, if Gohan can match Freeza, he would match that level of SSBlue as well, which likely means SSBlue also powered-up.

Gohan saying he can handle Freeza doesn't make it true.

Especially when Freeza was confirmed to be stronger than Blue Vegeta and is equal to Blue Goku.

[PFM18]

He survived struggling against SSB Kaioken (even if it's for a few more moments of conscious) and not died against, meaning he was clearly not sub-par to SSB (at least not the SSB's power level from before the ToP).

What? He was instantly one shot by SSB Kaioken?

Are you stating or asking? FTR I have read the rest of the comments but I will just post what is fact regarding this quote here: Goku used SSB against Gohan and both tasted each other's hits, if Gohan was at Android 17's level of power he would not have gone so far to bring up Kaioken (a multiplier), even if it was just times 3 of the given power level he had just used as a SSB. Meaning Gohan is in the very least at SSB tier by then.

The writing of Frieza being too OP whener he shows up again is just a constent result of bad writing in the sake of hyping him. GoD Mode Toppo stomped him even in his Golden form, but in DBS: Broly we are suppose to believe he's many times stronger than his ToP self and FAR ABOVE SSB Goku and Vegeta as he managed to survive a beatdown by SSJ Broly for an hour. Serious, this is not an indicator for a consistent power scaling, sadly.

I was just pointing out that "he struggled against Kaioken" is just factually incorrect. He literally got one shot by Kaioken. And he didn't even force Goku into SSB, he had to explicitly ask him to go SSB, unlike 17, who he felt forced to go into SSB. Sure, Gohan is clearly poprtrayed as being "SSB tier", but that doesn't necessarily mean that he's just as strong, it just means they are in the same tier. Golden Freeza=SSB Goku>Ultimate Gohan can still easily hold.

The anime and the movie don't necessarily take place in the same continuity, and so that isn't really a logical criticism. Also, if you insist upon relating them, then it doesn't dictate Freeza being many times stronger, he didn't actually do anything to Golden Freeza, just as he didn't to GoD Toppo. He just got his ass beat by both. Sure, he survived, and I guess that's an "issue" but he wasn't actually explicitly portrayed as way stronger. And we don't even necessarily know how GoD Toppo and SSJ Broly even compare. Obviously, LSSJ Broly/FP Broly>>>>>>GoD Toppo, but normal, golden haired SSJ Broly is considerably weaker than his green-haired, armorless version that forced Gogeta into SSB.

[Hugo Boss]

I think that Golden Freeza is equal in strength to SSB Goku and Vegeta.

When using full strength, as seen with Toppo, SSB-level can easily toss Gohan and 17 around, though it can't just instantly stomp them either.

Sure, in their little squabbling Goku and Freeza were equal. But, if Gohan can match Freeza, he would match that level of SSBlue as well, which likely means SSBlue also powered-up.

We have to remember though that Freeza still won that fight, and it was a play fight at that.

Also, Freeza said he'd have killed Gohan if he didn't catch on, and I believe that. If he used his full power, Golden Freeza could've easily killed Ultimate Gohan.

I meant Goku vs. Freeza before they met the other team members. Freeza didn’t technically win his fight with Gohan though. Gohan pretended to be caught on his blow and wasn’t damaged. Since they both have confidence, I think they could be even.

Gohan saying he can handle Freeza doesn't make it true.

Especially when Freeza was confirmed to be stronger than Blue Vegeta and is equal to Blue Goku.

He seemed pretty confident though. And Freeza doesn’t dispute that.

SSBlue Vegeta was stronger than SSBlue Goku, at least if we count that Top with his real power was implied to be stronger than SSBlue Goku in the exhibition matches and SSBlue Vegeta was on par with Top.

[ZombieVito]

He seemed pretty confident though. And Freeza doesn’t dispute that.

SSBlue Vegeta was stronger than SSBlue Goku, at least if we count that Top with his real power was implied to be stronger than SSBlue Goku in the exhibition matches and SSBlue Vegeta was on par with Top.

I just assume Goku didn't go all out with Blue. They never said Goku needed Kaioken to beat Toppo.

In any case, Goku and Freeza were confirmed to be tied for #1 spot on the U7 team so they are stronger than Vegeta and by extension Toppo. Since Gohan and 17 couldn't beat Toppo then they too are weaker than Goku and Freeza.

SSB Goku = Golden Freeza > SSB Vegeta ~ Toppo > Gohan ~ 17.

[PFM18]

so they are stronger than Vegeta and by extension Toppo.

Huh? Goku and Vegeta have been dead even the entire series, Goku isn't stronger than him. And Freeza needed 17's help to beat Toppo.

SSB Kaioken Goku>Toppo>SSB Goku=SSB Vegeta=Golden Freeza>17>Ultimate Gohan

With 17 and Gohan still being "SSB tier" but being behind them. Toppo easily tanked Gohan's attacks and he had to ask his dad to go SSB without him considering it actually 100% necessary.

[Tai Lung]

I wanted to post something which I was thinking about these last few days. It's about Gohan's power level in Super as a whole as of yet.
So let's go from the beginning, it's the Battle of Gods Arc, Gohan is 4 years after his Ultimate form maximum from the Buu Saga (which is on-par or slightly stronger than SSJ 3 Goku of that time), he seems to be almost as in shape as back then when Beerus arrives on Earth, considering his physical appearance, but lacks the sharpness of back then (I'd say that he's at 70% of his Super Buu fight).

A few months had passed, and Frieza is back with us (for the 1000th time I believe?). Gohan's SSJ in Resurrection 'F' is nowhere near his Mystic/Ultimate prime from when he fought Super Buu, as Piccolo referred to that level as something so powerful even AFTER Gohan had fought (and technically won) against Lavender, making his RoF base less than 2% of his Mystic power (50 times that will be a 100%). Making Tagoma look like a Super Perfect Cell tier at best (Captain Ginyu is slightly higher, if my asumption is correct then maybe Dabura tier?) and Shisami at Semi-Perfect Cell tier when is scaled realistically.

Gohan's path back to power began in episode 30 (Vegeta even notes that Gohan's potential is still higher than both his and Goku's despite their current power gains = to crush Tagoma-Ginyu to dust without breaking a sweat at base and to match Golden Frieza in Super Saiyan Blue), we are shown he was training again for a while with Piccolo (who should be stronger than the initial Majin Buu by this point), even though he's still rusty and NOT as powerful as he was back in his prime, but sure is much stronger than what he was against Frieza. Then he skips the Tournament of Destroyers and his power never to be scaled until Future Trunks shares a day with him and notes that his base is currently weaker than his SSJ 2 power back as a kid against Cell. Once Gohan is updated of Goku Black and Zamasu he goes to train with Piccolo in the Room of Spirit and Time ASAP and goes back to his Mystic prime (look at him when he bid Future Trunks and Future Mai farewell).

Then it's 3 months of peace and despite the fact he was indeed much weaker than his Mystic prime, he wasn't as weak and rusty as in RoF, that's shown with the Watagash/Barry Kahn conflict, and the baseball episode (70) where Champa compliments him despite his fragile figure ("You're pretty strong, eh?") after he survived SSB Goku's pitch. This situation of Gohan maintaining some degree of his true/best game power is shown when he spars with Goku in their family field at the beginning of episode 75, making his old man proud.

So basically he rose back to a nice piece of his power when he fought Lavender, a character who's at Majin Vegeta's tier, and despite being much stronger than this tier (his SSJ and SSJ 2 caused Lavender to resort to his dirty moves = Gohan's base at this point is stronger than BOTH what Goku and Vegeta were at base in the Majin Buu Saga), the canide alien had managed to gradually weaken him with his poison breathes. After a senzu bean recovery Gohan seems like he gained some small zenkai. Back on Earth right afterwards, all he was left to do to be back in the top of his game is to be fully drawn out by Piccolo motivating and fixing his mindset, after a session of some sparring against his old master and meditation he became even stronger in his Mystic/Ultimate form than ever before. Gohan is not satisfied, and again wants to go even further, he faces against his dad who is joined by Tien and shows them that he can handle the two of them at once (with some small aid from Piccolo by the end of match 1) - Goku is back in fighting shape, after his power lowered down due to rust even Earth bullets could hurt him to a level MUCH MUCH STRONGER than his and Vegeta's base power level from the begining of the Champa Arc after 3 years of preparations. Gohan wants to fight against his dad when he's at full power as well, so they each eat a senzu bean and begin match 2, Gohan is much stronger than his dad's current SSJ 2 and managed to become almost at SSB Kaioken tier. Goku is amazed by his quick progress.

Then comes the Tournament of Power, and in the span of 48 Earth minutes Gohan went a few levels up, starting with his battle against Botamo who's stronger than any villain from Z (sans Kid Buu, Buutenks and Buuhan) whom he defeated in his base form, moving to Obuni where his Mystic form's power level rose even higher, the Universe 6 Namekians which made him get further in the power levels chart, the Shantza and Damon fight where his wisdom kicked in (just like in most of his performance in this tournament), his fight against Universe 3's aces which took him higher once again (making what his pre-ToP max look like a different person who's less than 1/5 of his end-of-the-ToP self), he undoubtly grew much stronger as upon facing Dyspo he felt comfortable enough to tell Golden Frieza not to try anything funny against him (the same Golden Frieza was 20 minutes or so earlier a person who could kill Ultimate Gohan at any given moment), and his standings to the likes of God of Desturcion mode Toppo (a character who's leagues above the SSB Kaioken from 4.5 hours earlier Goku who effortlessly took out Gohan) and Dyspo (the latter is on-par with him due to his speed, but without it Dyspo is inferior to Gohan in strength).

Not to mention his manga version where he's on par with SSJ Kefla (a **Non-Mastered** Ultra Instinct tier character in the anime as a SSJ2, but only as strong as a combination between LSSJ Kale, who crushed Anilaza within seconds, and SSJ Caulifla in the manga) which makes him look even more powerful than his anime self in hindsight.

Bottom line is, Gohan's power in Super was mostly in downfall (with a brief increase by episode 30) but had a few steep peaks in the later part of the series, from the Zamasu Arc's end to Super episode 131 Gohan multiplied his battle power by more than any of the conventional Super Saiyan form will do to one's base (the current maximum is 400 times over by SSJ 3).

Edits: Lavender's name spelling throughout.

Gohan in the battle of the gods seemed to have the same level as they had in the buu arc but due to the lack of condition he can not out all his power.
FNF has already finished retiring at the birth of his daughter and his condition has worsened a lot even though it can still be transformed into ssj, tagoma is superior to piccolo but weaker than gohan ssj so tagoma must be less than level semi perfect cell but stronger than the androids in z.
tagoma - ginyu must be as strong as the same tagoma since the problem of ginyu with the new bodies was with the warriors who could raise and lower their ki or had an advanced control of the energy is not the case of tagoma.
Gohan in the episodes with Barry Kahn had recovered perhaps as strong as teen gohan in cell games.
in the Pre-TOP he had already stronger than before because of what Piccolo said, gohan defeat to lavender despite the poison that covered his body
in the TOP it was already stronger than in Buu arc when recovering the SNS where gohan defeated obumi and the namekians of U6 who must have a level close to super buu.
again for piccolo words assure that gohan still hid more power and as if his mouth were a prophet would become reality later, because when piccolo falls gohan stops containing and releases all its power faced dyspo and universe 3 team by reference that had dyspo in previous fights hit, frieza and goku god as a last instance gohan with his new released potential has the level of an SSJ God but both he and 17 and were inferior to toppo.
I will not talk about the manga because that fight with kefla seems to me an aberration ... at the level of roshi against jiren and it is a total problem to look for coherence since gohan did not do anything in almost tdoo the manga.

[ZombieVito]

Huh? Goku and Vegeta have been dead even the entire series, Goku isn't stronger than him. And Freeza needed 17's help to beat Toppo.

SSB Kaioken Goku>Toppo>SSB Goku=SSB Vegeta=Golden Freeza>17>Ultimate Gohan

With 17 and Gohan still being "SSB tier" but being behind them. Toppo easily tanked Gohan's attacks and he had to ask his dad to go SSB without him considering it actually 100% necessary.

Argue with Shueisha. SSB Goku > SSB Vegeta in the ToP arc is official information.

Toppo tanking attacks means nothing considering his body type. Freeza's only interaction with Toppo before he turned GoD was to blast him from behind. They never fought face to face so saying Freeza needed 17's help is headcanon.

[Hugo Boss]

Argue with Shueisha. SSB Goku > SSB Vegeta in the ToP arc is official information.

Toppo tanking attacks means nothing considering his body type. Freeza's only interaction with Toppo before he turned GoD was to blast him from behind. They never fought face to face so saying Freeza needed 17's help is headcanon.

We are pretty much debating “headcanons”. What kind of confirmation did Shueisha provide in this case?

Accounting the story progress, if Freeza was stronger than Top, wouldn’t that make Dyspo actually more formidable than Top, since Freeza can’t beat Dyspo?

[PFM18]

Argue with Shueisha. SSB Goku > SSB Vegeta in the ToP arc is official information.

You keep saying this but haven't actually posted anything. I don't know wtf you're talking about.

Toppo tanking attacks means nothing considering his body type. Freeza's only interaction with Toppo before he turned GoD was to blast him from behind. They never fought face to face so saying Freeza needed 17's help is headcanon.

Body type means absolutely nothing in Dragon Ball. This is a non-argument.

They fought Toppo 2 on 1 the entire time, but the only exchange wasn't limited to Freeza hitting Toppo in the back.

[Green_Goblin]

I was just pointing out that "he struggled against Kaioken" is just factually incorrect. He literally got one shot by Kaioken. And he didn't even force Goku into SSB, he had to explicitly ask him to go SSB, unlike 17, who he felt forced to go into SSB. Sure, Gohan is clearly poprtrayed as being "SSB tier", but that doesn't necessarily mean that he's just as strong, it just means they are in the same tier. Golden Freeza=SSB Goku>Ultimate Gohan can still easily hold.

The anime and the movie don't necessarily take place in the same continuity, and so that isn't really a logical criticism. Also, if you insist upon relating them, then it doesn't dictate Freeza being many times stronger, he didn't actually do anything to Golden Freeza, just as he didn't to GoD Toppo. He just got his ass beat by both. Sure, he survived, and I guess that's an "issue" but he wasn't actually explicitly portrayed as way stronger. And we don't even necessarily know how GoD Toppo and SSJ Broly even compare. Obviously, LSSJ Broly/FP Broly>>>>>>GoD Toppo, but normal, golden haired SSJ Broly is considerably weaker than his green-haired, armorless version that forced Gogeta into SSB.

Let's ignore the AWFULLY BAD WRITING of Android 17 in this arc (already wrote a topic about it), okey? As I've mentioned before the power scaling was OFF mostly because many writers took part in it, with them not interacting with each other WHILE WRITING THE FOLLOWING EPISODE according to the date published here in this very forum.

OFC The "DBS: Broly" movie takes place in the same continuity, don't kid yourself with such illogical claims. It's part of Toriyama's canon and was adressed to in the manga pages between the end of the Tournament of Power and the beginning of the Galactic Patrol Prisoner Arc. Toppo AT "BASE" was strong enough to handle Golden Frieza, who caught him by surprise by shooting his back but still didn't managed to pierce his body when Toppo was dealing with Android 17. Watch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CY5VRf94YFI Once he turned into his God of Destruction form he was enormously stronger, and have literally canned Frieza.
Well, I think it's quite obvious that FULL POWER (LSSJ) Broly is stronger than "just" SSJ Broly. The writing makes the audience lose grip in the gradual power growth we were used to in Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z. If it was up to me, LSSJ Broly was a 100, SSJ Broly was a 12, Wrathful Broly was a 9, Jiren was a 12.5 at his 50% and a 25 at his best, and GoD Toppo was a 8.75.

But that's not what this topic is about.

tagoma - ginyu must be as strong as the same tagoma since the problem of ginyu with the new bodies was with the warriors who could raise and lower their ki or had an advanced control of the energy is not the case of tagoma.

BOTH Piccolo and Jaco had commented about how Ginyu managed to stretch Tagoma's given power level which was allegedly his true power somewhat (probably not that drastically much) higher than when Tagoma was in his body. Therefore my statement that if Tagoma was AT BEST at Super Perfect Cell's tier THEN Ginyu was at Dabura's tier (always believed he was a bit stronger than the power level Cell reached at his "Super" Perfect form).

[ZombieVito]

Argue with Shueisha. SSB Goku > SSB Vegeta in the ToP arc is official information.

Toppo tanking attacks means nothing considering his body type. Freeza's only interaction with Toppo before he turned GoD was to blast him from behind. They never fought face to face so saying Freeza needed 17's help is headcanon.

We are pretty much debating “headcanons”. What kind of confirmation did Shueisha provide in this case?

Accounting the story progress, if Freeza was stronger than Top, wouldn’t that make Dyspo actually more formidable than Top, since Freeza can’t beat Dyspo?

Yes, if Dyspo uses his final technique then he could give Toppo a lot of trouble but I doubt he can make serious damage to him before getting tired and Toppo can always go GoD.

A preview for the arc confirmed SSB Goku > SSB Vegeta and nothing in the anime contradicts it.

[Tai Lung]

BOTH Piccolo and Jaco had commented about how Ginyu managed to stretch Tagoma's given power level which was allegedly his true power somewhat (probably not that drastically much) higher than when Tagoma was in his body. Therefore my statement that if Tagoma was AT BEST at Super Perfect Cell's tier THEN Ginyu was at Dabura's tier (always believed he was a bit stronger than the power level Cell reached at his "Super" Perfect form).

in context piccolo could refer to that "ginyu" is now stronger with tagoma's body that with the bulma's body because remember they met on that occasion and anyway Jako explains that he knows the Ginyu forces so the comment could refer to Ginyu increasing his power with the new body and not necessarily tagoma too.

[Hugo Boss]

Yes, if Dyspo uses his final technique then he could give Toppo a lot of trouble but I doubt he can make serious damage to him before getting tired and Toppo can always go GoD.

A preview for the arc confirmed SSB Goku > SSB Vegeta and nothing in the anime contradicts it.

I was taking in consideration only Top’s real power, not his God of Destruction mode. For the narrative, that transformation would require more than two SSBlue level opponents, while Top’s usual self and Dyspo are supposed to be still inside their scope.

I would like to see that preview for myself before coming to conclusions. Though, Vegeta showed he could match Top with his SSBlue. Goku used kaioken and admitted later he wasn't sure his SSBlue would cut it. Likely, this is an indication that, after training in the RoSaT, Vegeta was at least on par with Goku’s SSBlue, if not comparable to kaioken. In the tournament, after experiencing harsh conditions, Goku and Vegeta probably acclimated to a similar status.

[ZombieVito]

I was taking in consideration only Top’s real power, not his God of Destruction mode. For the narrative, that transformation would require more than two SSBlue level opponents, while Top’s usual self and Dyspo are supposed to be still inside their scope.

I would like to see that preview for myself before coming to conclusions. Though, Vegeta showed he could match Top with his SSBlue. Goku used kaioken and admitted later he wasn't sure his SSBlue would cut it. Likely, this is an indication that, after training in the RoSaT, Vegeta was at least on par with Goku’s SSBlue, if not comparable to kaioken. In the tournament, after experiencing harsh conditions, Goku and Vegeta probably acclimated to a similar status.

Prior to Goku achieveing Ultra Instinct -Sign-, Frieza and Goku were tied for the No. 1 spot on Team Universe 7 in terms of power.

I doubt Vegeta matched Goku's power since by the Broly movie he still needs to catch up according to another preview/interview.

By the time of Dragon Ball Super: Broly, Goku is close to being a god, with Vegeta desperately trying to catch up with him.

https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/1025903372694478849

[PFM18]

Prior to Goku achieveing Ultra Instinct -Sign-, Frieza and Goku were tied for the No. 1 spot on Team Universe 7 in terms of power.

Then it must have been a three-way tie. Nothing indicates Vegeta isn't dead even with them.

[Green_Goblin]

BOTH Piccolo and Jaco had commented about how Ginyu managed to stretch Tagoma's given power level which was allegedly his true power somewhat (probably not that drastically much) higher than when Tagoma was in his body. Therefore my statement that if Tagoma was AT BEST at Super Perfect Cell's tier THEN Ginyu was at Dabura's tier (always believed he was a bit stronger than the power level Cell reached at his "Super" Perfect form).

in context piccolo could refer to that "ginyu" is now stronger with tagoma's body that with the bulma's body because remember they met on that occasion and anyway Jako explains that he knows the Ginyu forces so the comment could refer to Ginyu increasing his power with the new body and not necessarily tagoma too.

Nope, Piccolo was clearly referring to Ginyu in comparison to Tagoma whom he just faced and lost to - that scene where Ginyu used Bulma's body in front of Piccolo was never referred to in this context. Jaco said in the Japanese dub: "He (Ginyu) drew out that Tagoma person's full power" - meaning that Ginyu can dive deeper to Tagoma's true potential and exploit it, while Tagoma himself couldn't flesh out his power level to this level.

If I'll take it back to power scaling in the context of Gohans true best till the Resurrection 'F' saga, the list would look like this:
* Mystic/Ultimate Gohan (Super Buu fight): 100
* Super Buu: 70
* Frieza (1st form): 75
* SSJ Gotenks (RoF): 9.25
* Tagoma: 8.5
- Ginyu in Tagoma's body: 8.75
* Gohan: 0.9
- Gohan enraged at Shisami: 5.3
- Gohan "getting in shape" against Ginyu: 5.4 (after Ginyu's counter-strike drops back to 0.9)
- SSJ Gohan: 45 (uses only 25% to gag Ginyu up: 11.25)
* Piccolo: 3.6
- Piccolo's maximum against Tagoma: 4.5
* Shisami: 4.3

[Hugo Boss]

Prior to Goku achieveing Ultra Instinct -Sign-, Frieza and Goku were tied for the No. 1 spot on Team Universe 7 in terms of power.

For context, that’s what Herms told about it.

Looks like this is referring to a point of the tournament well before episode 110. Vegeta only fought Top in episode 112, showing his strength was at least on par with Goku from the exhibition matches. The rundown still referred Vegeta as Goku’s rival.

As per Goku being close to be a god, sounds like they are talking about Ultra Instinct.