What can we deduce about Toriyama's outlines by comparing the anime and the manga?
Moderators: General Help, Kanzenshuu Staff
- TheUltimateNinja
- I Live Here
- Posts: 4020
- Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2016 12:17 pm
What can we deduce about Toriyama's outlines by comparing the anime and the manga?
I'm not looking for obvious things like the main villain or whatever, but rather the details. For example, Toriyama's outlines most likely had Goku becoming 10x stronger than Vegeta in the Hit fight since Toei had him use Kaioken x10 and Toyo had Vegeta lose 90% of his power.
Re: What can we deduce about Toriyama's outlines by comparing the anime and the manga?
Interesting thread and you forgot that goku encounters the time skip and he did a Kamehameha against hit and goku forfeited because hit is not allowed to use killing techniques in both the manga and anime is safe to say those are part of toriyama outline
Mostly active on discord.
Re: What can we deduce about Toriyama's outlines by comparing the anime and the manga?
There's also that thing about Goku never kissing before
キミもテイマーをめざせ!
- DBZ Macky
- Advanced Regular
- Posts: 1104
- Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2016 1:29 pm
- Location: Delhi NCR, India
- Contact:
Re: What can we deduce about Toriyama's outlines by comparing the anime and the manga?
"Include a 10% line and fuck up the power scale"
-Toriyama Akira's Outline, 2015
We have the line in the Anime where Vegeta makes Beerus use 10% of his power and then in the Manga, we have SS Goku faring better than SSB Vegeta at 10%, essentially making SSB a ~500x "multiplier".
-Toriyama Akira's Outline, 2015
We have the line in the Anime where Vegeta makes Beerus use 10% of his power and then in the Manga, we have SS Goku faring better than SSB Vegeta at 10%, essentially making SSB a ~500x "multiplier".
Jinzoningen MULE wrote:You're in the DB community, it's always a power level thread to someone.
- iAnimationLover_
- Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
- Posts: 378
- Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2016 1:58 am
Re: What can we deduce about Toriyama's outlines by comparing the anime and the manga?
DBZ Macky wrote:
We have the line in the Anime where Vegeta makes Beerus use 10% of his power
Wasnt that a mis-translation? Didnt he actually say 1%?
- DBZ Macky
- Advanced Regular
- Posts: 1104
- Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2016 1:29 pm
- Location: Delhi NCR, India
- Contact:
Re: What can we deduce about Toriyama's outlines by comparing the anime and the manga?
Nope, pretty much the opposite, actually. The original Japanese version had the 10% line or "ichi-wari". The speedsubs translated it as 1%.iAnimationLover_ wrote:Wasnt that a mis-translation? Didnt he actually say 1%?DBZ Macky wrote: We have the line in the Anime where Vegeta makes Beerus use 10% of his power
So 10% is accurate.
Jinzoningen MULE wrote:You're in the DB community, it's always a power level thread to someone.
- iAnimationLover_
- Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
- Posts: 378
- Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2016 1:58 am
Re: What can we deduce about Toriyama's outlines by comparing the anime and the manga?
DBZ Macky wrote:Nope, pretty much the opposite, actually. The original Japanese version had the 10% line or "ichi-wari". The speedsubs translated it as 1%.iAnimationLover_ wrote:Wasnt that a mis-translation? Didnt he actually say 1%?DBZ Macky wrote: We have the line in the Anime where Vegeta makes Beerus use 10% of his power
So 10% is accurate.
Alright
Re: What can we deduce about Toriyama's outlines by comparing the anime and the manga?
Things we know:
Base Goku/Vegeta<Final form Frost/Piccolo<SSJ Vegeta/Goku
Frost is strongest but Goku can at least touch him in base.
Trunks gets a power up of some kind and is comparable to Goku/Vegeta
Dabura/Trunks fight was tough
Vegeta is supposed to at some point both beat on Black and lose to him. Anime made vegeta suddenly get a lot stronger, manga made Black possible hold back.
Black at some point allows someone to beat on him to get stronger. Seems to be Vegeta in the manga and Goku in the anime. Although both has Black get SSR from Vegeta.
Black is really strong. Zamasu, not so much.
Goku never kissed Chichi?? Maybe but he also don't forget things in the manga.
Senzu beans doesn't make it to the battlefield for whatever reason.
Vegeta and Trunks train together.
Base Goku/Vegeta<Final form Frost/Piccolo<SSJ Vegeta/Goku
Frost is strongest but Goku can at least touch him in base.
Trunks gets a power up of some kind and is comparable to Goku/Vegeta
Dabura/Trunks fight was tough
Vegeta is supposed to at some point both beat on Black and lose to him. Anime made vegeta suddenly get a lot stronger, manga made Black possible hold back.
Black at some point allows someone to beat on him to get stronger. Seems to be Vegeta in the manga and Goku in the anime. Although both has Black get SSR from Vegeta.
Black is really strong. Zamasu, not so much.
Goku never kissed Chichi?? Maybe but he also don't forget things in the manga.
Senzu beans doesn't make it to the battlefield for whatever reason.
Vegeta and Trunks train together.
Re: What can we deduce about Toriyama's outlines by comparing the anime and the manga?
I think these plot points are simply "Vegeta fights Black. Black lets Vegeta beat him up before powering up and defeating him."TheMikado wrote:Vegeta is supposed to at some point both beat on Black and lose to him. Anime made vegeta suddenly get a lot stronger, manga made Black possible hold back.
Black at some point allows someone to beat on him to get stronger.
In the anime, it would be the equivalent of base Black toying with Vegeta, then going Rosé.
- TheUltimateNinja
- I Live Here
- Posts: 4020
- Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2016 12:17 pm
Re: What can we deduce about Toriyama's outlines by comparing the anime and the manga?
This is why you never place an upper limit on a character's power when you're not sure how strong you want them to be. Such things may make sense at the time (Neither of those really make sense, but whatever), but could completely screw you later on.DBZ Macky wrote:"Include a 10% line and fuck up the power scale"
-Toriyama Akira's Outline, 2015
We have the line in the Anime where Vegeta makes Beerus use 10% of his power and then in the Manga, we have SS Goku faring better than SSB Vegeta at 10%, essentially making SSB a ~500x "multiplier".
I don't know how Toyo thought making SSBlue only 10x stronger than SSJ was a good idea, though. Since there's no Kaioken in the manga, SSBlue is probably at least somewhat close to Beerus in terms of power, let's say maybe 66%, in that case Vegetto would easily stomp Beerus like he's nothing using only SSJ.
Re: What can we deduce about Toriyama's outlines by comparing the anime and the manga?
But it makes rageta make more sense at leastTheUltimateNinja wrote:This is why you never place an upper limit on a character's power when you're not sure how strong you want them to be. Such things may make sense at the time (Neither of those really make sense, but whatever), but could completely screw you later on.DBZ Macky wrote:"Include a 10% line and fuck up the power scale"
-Toriyama Akira's Outline, 2015
We have the line in the Anime where Vegeta makes Beerus use 10% of his power and then in the Manga, we have SS Goku faring better than SSB Vegeta at 10%, essentially making SSB a ~500x "multiplier".
I don't know how Toyo thought making SSBlue only 10x stronger than SSJ was a good idea, though. Since there's no Kaioken in the manga, SSBlue is probably at least somewhat close to Beerus in terms of power, let's say maybe 66%, in that case Vegetto would easily stomp Beerus like he's nothing using only SSJ.
Re: What can we deduce about Toriyama's outlines by comparing the anime and the manga?
my gosh the power scaling is all over the place in DB super manga and rageta that scene made no sense whatsoeverTheMikado wrote:But it makes rageta make more sense at leastTheUltimateNinja wrote:This is why you never place an upper limit on a character's power when you're not sure how strong you want them to be. Such things may make sense at the time (Neither of those really make sense, but whatever), but could completely screw you later on.DBZ Macky wrote:"Include a 10% line and fuck up the power scale"
-Toriyama Akira's Outline, 2015
We have the line in the Anime where Vegeta makes Beerus use 10% of his power and then in the Manga, we have SS Goku faring better than SSB Vegeta at 10%, essentially making SSB a ~500x "multiplier".
I don't know how Toyo thought making SSBlue only 10x stronger than SSJ was a good idea, though. Since there's no Kaioken in the manga, SSBlue is probably at least somewhat close to Beerus in terms of power, let's say maybe 66%, in that case Vegetto would easily stomp Beerus like he's nothing using only SSJ.
Mostly active on discord.
Re: What can we deduce about Toriyama's outlines by comparing the anime and the manga?
I don't know anyone else who thinks that SSB is x10 SSJ though. It was never stated as such.
Re: What can we deduce about Toriyama's outlines by comparing the anime and the manga?
Hit easily defeats a weaken SSB Vegeta. SSJ Goku and Hit are equal, with Hit barely having the advantage, this was stated and demonstrated in the fight itself. Since Vegeta was at 10%, this makes full-power SSB Vegeta only 10x stronger than SSJ Goku.TheMikado wrote:I don't know anyone else who thinks that SSB is x10 SSJ though. It was never stated as such.
The Hit fight is a complete mess in both mediums.
Re: What can we deduce about Toriyama's outlines by comparing the anime and the manga?
This doesn't make sense because SSG would have demolished Hit if that's the case. Why would he even need to go SSB if he was both physically stronger and could break his Time skip by a wide margin?Doctor. wrote:Hit easily defeats a weaken SSB Vegeta. SSJ Goku and Hit are equal, with Hit barely having the advantage, this was stated and demonstrated in the fight itself. Since Vegeta was at 10%, this makes full-power SSB Vegeta only 10x stronger than SSJ Goku.TheMikado wrote:I don't know anyone else who thinks that SSB is x10 SSJ though. It was never stated as such.
The Hit fight is a complete mess in both mediums.
Re: What can we deduce about Toriyama's outlines by comparing the anime and the manga?
Just proving Toyotaro's incompetence.TheMikado wrote:This doesn't make sense because SSG would have demolished Hit if that's the case.
Hit wasn't at full power before Goku went SSG. Doesn't really make a difference, SSG Goku > SSJ Goku > Suppressed Hit > SSB VegetaTheMikado wrote:Why would he even need to go SSB if he was both physically stronger and could break his Time skip by a wide margin?
Re: What can we deduce about Toriyama's outlines by comparing the anime and the manga?
Ok...? I'm just saying logically people keep misinterpreting an ambiguous line and stating it as fact when basic logic will be enough to determine that was not what it meant at all.Doctor. wrote:Just proving Toyotaro's incompetence.TheMikado wrote:This doesn't make sense because SSG would have demolished Hit if that's the case.
Hit wasn't at full power before Goku went SSG.TheMikado wrote:Why would he even need to go SSB if he was both physically stronger and could break his Time skip by a wide margin?
Re: What can we deduce about Toriyama's outlines by comparing the anime and the manga?
Ambiguous? Now you're just damage controlling, Beerus clearly stated Super Saiyan Goku was stronger and Hit only kept up because Goku lost stamina countering the time-skip. There's nothing to misinterpret here, it's clear as day what's being portrayed. Super Saiyan Goku was physically stronger than the suppressed Hit who beat SSB Vegeta at 10%. Which means that Blue is around a 10x increase over Super Saiyan.TheMikado wrote:Ok...? I'm just saying logically people keep misinterpreting an ambiguous line and stating it as fact when basic logic will be enough to determine that was not what it meant at all.
It's really clear as day.
Re: What can we deduce about Toriyama's outlines by comparing the anime and the manga?
Except you're not making the link between SSJ and SSB. While can't they both be stronger with SSB even at 10% being substantially stronger? No one said Vegeta was weaker than SSJ Goku.Doctor. wrote:Ambiguous? Now you're just damage controlling, Beerus clearly stated Super Saiyan Goku was stronger and Hit only kept up because Goku lost stamina countering the time-skip. There's nothing to misinterpret here, it's clear as day what's being portrayed. Super Saiyan Goku was physically stronger than the suppressed Hit who beat SSB Vegeta at 10%. Which means that Blue is around a 10x increase over Super Saiyan.TheMikado wrote:Ok...? I'm just saying logically people keep misinterpreting an ambiguous line and stating it as fact when basic logic will be enough to determine that was not what it meant at all.
It's really clear as day.
- Lord Beerus
- Namekian Warrior
- Posts: 21389
- Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2014 5:20 pm
- Location: A temple on a giant tree
- Contact:
Re: What can we deduce about Toriyama's outlines by comparing the anime and the manga?
Toriyama's did not think his plot outline through considering the both the anime and manga fumble the Hit fight, with the anime being the lesser of the two evils, and include the nonsensical Time Paradox origin of Goku Black. He's also show he's not above dumb gags, even if they can interpreted as being detrimental to a character, such as Goku never kissing Chi Chi.
Spoiler: