The_Destroyer wrote:I blame Roshi for the poor treatment of Krillin and Tien in the ToP on both mediums. It’s clear that they made the later two look bad just so Roshi can look better. Fuck Roshi, shouldn’t be in this tournament and shouldn’t have been in RoF. The 3rd human spot in the human trio rightfully belongs to Yamcha, Roshi can fuck off.
Out of the 3 Earthlings, as shown in the anime at least, Roshi is the only one with the techniques to actually spar with (and potentially defeat) Frost. Even if Krillin wasn't caught off guard in the anime, nothing in Krillin's arsenal could have been a match against Frost, who again, is AT LEAST Namek's Final Form Frieza (and possibly even Perfect Cell Level or more) in terms of power.
And no, even if Krilin had used Solar Flare to blind him, Frost would have been able to sense his ki (or just hear him). And even if Krilin managed to land a hit, it would have been 0 effective against Frost, who again, is REALLY powerful.
Just want to say, that is an extremely low bar for Frost.
The_Destroyer wrote:I blame Roshi for the poor treatment of Krillin and Tien in the ToP on both mediums. It’s clear that they made the later two look bad just so Roshi can look better. Fuck Roshi, shouldn’t be in this tournament and shouldn’t have been in RoF. The 3rd human spot in the human trio rightfully belongs to Yamcha, Roshi can fuck off.
No character is to blame for Krillin and Tien doing nothing. If Toriyama, Toei, and Toyo wanted to do something completely awesome with them, they would have. Roshi being there or not has nothing to do with it and it's really old how fans feel the need to scapegoat a character because their favorite didn't get prefer treatment. It isn't like the writers sat down and went, 'since we're getting Roshi a bunch of shine, we can dump Krillin and Tien'.
Last edited by HeroR on Sat Mar 17, 2018 12:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.
JazzMazz wrote:Kuririn and Tien didn't recieve any build-up for them doing well, Kuririn is stated to be out of touch, and Tien wasn't even recruited on panel. I don't see how people could expect big things from them.
Eliminating two warriors from the get go is a good idea though. It leaves universe 7 with some kind of numbers disadvantage and actually makes the field feel somewhat competitive in comparison to the anime, where universe 7 literally annihilated everyone easily.
Also, hopefully Roshi's out next chapter, espicially considering how closely eliminated they were in conjunction to the anime.
Having early eliminations actually helps create a sense of tension, espicially if they're behind other universes in terms of numbers, or merely neck and neck with them.
In other words, there eliminations do serve a point in progressing and benefitting the story.
Can't pass full judgment yet, but I'm looking forward to it based on the outline.
But the manga fixes everything!
While I agree with most of your points, Toyo could have given them something. They didn't even need to knock out someone, just have them do a rescue of a teammate or something. The way he wrote them here U7 might as well brought Jaco and Monaka.
In the anime, U7 lost someone as early as 98 while U6 kept their full team until 103. In fact, almost everyone had a full team outside of U10 by the time Krillin went out.
Well, 99 was when U7 lost someone, universe 10 was heavily weakened, and universe 4 recieved heavy losses at that point.
I agree, that seeing them fight would or prove even slightly useful for their teammates would be fine, however, whose to say they didn't receive such moments? The manga hasn't been released yet, so I'll wait a little bit.
HeroR wrote:
Raphael_Z wrote:
The_Destroyer wrote:I blame Roshi for the poor treatment of Krillin and Tien in the ToP on both mediums. It’s clear that they made the later two look bad just so Roshi can look better. Fuck Roshi, shouldn’t be in this tournament and shouldn’t have been in RoF. The 3rd human spot in the human trio rightfully belongs to Yamcha, Roshi can fuck off.
Out of the 3 Earthlings, as shown in the anime at least, Roshi is the only one with the techniques to actually spar with (and potentially defeat) Frost. Even if Krillin wasn't caught off guard in the anime, nothing in Krillin's arsenal could have been a match against Frost, who again, is AT LEAST Namek's Final Form Frieza (and possibly even Perfect Cell Level or more) in terms of power.
And no, even if Krilin had used Solar Flare to blind him, Frost would have been able to sense his ki (or just hear him). And even if Krilin managed to land a hit, it would have been 0 effective against Frost, who again, is REALLY powerful.
Just want to say, that is an extremely low bar for Frost.
Well, it would make sense(for the Cell thing), since Frost isn't really shown to be that strong even in comparison to just regular Super Saiyan Goku and Vegeta, who to what we've seen, didn't get stupidly stronger in those forms after BOG, with majority of their power seeming to come from the God transformations.
Last edited by JazzMazz on Sat Mar 17, 2018 12:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
While I agree with most of your points, Toyo could have given them something. They didn't even need to knock out someone, just have them do a rescue of a teammate or something. The way he wrote them here U7 might as well brought Jaco and Monaka.
In the anime, U7 lost someone as early as 98 while U6 kept their full team until 103. In fact, almost everyone had a full team outside of U10 by the time Krillin went out.
Well, 99 was when U7 lost someone, universe 10 was heavily weakened, and universe 4 recieved heavy losses at that point.
I agree, that seeing them fight would or prove even slightly useful for their teammates would be fine, however, whose to say they didn't receive such moments? The manga hasn't been released yet, so I'll wait a little bit.[/quote]
I honestly forgot U4 and U10 was made as the 'job' universe. But in the manga, I think every universe already took several loses outside of U11. Correct me if I'm wrong. So U7 don't have a number disadvantage.
True.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.
It just doesn't make sense, honestly, how Roshi is now the top one. Apart from the Mafuba, I don't see why he should be able to hold his own against someone at all. They make the whole "strongest earthling" title for Krillin being irrelevant and pointless right now.
Frost kicking some serious ass with Freeza is definitely a positive, as it actually shows there partnership resulting in something. Also, it makes far more sense for the two tyrannical assholes to eliminate a universe in comparison to Goku and Vegeta.
I will say though, even though I did enjoy how Frost was handled in 107 of the anime, with him eliminating weakened fighters, I feel like him being more active isn't necessarily a bad thing if they flesh out his relationship with Freeza, instead of Vegeta.
JazzMazz wrote:Frost kicking some serious ass with Freeza is definitely a positive, as it actually shows there partnership resulting in something. Also, it makes far more sense for the two tyrannical assholes to eliminate a universe in comparison to Goku and Vegeta.
I will say though, even though I did enjoy how Frost was handled in 107 of the anime, with him eliminating weakened fighters, I feel like him being more active isn't necessarily a bad thing if they flesh out his relationship with Freeza, instead of Vegeta.
Yeah that is at least a positive making this chapters less horrible just frustrating.I will wait for the leaks to see how the execution is but hearing this makes me happy, maybe we will get a better ribrianne and Toppo at a cost of two classic characters.
dragonball0900 wrote:It just doesn't make sense, honestly, how Roshi is now the top one. Apart from the Mafuba, I don't see why he should be able to hold his own against someone at all. They make the whole "strongest earthling" title for Krillin being irrelevant and pointless right now.
It wasn't like Roshi was taking on the powerhouses. He purposely fought people within his level and had gimmicks that could harm the team of meatheads. The moment Roshi went against someone way out of his league, he got smashed.
JazzMazz wrote:Frost kicking some serious ass with Freeza is definitely a positive, as it actually shows there partnership resulting in something. Also, it makes far more sense for the two tyrannical assholes to eliminate a universe in comparison to Goku and Vegeta.
I will say though, even though I did enjoy how Frost was handled in 107 of the anime, with him eliminating weakened fighters, I feel like him being more active isn't necessarily a bad thing if they flesh out his relationship with Freeza, instead of Vegeta.
While it's true Vegeta taking out U9 didn't make a lot of story sense in the anime, it did for Goku since U9 had a personal grudge against Goku and even said they would personally wipe U7 out. That and the whole Freeza assassin thing. In the manga, it wouldn't make sense for U9 to attack U7 since they never fought.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.
HeroR wrote:
While it's true Vegeta taking out U9 didn't make a lot of story sense in the anime, it did for Goku since U9 had a personal grudge against Goku and even said they would personally wipe U7 out. That and the whole Freeza assassin thing. In the manga, it wouldn't make sense for U9 to attack U7 since they never fought.
Yeah Gohan would have fullfilled the role better than Vegeta in that episode which is even weirder that we see Gohan tangling with the trio here despite having 0 history with them .
I seem to be the only one who loves what Toyo did with the humans. It adds a touch more realism when our fodder can be eliminated as easily as another universes fodder. I actually wouldn’t mind if one of our strong ones also got eiliminated a touch early if they got caught by surprise.
Anyway, even though I do like how easily it seems Ten and Krillin got knocked out, (I mean they were up against somebody who is a lot stronger than Freeza from the Freeza arc, and we know how an in form Kuririn was handled there, along with Gohan, Piccolo and Vegeta) shit like this happening highlights that Goten and Trunks shoulda been there. In fact it annoys me that we had no other reasonably powerful alien.
I feel like this really highlights the difference in approach between Toei and Toyo. We had that interview with the producers last week where they made a point to say that Toriyama included the humans on the list instead of stronger characters Goten and Trunks, meaning (in their interpretation) they had to come up with creative ways to utilise these weaker characters and make their inclusions worthwhile.
Toyo meanwhile? "Meh, to the grinders with 'em!"
I'll be frank, I like Toei's take more. I've seen some praising the closer adherence to power levels, but that doesn't make a story better. That was always the worst thing about Dragon Ball Z, it shouldn't be held as something worth preserving. The show had the right idea with the humans, even Tien. It's as simple as having them use some of their creative techniques (most of which were rendered moot by power creep back in the day) to rack up a couple of wins and justify their appearance before they inevitably get smoked.
Xeogran wrote:Disappointing how both Toei and Toyo gave them no love, despite the ToP poster showing them in a cool light. False hype..
Krillin and Tien got something in the anime. In the manga, they got outright jobbed out before they could do anything.
But that's the problem with the anime: its more and more about fanservice and letting characters get a moment t shine--because of hype. Because it'll have people talking about it rather than promoting any sort of cohesive storytelling.
I'd rather have those badass moments earned than just a gimmie to placate fan boys.
I almost never comment on a chapter until its out in full, and i'm most definitely not the "oh it did not happen the way I wanted it to, so it sucks" type of fan.
But i will say, i really did like the way Frost held a grudge against Vegeta from the beating he received in the Universe 6 tournament. Looks like that won't be explored in the this chapter.
I think the reason Krillin and Tien were given zero shit is that Akira/Toei/Toyotaro simply think that the fans don't like them., and they are waste of time. Perhaps they think of what would make the fans satisfied (which is more Goku and Vegeta as they believe), and not what would be good writing. This is not too related, but it kinds of remind me when BoZ director was asked "Why you didn't include GT characters" and he simply said I thought no one like GT or something like that lol.
On the other hand, Roshi is obviously there for nostalgia reasons.
OverHeaven wrote:I think the reason Krillin and Tien were given zero shit is that Akira/Toei/Toyotaro simply think that the fans don't like them., and they are waste of time. Perhaps they think of what would make the fans satisfied (which is more Goku and Vegeta as they believe), and not what would be good writing. This is not too related, but it kinds of remind me when BoZ director was asked "Why you didn't include GT characters" and he simply said I thought no one like GT or something like that lol.
On the other hand, Roshi is obviously there for nostalgia reasons.
If that was the case they would have just put Goten and Trunks. maybe its time fans express their interest in these characters and send a strong message. Tweet out to Toyotaro
OverHeaven wrote:I think the reason Krillin and Tien were given zero shit is that Akira/Toei/Toyotaro simply think that the fans don't like them., and they are waste of time. Perhaps they think of what would make the fans satisfied (which is more Goku and Vegeta as they believe), and not what would be good writing. This is not too related, but it kinds of remind me when BoZ director was asked "Why you didn't include GT characters" and he simply said I thought no one like GT or something like that lol.
On the other hand, Roshi is obviously there for nostalgia reasons.
If that was the case they would have just put Goten and Trunks. maybe its time fans express their interest in these characters and send a strong message. Tweet out to Toyotaro
OverHeaven wrote:I think the reason Krillin and Tien were given zero shit is that Akira/Toei/Toyotaro simply think that the fans don't like them., and they are waste of time. Perhaps they think of what would make the fans satisfied (which is more Goku and Vegeta as they believe), and not what would be good writing. This is not too related, but it kinds of remind me when BoZ director was asked "Why you didn't include GT characters" and he simply said I thought no one like GT or something like that lol.
On the other hand, Roshi is obviously there for nostalgia reasons.
If that was the case they would have just put Goten and Trunks. maybe its time fans express their interest in these characters and send a strong message. Tweet out to Toyotaro
That is a horribly immature and petty thing to do.
It was petty when fans bashed the anime staff, and its petty now.
I think people that do this seriously need to reflect on their actions and grow up.
EDIT: Not to mention, its a completely idiotic thing to do.
I kinda expected that for krillin,but not for tenshinhan.Now,looking at both versions I would say again that a battle royale with eighty unintroduced warriors at once was a bad idea from beginning.Even,one piece does not do it.
Why power levels are important?
Spoiler:
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
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It adds a touch more realism when our fodder can be eliminated as easily as another universes fodder. I actually wouldn’t mind if one of our strong ones also got eiliminated a touch early if they got caught by surprise. 
