Non-arguments and manipulation.

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Jinzoningen MULE
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Non-arguments and manipulation.

Post by Jinzoningen MULE » Thu Jul 27, 2017 3:27 am

Was planning on typing this tomorrow, but I can't sleep, so what the hell!

I'd like to make a point that I think the entire community should benefit from. No one here seems to know how to make a case for anything, and it makes conversation quite dull. I'll skim over examples of this in yesterday's infamous thread in order:
And frankly, no, it's your hostility towards this topic that's embarrassing.
Hostility is not an argument.
I think General Blue is considered an offensive stereotype in this case. Still a great character. In the manga.
Offense is not an argument
No, General Blue is a negative Stereotype, 100 percent and with zero ambiguity. Your atitude shows exactly why representation is necesary. NO, not all gay people are hyper flamboyant stereotypes. Most Gay people are not Hyper Flamboyant stereotypes. Same goes double for Gay people being peadophiles. STEREOTYPES DO NOT REFLECT REALITY!
Misspelled words are not an argument, and irrelevant, hyperemotional tangents are not an argument.
VegettoEX wrote:
Jinzoningen Mule wrote:Get that chip off your shoulder and learn how to have a discussion, dude.
This is not the way to have a discussion.
Extremely selective, unprofessionally biased moderation is not an argument.
You know how much sexual education I had during the 00s? 0. None. Nothing. And I have a younger cousin who is in, I believe first or second year of High School, and they don't teach anything of sexual education.
Lies are not arguments. Public schools have taught sex-ed for a long time in most western countries, the only way this is possible is if the teachers were in breach, the parents explicitly denied access, or the poster didn't have public education.
And you're constant referring to representation and diversity of a cancer isn't acceptable. Please, stop it.
Misrepresentations and/or illiteracy are not arguments.
no matter which side of this conversation you're on, do you really think snarking to the mod is gonna get you anywhere?
Authority is not an argument.
VegettoEX wrote:There are so many ignorant comments leading up to and culminating in this statement that I'm at a loss for further words.
Emotional reactions to jokes and calling something "ignorant" without bothering to make a case does not qualify as an argument.
VegettoEX wrote:Please go back and read the comments in this thread from gay people discussing their personal experience with representation in media. Use that as a starting point, and do some additional reading outside of this community.
Vaguely referencing anonymous 3rd-hand anecdotes is not an argument.
VegettoEX wrote:Freedom of speech is the right (in some countries) to speak out against your government without fear of retaliation. We are not your government and we don't have to put up with hatred.
"Hatred" or "Hate speech" (Whatever that means) and a discouragement of the principle of freedom of speech is pathetic. One couldn't make their lack of character more obvious. Oh, and it's not an argument either.
"As long as we're not dead last when it comes to respecting human dignity, then we're doing good enough!"
Straw-mans aren't arguments, you at least have to go somewhere with your false premise.
Well when the US president makes statements like this, then wherever being first place or not is irrelevant.
The President of the United States is not an argument.
I'm not sure how it looks in that pile of sand you've buried your head in, but no, in the real world, we're still far from the finish line that is "actually respecting human dignity". We're far enough away from it that we ourselves are never likely to see that finish line, nor are our children, or our children's children.
Insults based on flimsy ground are not arguments.
At work, so I'll keep this terse. I am dissapointed that a bunch of grown ups on a forum to discuss children's cartoons and comics (itself a non traditional life style) are actively burning bridges with their fellow minorities by brushing off their trials. What arrogance and ignorance leads you to think you won't be next? That the Jennifer in a man's body doesn't understand the demeaning you feel when someone shames you for your feelings? Holy cow, folks.
A reductionist comment about "bridge-burning" (which no one was doing) is not an argument.
This seems like a great place to leave things.
Locking a thread because you liked the last comment and didn't want anyone to respond isn't an argument, and it's absolutely disgusting.

It's very telling that someone is so insecure they feel they need to abuse their moderator power to prevent certain thoughts from getting through.


GET THE IDEA?! It doesn't matter whether you feel morally justified or have moderator power. If you're actively detracting from discussions, you're making the forums worse!

Christ! It's embarrassing that I, someone who's posting quality could be graded a B- on my absolute best day, is having to point out that VegettoEX and Hujio, the guys who pay the bills, the guys who are supposedly running this place, are in active violation of the basic principles of discourse... Like, what are you even doing? You obviously aren't really interested in discussions that fall out of your very narrow purview, so why don't you leave overseeing them to moderators that have a vested interest in being remotely competent? That's rhetorical, by the way, I already know exactly why.

Special credit to Doctor., Zephyr, Gaffer Tape, and Kunzait_83 for actually not being totally terrible and unproductive in yesterday's discussion. Even those of you who said stupid things also bothered to make cases for some of the things you said. I would've loved to address your points at the end of the thread, Kunzait_83, because I did have a lot to say about it. Unfortunately, the Kanzenshuu staff seem to have so little faith in your ideas that they couldn't bare to even risk them being disturbed.

Anyway, to the point I was making, when it comes to rational discourse, you have to state your point, back that up with something, and follow your evidence to a conclusion. That's what we call an "argument", and it's fundamental to civil discourse. Likewise, when someone makes an argument that you don't like, you don't get to respond with:
Nuh-uh, X is Y, 100%% and with no ambigulity. Ure atitude shows exactly why Z is Q. CAPITAL LETERS GIVE ME AUTHORITY ON THIS MATTER REEEEE!
This line of thinking is retarded beyond all reason, and it's what many members here will default to. No, you have to either provide a counter-argument or you have to knock the legs out from the existing one. Since the Kanzenshuu staff don't know how this works, it's understandable that some younger members might not have known better, but if you're above the age of 15, this shouldn't be hard. I'm not exempting myself either, I'm a total bitch, I have rampant mood-swings, and when the pendulum goes the wrong way, I tend to shit-post. Still, I do try to construct reasonable arguments most of the time, which is more than I can say about the more petty staff, who do little more than police discussions they have nothing to do with, and they don't even do that consistently. The only three members with moderator status who contribute to conversations (a.k.a. what the forums are for) to any significant degree are Ajay, Kaboom, and TheDevilsCorpse. Grateful for them, glad they're here. Ajay especially has been exceedingly helpful, I recall several times when I've hastily given out incorrect information, only for him to come along and correct me, and at least once, put me in my place. He's also the one responsible for my ongoing interest in animation. Seriously, I'm so thankful for you three, who are actually competent enough to have discussions and make arguments. I'm sure we have disagreements, I'm sure that none of you even agree with this post, but you guys are the staff for the forums as far as I'm concerned.

TL;DR: For the love of God, learn how to discuss, Kanzenshuu. This isn't hard. :evil:

Rant/Correction over...


For the one or two people who might care (A.K.A. leave now or cringe): Unfortunately, with the recent revelations of the true distasteful nature of the staff here, I can't, in good conscience, support this website anymore. Not until this changes. My heart hasn't been in any of the conversations for quite some time now, it was a long time coming, and yesterday's events finally gave me a legitimate catalyst. I do recommend that if you find any legitimacy in what I've said in here, you consider the implications of that, and perhaps reconsider your own compliance in the shameful behavior on the part of the staff. That's not out of spite, they don't want you regardless!

Consider this my resignation? Anyway, if anyone wants to contact me, you can probably find my social media. It's been a good year, what a shame it couldn't end on good terms due to the poor behavior of two insignificant people. :problem:

-FINIS-

:wave:
Retired.

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Re: Non-arguments and manipulation.

Post by JazzMazz » Thu Jul 27, 2017 7:34 am

:cry: Sad to see you go, really enjoyed reading your posts.

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Re: Non-arguments and manipulation.

Post by TheMikado » Thu Jul 27, 2017 7:36 am

Come on this is petty, was it really worth it?

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Re: Non-arguments and manipulation.

Post by Doctor. » Thu Jul 27, 2017 9:24 am

The discussion was getting massively off-topic but Mike and the Kanzenshuu staff have usually done a good job of giving multiple warnings to stay on-topic before locking a thread. That didn't happen this time. The moment the discussion started questioning the boundaries of what's politically correct, it was the moment the thread got locked, no warning to stay on-topic. And this always happens with these kinds of threads, every single time. I don't get it. Are the staff expecting an echo chamber? That wouldn't allow for productive discussion. If they already know these kinds of opinions are gonna pop up anyway, opinions they obviously do not tolerate, then why keep allowing these threads to be made in the first place? Allow for the threads and then engage in the discussion that may arise or ban these threads and keep living in your own little bubble, but pick one. Allowing for the thread "hoping" that it will have a "positive" outcome, only to lock the thread, with a few bans for good measure, the moment someone posts something that happens to trigger a certain button is not only stupid but completely unprofessional. It comes off as wanting to hear a certain, specific response rather than actually wanting to engage in discussion.

But, of course, it's still a private website, I'm just giving constructive criticism. I suspect this thread will get locked soon enough.

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Re: Non-arguments and manipulation.

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Thu Jul 27, 2017 10:18 am

Doctor. wrote:The discussion was getting massively off-topic but Mike and the Kanzenshuu staff have usually done a good job of giving multiple warnings to stay on-topic before locking a thread. That didn't happen this time. The moment the discussion started questioning the boundaries of what's politically correct, it was the moment the thread got locked, no warning to stay on-topic. And this always happens with these kinds of threads, every single time. I don't get it. Are the staff expecting an echo chamber? That wouldn't allow for productive discussion. If they already know these kinds of opinions are gonna pop up anyway, opinions they obviously do not tolerate, then why keep allowing these threads to be made in the first place? Allow for the threads and then engage in the discussion that may arise or ban these threads and keep living in your own little bubble, but pick one. Allowing for the thread "hoping" that it will have a "positive" outcome, only to lock the thread, with a few bans for good measure, the moment someone posts something that happens to trigger a certain button is not only stupid but completely unprofessional. It comes off as wanting to hear a certain, specific response rather than actually wanting to engage in discussion.

But, of course, it's still a private website, I'm just giving constructive criticism. I suspect this thread will get locked soon enough.
We are not toddlers we don't need warnings all the time we should know that hey this is a Dragon Ball forum stay on topic, that thread was massively off topic the most I have seen on Kanzenshuu, usually things round back but not there.

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Re: Non-arguments and manipulation.

Post by Doctor. » Thu Jul 27, 2017 10:24 am

Baggie_Saiyan wrote:
Doctor. wrote:The discussion was getting massively off-topic but Mike and the Kanzenshuu staff have usually done a good job of giving multiple warnings to stay on-topic before locking a thread. That didn't happen this time. The moment the discussion started questioning the boundaries of what's politically correct, it was the moment the thread got locked, no warning to stay on-topic. And this always happens with these kinds of threads, every single time. I don't get it. Are the staff expecting an echo chamber? That wouldn't allow for productive discussion. If they already know these kinds of opinions are gonna pop up anyway, opinions they obviously do not tolerate, then why keep allowing these threads to be made in the first place? Allow for the threads and then engage in the discussion that may arise or ban these threads and keep living in your own little bubble, but pick one. Allowing for the thread "hoping" that it will have a "positive" outcome, only to lock the thread, with a few bans for good measure, the moment someone posts something that happens to trigger a certain button is not only stupid but completely unprofessional. It comes off as wanting to hear a certain, specific response rather than actually wanting to engage in discussion.

But, of course, it's still a private website, I'm just giving constructive criticism. I suspect this thread will get locked soon enough.
We are not toddlers we don't need warnings all the time we should know that hey this is a Dragon Ball forum stay on topic, that thread was massively off topic the most I have seen on Kanzenshuu, usually things round back but not there.
That's not really the main point, though. The main point is that this always happens with these threads.

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Re: Non-arguments and manipulation.

Post by GigaDrill » Thu Jul 27, 2017 11:02 am

Doctor. wrote:The discussion was getting massively off-topic but Mike and the Kanzenshuu staff have usually done a good job of giving multiple warnings to stay on-topic before locking a thread. That didn't happen this time. The moment the discussion started questioning the boundaries of what's politically correct, it was the moment the thread got locked, no warning to stay on-topic.
Wasn't it because of how utterly toxic the thread became? From an outsider's point of view, the likelihood of arguments staying civil seemed extremely low, so the thread was justified in being immediately locked before the flaming could become worse.

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Re: Non-arguments and manipulation.

Post by Doctor. » Thu Jul 27, 2017 11:09 am

GigaDrill wrote:
Doctor. wrote:The discussion was getting massively off-topic but Mike and the Kanzenshuu staff have usually done a good job of giving multiple warnings to stay on-topic before locking a thread. That didn't happen this time. The moment the discussion started questioning the boundaries of what's politically correct, it was the moment the thread got locked, no warning to stay on-topic.
Wasn't it because of how utterly toxic the thread became? From an outsider's point of view, the likelihood of arguments staying civil seemed extremely low, so the thread was justified in being immediately locked before the flaming could become worse.
Account strikes should have been given appropriately, if that's the case. That just leads back to my main point: all of these discussions end up "toxic," it should be common sense. So make a decision: let people discuss whatever they have to discuss and give out account strikes and bans whenever appropriate or just ban these threads entirely if the staff can't handle them.

Pussyfooting around the issue solves nothing.

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Re: Non-arguments and manipulation.

Post by LuckyCat » Thu Jul 27, 2017 11:58 am

Thing is, you're entering a Dragonball forum made to discuss Dragonball. If mods curtail you for not following the basics, I don't think that makes them look bad. There were some interesting points raised in said thread, but I think there's something to be said for self-moderation here.
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Re: Non-arguments and manipulation.

Post by Sailor Haumea » Thu Jul 27, 2017 12:12 pm

Okay, we'll see you next week. Same bat-time, same bat-channel!

In all seriousness, the thread was getting really heated. I'm glad it was closed.
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Re: Non-arguments and manipulation.

Post by Zephyr » Thu Jul 27, 2017 12:37 pm

The thread was an aggravating clusterfuck. It shouldn't even have been made so soon after some of the other recent, similar topics, and shouldn't have been allowed to stay open for as long as it did. This community on the whole is demonstrably incapable of engaging in these topics without it quickly spiraling out of control (not a remark of derision; I've seen very few communities which are capable).

When you come back, I'm more than willing to continue our part of the conversation via PMs, where things can be less chaotic. :thumbup:

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Re: Non-arguments and manipulation.

Post by omaro34 » Thu Jul 27, 2017 12:52 pm

I just skimmed over the thread. I highly disagree with some of the things you said regarding Muslims, disappointed I missed the thread. I never take offense to it however.

But come on, take a break for a while sure. But no need to leave for good over a thread leading to people getting upset. It's petty as fuck, and from what I've seen on your posts the last few months you're much better than this.
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Re: Non-arguments and manipulation.

Post by omaro34 » Thu Jul 27, 2017 1:07 pm

Doctor. wrote:The discussion was getting massively off-topic but Mike and the Kanzenshuu staff have usually done a good job of giving multiple warnings to stay on-topic before locking a thread. That didn't happen this time. The moment the discussion started questioning the boundaries of what's politically correct, it was the moment the thread got locked, no warning to stay on-topic. And this always happens with these kinds of threads, every single time. I don't get it. Are the staff expecting an echo chamber? That wouldn't allow for productive discussion. If they already know these kinds of opinions are gonna pop up anyway, opinions they obviously do not tolerate, then why keep allowing these threads to be made in the first place? Allow for the threads and then engage in the discussion that may arise or ban these threads and keep living in your own little bubble, but pick one. Allowing for the thread "hoping" that it will have a "positive" outcome, only to lock the thread, with a few bans for good measure, the moment someone posts something that happens to trigger a certain button is not only stupid but completely unprofessional. It comes off as wanting to hear a certain, specific response rather than actually wanting to engage in discussion.

But, of course, it's still a private website, I'm just giving constructive criticism. I suspect this thread will get locked soon enough.
Going over the thread, it felt like people were quoting others and not really responding, just stating their opinions that they already planned to write before they quoted the person they quoted.

It's a sensitive topic to some and I'm not surprised in the slightest it went the direction it ended up going.
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Re: Non-arguments and manipulation.

Post by Lord Beerus » Thu Jul 27, 2017 3:11 pm

It's shame you had to part way with Kanzenshuu like this, Jinzoningen MULE. I will miss you style of posts.

Until we meet again... :wave:

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Re: Non-arguments and manipulation.

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Thu Jul 27, 2017 4:20 pm

Doctor. wrote:
Baggie_Saiyan wrote:
Doctor. wrote:The discussion was getting massively off-topic but Mike and the Kanzenshuu staff have usually done a good job of giving multiple warnings to stay on-topic before locking a thread. That didn't happen this time. The moment the discussion started questioning the boundaries of what's politically correct, it was the moment the thread got locked, no warning to stay on-topic. And this always happens with these kinds of threads, every single time. I don't get it. Are the staff expecting an echo chamber? That wouldn't allow for productive discussion. If they already know these kinds of opinions are gonna pop up anyway, opinions they obviously do not tolerate, then why keep allowing these threads to be made in the first place? Allow for the threads and then engage in the discussion that may arise or ban these threads and keep living in your own little bubble, but pick one. Allowing for the thread "hoping" that it will have a "positive" outcome, only to lock the thread, with a few bans for good measure, the moment someone posts something that happens to trigger a certain button is not only stupid but completely unprofessional. It comes off as wanting to hear a certain, specific response rather than actually wanting to engage in discussion.

But, of course, it's still a private website, I'm just giving constructive criticism. I suspect this thread will get locked soon enough.
We are not toddlers we don't need warnings all the time we should know that hey this is a Dragon Ball forum stay on topic, that thread was massively off topic the most I have seen on Kanzenshuu, usually things round back but not there.
That's not really the main point, though. The main point is that this always happens with these threads.
It shouldn't the mod teams job to make sure everyone stays on topic, the thread was created in relation to DB yet Mr. MULE was the first to go completely off topic, as a user should be able to know hang on, I can't post here without get off topic so it will probably be best if I don't post. It is not that hard at all. The last time I checked the thread before locking there was somewhat discussion related to DB happening so I understand why it wasn't locked the staff gave us some credit in able to turn it around but evidently not. I don't think the staff should ban anytype of threads that would limit some discussion just because like as LuckyCat said people lack self-moderation. That is not fair at all.

This post reeks of MULE being pissy that he couldn't respond to Kunzait_83 despite the fact PM's exist... and announcing he is leaving cry me a F*cking river, this post shouldn't have been made public it's clear he has issues with VegettoEX & Hujio that should have been relegated to again PM'ing.

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Re: Non-arguments and manipulation.

Post by Hellspawn28 » Fri Jul 28, 2017 3:20 pm

Strange that someone said that they had no sexual education in the 2000's? I first took sex ed back in 2001 when I was 10 in the 5th grade. We also had to take it in Middle School and High School. I personally stay out of that thread seeing I tend to avoid these type of debates on the forum. I rather go somewhere else to talk about this stuff since I come to this site for Dragon Ball.
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Re: Non-arguments and manipulation.

Post by TheMikado » Fri Jul 28, 2017 4:33 pm

I have no horse in this race but the fact that this thread still exists at all should be enough evidence that this forum is no where close to a facist type group think venue that you see across the internet.

Nothing else to really contribute here.

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Re: Non-arguments and manipulation.

Post by floofychan333 » Mon Jul 31, 2017 11:26 pm

omaro34 wrote:I just skimmed over the thread. I highly disagree with some of the things you said regarding Muslims, disappointed I missed the thread. I never take offense to it however.

But come on, take a break for a while sure. But no need to leave for good over a thread leading to people getting upset. It's petty as fuck, and from what I've seen on your posts the last few months you're much better than this.
Yep...I saw on the language thread that you're a Somali speaker so I assume you're probably Muslim. I am sorry for the atrocious Islamophobic hate speech posted by certain users on this forum (not naming names) and I think it's appalling that anyone who comes here simply to discuss something they love should have to put up with discrimination and intolerance. I mean, lots of us, myself included, have had times in our lives where all we have had is Dragon Ball, and we shouldn't be harassed in our one solace. I had a time in my life where the world outside was cruel and seemingly working against me but I knew I could still come home and watch DB. I don't think I would have become the person I am now without Dragon Ball and I certainly wouldn't be having a solid life if some jerk had come along and ruined DB for me.
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Re: Non-arguments and manipulation.

Post by Luso Saiyan » Tue Aug 01, 2017 6:21 am

Jinzoningen MULE wrote:
VegettoEX wrote:Freedom of speech is the right (in some countries) to speak out against your government without fear of retaliation. We are not your government and we don't have to put up with hatred.
"Hatred" or "Hate speech" (Whatever that means) and a discouragement of the principle of freedom of speech is pathetic. One couldn't make their lack of character more obvious. Oh, and it's not an argument either.
Just a note on this:

Freedom of speech is not the right to "speak out against your government without fear of retaliation". Freedom of speech is the right to speak and express your opinion without fear or retaliation from the government. However, the right is not absolute since it can go against other equally important rights. Kanzenshuu is a private site/forum. You're only here because you agreed to respect the rules. Your freedom of speech is not being violated in a private forum, precisely because it's private. You don't have to be here, you came here willingly and knowing what the rules were. If I go to your house and you say that I can't say X or Y, my freedom of speech is not being violated either. Because it's your house, I don't have to be there and if I disagree with your rules I'm free to leave if I want to exercise my freedom of speech.

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