"(Super) Dragon Ball Heroes" Official Discussion Thread

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Rakurai
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Re: "(Super) Dragon Ball Heroes" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Rakurai » Sun Jul 14, 2019 6:34 pm

Grimlock wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 11:28 pm
Rakurai wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 8:28 pm
More interesting is that XGohan recognizes Garlic Jr.'s castle and XGoku recognizes Tapion.
It's easier to place the movies and Dragon Ball GT in the same dimension, rather than stating each one of them happens in a different one. Nice that Dimps thinks the same and provided even more official evidences.
Rakurai wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 8:28 pm
Really been liking XGoten's personality throughout SDBH, it's so serious, confident, and domineering, the Goten we all need but don't deserve.
If Goten "lacks transformations", it is compensated by having his own personality throughout Heroes games. It's really wonderful to see Goten being better used here, unlike in some other media... GmGoken would probably like it too.
Well, Daizenshuu 6 (or was it 7?) does place most of the films in different dimensions. Hard to say really, but even tho we can sort of piece the Time Patrol's backgrounds based on hints and references, it's still rather vague and there's really no explicit confirmation. For example, even tho we know XGoku has met Tapion before, it's not exactly clear that XGohan/Vegeta/Goten have. Certainly, XTrunks shouldn't have unless during his apocalyptic timeline he met Tapion. It's like what Cipher mentioned previously somewhere in the thread, the Time Patrol are the modern incarnation of classic DBZ/GT without getting too much into the specifics.

I assume Goten and Gohan are both Ultimate, since that should be their default after UVM3. Yep, Goten's personality is clearly distinct from his dad and bro: Goku is cheerful and goofy, Gohan is serious, calm, and collected, Goten is serious and feisty. In fact all Time Patrol members have clearly distinct personalities, which I've really been enjoying.
Rinsankajugin wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 9:45 pm
Maybe they're stretching the story out a bit, considering that Universe Mission is confirmed up to an 11th update so far. What if the Demon Realm missions of UM8 and UM9 were originally a part of the same story but split due to the extension of the series?
I would say it's unlikely since UVM7-8 cover the same section (featuring Dark Gogeta), whereas UVM9 goes straight into the Demon realm. It would make more sense for UVM7-8 to have been part of the same story, but most likely it's all been planned. Despite previous mission patterns, nothing says we can't have more UVMs beyond 10 since there was never any official statement regarding how many there would be.
Noitsnothim wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 11:45 am
So Cumber's easily at Broly: BR level then ? also I assume Hit & Jiren will appear during the second to last episode of this saga in the promo anime to fight against Super hearts once he breaks his limits (He still isn't going all out) think he's got one or two more transformations under his belt
If you want to get into hypothetical powerscaling discussions. Broly: BR's level is somewhere at or above post-ToP S1 Gogeta but below SSB Gogeta. S1 Cumber already established himself to be solidly around post-ToP SSB Vegetto's level way back in UVM3, who should be more or less around SSB Gogeta (assuming both fusions give the same relative boost according to official material).

Therefore by scaling, I would say S1 Cumber already had FP-SSJ Broly: BR beat, especially S3 Cumber at that.

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Re: "(Super) Dragon Ball Heroes" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Rakurai » Sun Jul 14, 2019 7:02 pm

A bit more on the topic of SDBH powerscaling. The latest mission basically implies that the other Majin/Demon gods are basically no match for the Time Patrol-Demigra alliance individually. Note that these Majins are also powered up by Mechikaboola going by their new attires, therefore stronger than they were in SDBH 1-8.

Dabura: Xeno with Majin Vegeta, Spopovich, Yamu, Pui Pui, and Babidi was taken care of by the team-up of XTrunks and XPan. I think the dialogue implies XPan is weaker than XDabura but then that means XTrunks is stronger than XDabura. Perhaps XPan didn't contribute any fighting support to XTrunks' but then that would defeat the purpose of them teaming up, therefore it's possible that XPan could be around the level of Majin Vegeta if she is supposed to make some contribution.

XGohan defeats Gravy and the Garlic Jr. peeps by himself, therefore XGohan > Gravy.

XGoku defeats Poutine and the M13 villains by himself, XGoku > Poutine.

XVegeta defeats Towa, Mira, and the RoF crew by himself. I assume this is resurrected FF Frieza, therefore XVegeta > Towa, Mira, and maybe RoF Golden Frieza (again, if the FF Frieza in-game is a transforming type - haven't found a video of the gameplay).

XGoten defeats Shroom and the 17 duo/mad scientists Gero & Myuu by himself, therefore Goten > Shroom.

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Re: "(Super) Dragon Ball Heroes" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Grimlock » Sun Jul 14, 2019 10:31 pm

Rakurai wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 6:34 pm
Well, Daizenshuu 6 (or was it 7?) does place most of the films in different dimensions.
I will have to ask for a source, then. What I know is that Daizenshuu states when the movies take place in relation to the events in the series.
Rakurai wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 6:34 pm
but even tho we can sort of piece the Time Patrol's backgrounds based on hints and references, it's still rather vague and there's really no explicit confirmation. For example, even tho we know XGoku has met Tapion before, it's not exactly clear that XGohan/Vegeta/Goten have. (...) It's like what Cipher mentioned previously somewhere in the thread, the Time Patrol are the modern incarnation of classic DBZ/GT without getting too much into the specifics.
But that's asking to be spoonfed, isn't it? And complicating what should be easy. We have more than just "hints and references" at this point about where the Time Patrollers come from and the events they've experienced. I agree that others such as Dabura or King Vegeta may need more details, but the Time Patrollers? We have enough. There's no need for someone to come out and nitpick about each character.
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Re: "(Super) Dragon Ball Heroes" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Dark_Tzitzimine » Sun Jul 14, 2019 11:47 pm

Something I've been curious about is, how long do sets last in print? They finish their run as soon a new set is released?

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Re: "(Super) Dragon Ball Heroes" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Saiga » Mon Jul 15, 2019 12:33 am

Dark_Tzitzimine wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 11:47 pm
Something I've been curious about is, how long do sets last in print? They finish their run as soon a new set is released?
I'm really not sure, I got a SS4 Gohan (GT) last month that was from an earlier set.

I should check my cards when I get home and see if I can figure out the oldest card I got. I played a lot so I have a bunch of cards now.
I'm re-watching Dragon Ball GT in full on my blog. Check it out if you're interested in my thoughts on the series as I watch through it!

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Re: "(Super) Dragon Ball Heroes" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Goresh » Mon Jul 15, 2019 8:45 am

Dark_Tzitzimine wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 11:47 pm
Something I've been curious about is, how long do sets last in print? They finish their run as soon a new set is released?
I would say the average time for a set to last is around 2.5 months if not slightly longer. Once a set is done, it is no longer in print, which is why they’ve been having increasingly more reprint campaigns recently.

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Re: "(Super) Dragon Ball Heroes" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kenneth La Torre » Mon Jul 15, 2019 9:46 am

Noitsnothim wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 11:45 am
Rakurai wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 9:44 am
Went through whatever was available of the UVM9 Universe Survival arc. Outline:
  • Setting is in U7.
  • Fuu brings over Metal Cooler. Metal Cooler can turn Golden.
  • Fuu leaves immediately because he says it'd be bad if Hearts read his heart.
  • Metal Cooler seems to be obsessed with Cumber for some reason.
  • Jiren and Hit are present, through a request by Shin. Jiren claims that what Hearts did to U11 is a sin too big.
  • KamiOren vs Goku, Jiren, and Hit.
  • Super Hearts and S3 Cumber vs. Goku, Jiren, Hit, and Golden Metal Cooler. GM Cooler overheats after the battle.
  • Hearts with the same rambling about how his Universe Seed will be completed and his ambitions fulfilled.
No sign of No. 17 or Piccolo in the dialogue, but the Legend clear does require the player to use them so I guess that's how they're involved.

Also I haven't watched the latest SDBH promotional anime episode, but from what I've seen of clips SSB Goku fights Super Hearts alone...? Yeah no lol, in the arcade Super Hearts and S3 Cumber fight Goku, Jiren, Hit, and Golden Metal Cooler all at the same time. Super Hearts is that strong (or not that weak, whichever way you look at it).
So Cumber's easily at Broly: BR level then ? also I assume Hit & Jiren will appear during the second to last episode of this saga in the promo anime to fight against Super hearts once he breaks his limits (He still isn't going all out) think he's got one or two more transformations under his belt
Maybe, hard to tell. In the heroes arcade game, ssb and ssj4 are about even, ssj4 xeno vegito was able to fight ssj3 cumber, and it is a fight you win. So SSB Vegito at max should also be able to win against ssj3 cumber, but he wasnt defeated permenantly. would assume Cumber should definitely be at least FPSSJ Broly Level, at bare minimum.

But then again, we dont know how how broly BR in heroes scales. Heroes doesnt follow canon scaling. It has its own scaling .

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Re: "(Super) Dragon Ball Heroes" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Block88 » Mon Jul 15, 2019 10:01 am

So how strong is ssj4 Xeno Gohan?

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Re: "(Super) Dragon Ball Heroes" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Steven Bloodriver » Mon Jul 15, 2019 10:24 am

Block88 wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 10:01 am
So how strong is ssj4 Xeno Gohan?
Stronger than Super Saiyan 4 Son Goku: Xeno and Super Saiyan 4 Vegeta: Xeno, and more-or-less able to give Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta: Xeno a hand against Majin Fin (Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta Absorbed) in the Dragon Ball GT Timeline.

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Re: "(Super) Dragon Ball Heroes" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Rakurai » Mon Jul 15, 2019 11:01 pm

Grimlock wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 10:31 pm
Rakurai wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 6:34 pm
Well, Daizenshuu 6 (or was it 7?) does place most of the films in different dimensions.
I will have to ask for a source, then. What I know is that Daizenshuu states when the movies take place in relation to the events in the series.
Rakurai wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 6:34 pm
but even tho we can sort of piece the Time Patrol's backgrounds based on hints and references, it's still rather vague and there's really no explicit confirmation. For example, even tho we know XGoku has met Tapion before, it's not exactly clear that XGohan/Vegeta/Goten have. (...) It's like what Cipher mentioned previously somewhere in the thread, the Time Patrol are the modern incarnation of classic DBZ/GT without getting too much into the specifics.
But that's asking to be spoonfed, isn't it? And complicating what should be easy. We have more than just "hints and references" at this point about where the Time Patrollers come from and the events they've experienced. I agree that others such as Dabura or King Vegeta may need more details, but the Time Patrollers? We have enough. There's no need for someone to come out and nitpick about each character.
I think I'm getting information mixed up. Toriyama mentioned that he saw them as taking place in different dimensions. Therefore I assumed that the movies don't necessarily have to overlap unless there's a sequel like Cooler and Broly. But I think you're right about Daizenshuu 6 only stating where movies take place in relation.

SDBH likes to keep a lot of details vague. That's why I'm not discounting the possibility that XGoku may have experienced this movie and not that, etc etc. Anyways until we get an official history of the Time Patrol or something, there are parts that need to be confirmed and unsure until proven otherwise.
Steven Bloodriver wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 10:24 am
Stronger than Super Saiyan 4 Son Goku: Xeno and Super Saiyan 4 Vegeta: Xeno, and more-or-less able to give Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta: Xeno a hand against Majin Fin (Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta Absorbed) in the Dragon Ball GT Timeline.
You should note that's manga only, which follows a different powerscale. S4 XGogeta doesn't join the fight against Dark Gogeta in the arcade. I do think S4 XGohan is at least on the level of S4 XGoku/Vegeta, maybe even stronger, but we don't know that for sure.

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Re: "(Super) Dragon Ball Heroes" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Rakurai » Mon Jul 15, 2019 11:04 pm

Kenneth La Torre wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 9:46 am
Maybe, hard to tell. In the heroes arcade game, ssb and ssj4 are about even, ssj4 xeno vegito was able to fight ssj3 cumber, and it is a fight you win. So SSB Vegito at max should also be able to win against ssj3 cumber, but he wasnt defeated permenantly. would assume Cumber should definitely be at least FPSSJ Broly Level, at bare minimum.

But then again, we dont know how how broly BR in heroes scales. Heroes doesnt follow canon scaling. It has its own scaling .
Yet we have S4 XGoku & XVegeta fighting equally against S1 Cumber, whereas CC Goku & Vegeta felt like they needed to fuse just to stand a chance against base Cumber. In the Prison Planet arc, S4 XVegetto > S3 Cumber > S1 Cumber ~ SSB Vegetto.

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Re: "(Super) Dragon Ball Heroes" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Grimlock » Tue Jul 16, 2019 12:34 am

Rakurai wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 11:01 pm
I think I'm getting information mixed up. Toriyama mentioned that he saw them as taking place in different dimensions. Therefore I assumed that the movies don't necessarily have to overlap unless there's a sequel like Cooler and Broly. But I think you're right about Daizenshuu 6 only stating where movies take place in relation.
| mean, I really don't want to get too much on semantics (because translating can have multiple ways of doing it), but the way it was worded (in singular) imply all the movies occur in the same place.
Rakurai wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 11:01 pm
SDBH likes to keep a lot of details vague. That's why I'm not discounting the possibility that XGoku may have experienced this movie and not that, etc etc. Anyways until we get an official history of the Time Patrol or something, there are parts that need to be confirmed and unsure until proven otherwise.
But what's so "vague"? Yeah, Heroes came up with Cumber knowing about Super Saiyan God but didn't delve into it, that doesn't mean we could say Cumber could've fought against either Yamoshi or the one who transformed into Super Saiyan God just because the game didn't specify. We know that he fought the latter. For instance.

We don't need to go full on details about something so easy to figure. I fail to see why Xeno Goku saying that he fought against the dragons before would mean Xeno Vegeta, who can also transform into Super Saiyan 4 and didn't need to be taught how to perform the fusion dance, wouldn't come from the same place Xeno Goku comes from. Xeno Gohan recognizes Garlic Junior and Slug, he transforms into Super Saiyan 4 (and the only one who could possibly do that would be a Gohan within Dragon Ball GT context, a Gohan who can also have his tail pulled off just like Goku, in other words; a GT Gohan)¹. Xeno Goten with Kakashi's hairstyle... I've never seen any other Goten with that hair outside of Dragon Ball GT, have you? Now you just need to put two and two together... I think it goes on the contrary, until we get an official history of the Time Patrollers, it's safer to say they come from the same place.


¹ I think that statement might be misinterpreted so I'll go ahead and explain: I'm not referring to GT Gohan in Dragon Ball Heroes. I'm talking about the series itself. In the series, Gohan can transform into Super Saiyan 4 just like Goku, as just like his father, Gohan had a tail once. If Goku got his tail back, I think it's pretty obvious that Gohan can get it too (hence why it was [only] GT Gohan who got it in Dragon Ball Heroes, you don't see Z Gohan or a kid Gohan with that form, do you?).
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Re: "(Super) Dragon Ball Heroes" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kenneth La Torre » Tue Jul 16, 2019 5:05 am

Rakurai wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 11:04 pm
Kenneth La Torre wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 9:46 am
Maybe, hard to tell. In the heroes arcade game, ssb and ssj4 are about even, ssj4 xeno vegito was able to fight ssj3 cumber, and it is a fight you win. So SSB Vegito at max should also be able to win against ssj3 cumber, but he wasnt defeated permenantly. would assume Cumber should definitely be at least FPSSJ Broly Level, at bare minimum.

But then again, we dont know how how broly BR in heroes scales. Heroes doesnt follow canon scaling. It has its own scaling .
Yet we have S4 XGoku & XVegeta fighting equally against S1 Cumber, whereas CC Goku & Vegeta felt like they needed to fuse just to stand a chance against base Cumber. In the Prison Planet arc, S4 XVegetto > S3 Cumber > S1 Cumber ~ SSB Vegetto.
Yet we have ssj4 xeno goku admit ssb goku is a step ahead of him in power. See, heroes has its own scaling that doesnt fit into what we normally see in canon.

I dont have a problem with the scqling you posted, but the reason we cant say where broly BR and SSB Gogeta stand in power is because they havent been introduced into this arcs story. For all we know SSB Gogeta could get beaten by base cumber, or he could outperform even super hearts.

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Re: "(Super) Dragon Ball Heroes" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kenneth La Torre » Tue Jul 16, 2019 5:11 am

Tho i got to say, since ssj4 xeno vegito did beat ssj3 cumber, and assuming the new info of potara = fusion dance apply, i have to assume Ssj4 kaioken xeno gogeta is a god-like power house. Same for mechikabura.

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Re: "(Super) Dragon Ball Heroes" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Rakurai » Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:03 am

Grimlock wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 12:34 am
| mean, I really don't want to get too much on semantics (because translating can have multiple ways of doing it), but the way it was worded (in singular) imply all the movies occur in the same place.

We don't need to go full on details about something so easy to figure. I fail to see why Xeno Goku saying that he fought against the dragons before would mean Xeno Vegeta, who can also transform into Super Saiyan 4 and didn't need to be taught how to perform the fusion dance, wouldn't come from the same place Xeno Goku comes from. Xeno Gohan recognizes Garlic Junior and Slug, he transforms into Super Saiyan 4 (and the only one who could possibly do that would be a Gohan within Dragon Ball GT context, a Gohan who can also have his tail pulled off just like Goku, in other words; a GT Gohan)¹. Xeno Goten with Kakashi's hairstyle... I've never seen any other Goten with that hair outside of Dragon Ball GT, have you? Now you just need to put two and two together... I think it goes on the contrary, until we get an official history of the Time Patrollers, it's safer to say they come from the same place.


¹ I think that statement might be misinterpreted so I'll go ahead and explain: I'm not referring to GT Gohan in Dragon Ball Heroes. I'm talking about the series itself. In the series, Gohan can transform into Super Saiyan 4 just like Goku, as just like his father, Gohan had a tail once. If Goku got his tail back, I think it's pretty obvious that Gohan can get it too (hence why it was [only] GT Gohan who got it in Dragon Ball Heroes, you don't see Z Gohan or a kid Gohan with that form, do you?).
Don't want to get nitpicky either, but I would need to see the original Japanese text to confirm the way it was worded or the implications. Typically there are no plural forms for nouns in Japanese with the obv exception of pronouns but depending on the context it could very well mean the plural form. But anyways, this is Toriyama and he's not necessarily the authority on individual movie timelines either (that's most likely Koyama) so :think:

XGohan achieved it by being doused in Blutz waves, not by gaining his tail back. The way he acquired it can very well be done to any Gohan from any timeline, and in fact to any Saiyan in principle.
Kenneth La Torre wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 5:05 am
Yet we have ssj4 xeno goku admit ssb goku is a step ahead of him in power. See, heroes has its own scaling that doesnt fit into what we normally see in canon.

I dont have a problem with the scqling you posted, but the reason we cant say where broly BR and SSB Gogeta stand in power is because they havent been introduced into this arcs story. For all we know SSB Gogeta could get beaten by base cumber, or he could outperform even super hearts.
That statement is the only contradictory one based on what we see in the later UVMs, but even so it doesn't discount the possibility of S4 XGoku making some serious gains after his battle with Blueku on his own in the Prison Planet. And it doesn't discount the possibility that S4 XVegeta is above SSB Vegeta either, which could very well be true in the first place. But we definitively know that S4 XGoku & Vegeta in UVM5 were fighting equally against S1 Cumber, whereas CC Goku and Vegeta were in a pinch against an untransformed Cumber.

Neither the film nor Prison Planet arc seemed to have occurred farther ahead in time such that Goku & Vegeta would have gotten way way stronger than after the ToP. I think it's very reasonable to set both Prison Planet/CC and BR versions to a post-ToP Goku & Vegeta, marginal if any difference in their subsequent gains, and hence SSB Vegetto ~ SSB Gogeta.

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Re: "(Super) Dragon Ball Heroes" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Grimlock » Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:41 am

Rakurai wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:03 am
Don't want to get nitpicky either, but I would need to see the original Japanese text to confirm the way it was worded or the implications. But anyways, this is Toriyama and he's not necessarily the authority on individual movie timelines either (that's most likely Koyama) so :think:
You'll have to ask Herms or VegettoEX, I don't have it in Japanese.
Rakurai wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:03 am
XGohan achieved it by being doused in Blutz waves, not by gaining his tail back. The way he acquired it can very well be done to any Gohan from any timeline, and in fact to any Saiyan in principle.
Yeah, in the actual story that didn't happen. But that's exactly what makes possible for Gohan to have Super Saiyan 4. It's the logical explanation for his what-if form.

And I don't think so. Receiving blutz waves and transforming even without a tail is a Dragon Ball GT logic, I don't think it would work within Dragon Ball Z context. I don't think anyone from Dragon Ball Z can transform into Super Saiyan 4.
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Re: "(Super) Dragon Ball Heroes" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Dark_Tzitzimine » Tue Jul 16, 2019 12:07 pm

The whole Blutz Wave is GT invention and I believe other SSJ4s introduced in SDBH use different means to achieve the form, like Broly getting it from a wish and SSJ4 Bardock simply appearing out of nowhere with no real explanation. So that distinction must count for something.

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Re: "(Super) Dragon Ball Heroes" Official Discussion Thread

Post by S3 Hendrix » Tue Jul 16, 2019 4:45 pm

Grimlock wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:41 am
Rakurai wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:03 am
Don't want to get nitpicky either, but I would need to see the original Japanese text to confirm the way it was worded or the implications. But anyways, this is Toriyama and he's not necessarily the authority on individual movie timelines either (that's most likely Koyama) so :think:
You'll have to ask Herms or VegettoEX, I don't have it in Japanese.
Rakurai wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:03 am
XGohan achieved it by being doused in Blutz waves, not by gaining his tail back. The way he acquired it can very well be done to any Gohan from any timeline, and in fact to any Saiyan in principle.
Yeah, in the actual story that didn't happen. But that's exactly what makes possible for Gohan to have Super Saiyan 4. It's the logical explanation for his what-if form.

And I don't think so. Receiving blutz waves and transforming even without a tail is a Dragon Ball GT logic, I don't think it would work within Dragon Ball Z context. I don't think anyone from Dragon Ball Z can transform into Super Saiyan 4.
Well that’s not true because normal bardock(a Z character) got super Saiyan 4, way to use head canon hard with no actual support of the claim you’re making.

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Re: "(Super) Dragon Ball Heroes" Official Discussion Thread

Post by S3 Hendrix » Tue Jul 16, 2019 4:47 pm

Dark_Tzitzimine wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 12:07 pm
The whole Blutz Wave is GT invention and I believe other SSJ4s introduced in SDBH use different means to achieve the form, like Broly getting it from a wish and SSJ4 Bardock simply appearing out of nowhere with no real explanation. So that distinction must count for something.
Broly got the form from controlling his golden oozaru form in game, only in the animated trailer does black smoke Shenron help him receive the form. Bardock received the form because of the distortions in time and space dark Shenron made.

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Re: "(Super) Dragon Ball Heroes" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kenneth La Torre » Wed Jul 17, 2019 12:17 pm

S3 Hendrix wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 4:47 pm
Dark_Tzitzimine wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 12:07 pm
The whole Blutz Wave is GT invention and I believe other SSJ4s introduced in SDBH use different means to achieve the form, like Broly getting it from a wish and SSJ4 Bardock simply appearing out of nowhere with no real explanation. So that distinction must count for something.
Broly got the form from controlling his golden oozaru form in game, only in the animated trailer does black smoke Shenron help him receive the form. Bardock received the form because of the distortions in time and space dark Shenron made.
So...what did the distortion in time and space do to make him transform? Or was it that the distortion created a time line where he was ssj4 already.

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