"(Super) Dragon Ball Heroes" Official Discussion Thread

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Re: "(Super) Dragon Ball Heroes" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Grimlock » Thu Jan 23, 2020 1:53 pm

Rakurai wrote: Thu Jan 23, 2020 7:43 amWatch the end of GT or the Goku Jr. TV special. "Immortalized Goku" is just a generalized description, but whatever the case it's clear that he's ageless from that point on.

And somehow I doubt Kaioshin of Time recruited this Goku to the Time Patrol.
The end of GT/Goku Junior TV Special takes place one hundred years in the future. It probably goes without saying that there is a huge gap, enough for, like, Goku to become a Time Patroller in the meantime...
Rakurai wrote: Thu Jan 23, 2020 7:43 amIt's a deliberate choice. The actual Goku: GT in DBH/SDBH is tanned. It is a characteristic of GT Goku. Toei deliberately did this for reasons we will never know (tho I suspect it is to match Toriyama's original skin color for Goku), same with Kale also being tan. But you know, ppl in real life get more tan with time as well.
One that does not amount to anything in-universe. All games will depict GT Goku as tanned because that's what games do, depict what is seen in the anime series.
Rakurai wrote: Thu Jan 23, 2020 7:43 amFurthermore, XVegeta also sports his primary hairstyle & not the GT one.
Yes, that's the only "hindrance". But one that I find little compared to the fact that he can transform into Super Saiyan 4. We don't know what happens to Vegeta after GT.
Rakurai wrote: Thu Jan 23, 2020 7:43 amYou say explicit evidence & then list design, but I just countered your points.
You didn't. Vegeta's hairstyle hardly makes any other appearance be something to rule out.
Rakurai wrote: Thu Jan 23, 2020 7:43 amYou act like there is an ultimatum & want an ultimatum answer, but from my perspective there is none. Or at least, not yet. And I'm not the person who's going to back up that stance.
There isn't, but they have to come from somewhere. So I'm going with what we have at our disposal, and what we have are those explicit evidences. Now, if we are going to ignore what we have for the sake of being "ambiguous"/not acknowledge all the references and whatnot made by the characters themselves and just assume we don't know anything, then we might as well go back to learn the basics, to learn how to recognize the inference, to learn how to read between the lines, get what is behind.
Rakurai wrote: Thu Jan 23, 2020 7:43 amXGoku knew Broly. That is something that distinguishes him apart from GT Goku.
How? Where in Dragon Ball GT they established or even hinted that the characters didn't experience the movie events?
Rakurai wrote: Thu Jan 23, 2020 7:43 amFurthermore, the movies take place in their own separate continuities.
Source?
Rakurai wrote: Thu Jan 23, 2020 7:43 amIn the arcade, XPan simply showed up w/o an explanation, despite it being after the GT arc. Don't confuse correlation w/ causation. I'm not entirely against the idea that XPan is from GT, but it remains ambiguous because it's not explicitly stated, nonetheless.
So you can see that Pan comes directly from GT but still want an explicit statement...
Rakurai wrote: Thu Jan 23, 2020 7:43 amthen you also have to acknowledge that according to Pan from the SDBH manga, XVegeta is younger than the one she knows of. Which proves XVegeta is NOT from the GT timeline.
Mind to provide the actual line? As far as I remember all she said was that he was seemingly younger.
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Re: "(Super) Dragon Ball Heroes" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Noah » Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:54 pm

What infos do we have now about BBM? It will be Fu the only antagonist?
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Re: "(Super) Dragon Ball Heroes" Official Discussion Thread

Post by ShadowVezon » Thu Jan 23, 2020 4:52 pm

Noah wrote: Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:54 pm What infos do we have now about BBM? It will be Fu the only antagonist?
We know that Towa (working with Bojack and Turles by the looks of it) will also appear as an antagonist.

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Re: "(Super) Dragon Ball Heroes" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Rakurai » Thu Jan 23, 2020 8:51 pm

Noitsnothim wrote: Thu Jan 23, 2020 12:47 pm
Here's a question I have; Are the xeno counterparts weaker or stronger than their real counterparts (Like is xeno Goku stronger than GT goku?) I remember during their battle against fin it showed that Gogeta SS4 from GT was stronger than SS4 xeno gogeta
Well, first as I've emphasized in my previous points, there's no such thing as 'real' counterpart when it comes to the Time Patrol. They are about as 'real' as GT Goku or official history Goku. They are derived from various histories. They are fictional characters that exist in a sub-series of the DB franchise.

As for your question, I don't have an exact answer to that either. But it's implied that the Xenos are stronger than the GT characters. Xeno Evil dragons are stronger than before, & their combined forces could defeat Xeno Super Yi Xing Long. However they also acknowledge SS4 GT Gogeta to be a powerhouse, one who's not so weak as to get completely controlled by the likes of Fin, who both XGoku & Vegeta acknowledged as having great strength.

Dark Gogeta has GT Gogeta's power (or some of it, since GT SS4 Gogeta > Dark Gogeta) on top of Fin's original power. In the manga, he's at least on par w/ SS4 XGogeta.
Last edited by Rakurai on Thu Jan 23, 2020 9:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "(Super) Dragon Ball Heroes" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Rakurai » Thu Jan 23, 2020 9:01 pm

Grimlock wrote: Thu Jan 23, 2020 1:53 pm
If XGoku were the exact same Goku from the GT timeline we exactly know of, then he would've depicted as having tanned skin. Especially in DBH/SDBH where Goku: GT does. But he doesn't.

Where in GT did they hint that Broly existed or that Goku ever met him? Absence of evidence is not proof of evidence. The burden of proof lies on YOU to prove GT Goku knew Broly. Not me.

Toriyama & Daizenshuu 6 state that the films take place in separate continuities or timelines or whatever you like to think of it. It is disingenious to say that GT & films have to belong in the same world, when there are already various contradictions to that claim.

Here's what Pan said in the manga:

「ベジターおじさんもちょっぴり若いわけだ」

Put it thru Google translate or the like, but my interpretation is clear. XVegeta looks younger than the one she knows, which casts doubt upon the claim that he's from her timeline AKA the GT one.
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Re: "(Super) Dragon Ball Heroes" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Grimlock » Fri Jan 24, 2020 1:44 am

Rakurai wrote: Thu Jan 23, 2020 9:01 pmIf XGoku were the exact same Goku from the GT timeline we exactly know of, then he would've depicted as having tanned skin. Especially in DBH/SDBH where Goku: GT does. But he doesn't.
Or this is another purely out-universe issue. Where despite GT Goku being tanned and Xeno Goku is his future self, Dimps wanted to depict Xeno Goku as white because that's how Goku and all his incarnations are supposed to be. The problem is not in Heroes, it's in GT.
Rakurai wrote: Thu Jan 23, 2020 9:01 pmWhere in GT did they hint that Broly existed or that Goku ever met him? Absence of evidence is not proof of evidence. The burden of proof lies on YOU to prove GT Goku knew Broly. Not me.
Exactly. There's no evidence confirming or denying it. So neither of us can provide a source. I mean, I don't need because I actually never said GT Goku met Broly, you, on the other hand, claimed GT Goku never met him.
Rakurai wrote: Thu Jan 23, 2020 9:01 pmToriyama & Daizenshuu 6 state that the films take place in separate continuities or timelines or whatever you like to think of it. It is disingenious to say that GT & films have to belong in the same world, when there are already various contradictions to that claim.
No, he didn't. And I do remember having discussed this already so I'm not dragging it more than the necessary: he didn't say "each movie takes place in its own dimension" or anything like that at all.

Not really, Cooler already appears in Dragon Ball GT. I think it's very reasonable to place the series and the movies in the same dimension. It's simpler, more advantageous. But if you say there are contradictions, I would like to know them.
Rakurai wrote: Thu Jan 23, 2020 9:01 pmHere's what Pan said in the manga:

「ベジターおじさんもちょっぴり若いわけだ」

Put it thru Google translate or the like, but my interpretation is clear. XVegeta looks younger than the one she knows, which casts doubt upon the claim that he's from her timeline AKA the GT one.
And so is mine. In Cipher's translation and yours own (except for the Google translate, which uses "is"), the word "looks" is right there. She doesn't outright say he is younger, just that he looks younger to her. Now this is an actual ambiguity.
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Re: "(Super) Dragon Ball Heroes" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Rakurai » Fri Jan 24, 2020 4:09 am

Grimlock wrote: Fri Jan 24, 2020 1:44 am
Am I really going to state the obvious? Z movies like M3, M6, M7, M9, M11, M12 are all impossible in the main DB storyline, of which GT is a sequel of. M8 (the Broly film) makes no sense from a storytelling standpoint because Goku & Gohan are supposed to be SS if we are to place them sometime during the period before the Cell Games. Daizenshuu 6 outright speculates the timeline placement for each of the films, indicating that they are impossible within the framework of the main timeline. Toriyama says that they take place in a different dimension. Among other things, & if you can't see this, then you're being deliberately stubborn & illogical, & I can't help you.

Sigh. The same logic that ppl use to claim Buu saga SS3 Vegetto exists. Absence of evidence. I'll just go ahead & say then that GT Goku has gone through BoG & has absorbed SSG. Since there is nothing to disprove that, ofc.

If that is the logic we are going to play w/, then we can stop here & agree to disagree.

But anyhow. The only ones who will ever truly know the true timeline/history of the Xeno warriors are the Xenoverse team & the SDBH team. They are the ones who conceived them. Beyond this, it's all still speculation w/ some pieces of information to deduce certain events, & nothing is outright confirmed.

--

And to clear things up about the translation. If you REALLY want to break it up, the primary keyword here is わけ or in Kanji form, 訳. According to a Japanese dictionary, it means "conclusion from reasoning, judgement or calculation based on something read or heard; reason; cause; meaning; circumstances; situation." When I say she says he looks younger, I mean she is presumably deducing it from her own experience. It is a subtle but strong way of affirming that this is not the same XVegeta she knows of, that this one is a little younger. There can be ambiguity if you're a master of reading too deep into it, but it is the narrative & there's nothing to suggest otherwise later on, not by XVegeta himself. So it is reasonable & safe to take her words as truth.
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Re: "(Super) Dragon Ball Heroes" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Grimlock » Fri Jan 24, 2020 12:06 pm

Rakurai wrote: Fri Jan 24, 2020 4:09 amToriyama says that they take place in a different dimension. Among other things, & if you can't see this, then you're being deliberately stubborn & illogical, & I can't help you.
Correct, you can't help me because you're wrong:

You said: "Toriyama & Daizenshuu 6 state that the films take place in separate continuities" - which implies each of the movie takes place in their own dimension, one for each movie.

What is officialy said is: “stories in a different dimension from the main story of the comic”. - which implies the movies take place in the same dimension.

Nice try to tweak things into making me looking like the one who isn't understanding, though. But try harder next time, or just choose carefully your words.
Rakurai wrote: Fri Jan 24, 2020 4:09 amSigh. The same logic that ppl use to claim Buu saga SS3 Vegetto exists.
What? You believe Vegetto doesn't have the/can't transform into Super Saiyan 3 form? Now that would be something disingenious to say.
Rakurai wrote: Fri Jan 24, 2020 4:09 amAbsence of evidence. I'll just go ahead & say then that GT Goku has gone through BoG & has absorbed SSG. Since there is nothing to disprove that, ofc.
Apples and oranges. There are a lot proving the lack of Movie 14 events in Dragon Ball GT.
Rakurai wrote: Fri Jan 24, 2020 4:09 amIf that is the logic we are going to play w/, then we can stop here & agree to disagree.
Alright, so to wrap it up, all I could understand is that you can't acknowledge the Time Patrollers coming from a point after GT only because you haven't been spoonfed with a statement, correct?
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Re: "(Super) Dragon Ball Heroes" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Rakurai » Fri Jan 24, 2020 12:33 pm

Grimlock wrote: Fri Jan 24, 2020 12:06 pm
To wrap it up, I'm open to the interpretation that the Time Patrollers don't have to be restrained to one single 'known' timeline, like XBardock. Because of the contradictions & restrictions to their personas as I've already stated.
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Re: "(Super) Dragon Ball Heroes" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Grimlock » Fri Jan 24, 2020 6:58 pm

That broad interpretation suggests/leads to another issue in this particular case: are you telling me that there might be another unknown Dragon Ball GT events out there (since you said "We know he's lived through some GT-like events")? Probably similar to the one we know but with things happening differently or not happening at all? Because there would be an assumption far more unrealistic than simply acknowledging that the Time Patrollers are from a point after the GT events.

Dragon Ball GT is already an aberration of time, it only exists because of Future Trunks' action. There is no Dragon Ball GT where the majority of the characters die. That said, how many present timelines exist that do not acknowledge Dragon Ball Super and thus Dragon Ball GT can happen later on? If this is the case, I would like a source. As I said, assuming there might be another GT out there with different events is a big deal, it requires something, anything to make it believable in order to make such assumption.

One more thing: I would like to know where Bardock is referred as an active member of the Time Patrol. As far as I know, he just takes on the aid role and nothing more.
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Re: "(Super) Dragon Ball Heroes" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Dark_Tzitzimine » Fri Jan 24, 2020 7:44 pm

My personal theory is that UM events (the Demon Army going there to collect Gogeta GT's combat data) are precisely the divergence point for DBGT from which the Xeno versions come from.

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Re: "(Super) Dragon Ball Heroes" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Rakurai » Fri Jan 24, 2020 8:37 pm

XBardock becomes included in the Time Patrol circle in the DDR Current Story (2) flowchart in the SDBH 9th anniv guidebook. Tho I don't really care if he is part of it or not, I was just speaking generally about the Xeno characters.

The Xeno characters can be whatever the SDBH team want them to be. That's why we have such diff alterations b/w UMX, WM, & the arcade. That's why Goku: Xeno has gone thru some GT-like events but also knows Broly. That's why XVegeta looks younger but has SS4, and can actually use the form freely (unlike in GT, where he needs the Blutz waves). That's why XBardock has Gine as his wife. That's why my criteria is more specific.
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Re: "(Super) Dragon Ball Heroes" Official Discussion Thread

Post by S3 Hendrix » Sat Jan 25, 2020 12:30 pm

Grimlock wrote: Fri Jan 24, 2020 6:58 pm That broad interpretation suggests/leads to another issue in this particular case: are you telling me that there might be another unknown Dragon Ball GT events out there (since you said "We know he's lived through some GT-like events")? Probably similar to the one we know but with things happening differently or not happening at all? Because there would be an assumption far more unrealistic than simply acknowledging that the Time Patrollers are from a point after the GT events.

Dragon Ball GT is already an aberration of time, it only exists because of Future Trunks' action. There is no Dragon Ball GT where the majority of the characters die. That said, how many present timelines exist that do not acknowledge Dragon Ball Super and thus Dragon Ball GT can happen later on? If this is the case, I would like a source. As I said, assuming there might be another GT out there with different events is a big deal, it requires something, anything to make it believable in order to make such assumption.

One more thing: I would like to know where Bardock is referred as an active member of the Time Patrol. As far as I know, he just takes on the aid role and nothing more.
Heroes has multiple GT timelines, the GT timeline in galaxy mission, GT timeline In evil dragon mission where the evil dragons are summoned and disrupt space and time, God mission 5 GT timeline where Gohan goes ssj4 to help fight super 17(18 absorbed) also let’s not forget Vegeta already has ssj4 In this timeline something he wouldn’t get till his fight the evil dragons in the actual anime, god mission 6 GT timeline where baby and hatchiyack merge, the normal 1:1 anime events of the GT timeline, and the GT timeline where mechikabura and the other demons god go in UVM which seems to be 1:1 the same as the anime lore until the demon gods show up and start messing things up.

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Re: "(Super) Dragon Ball Heroes" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Grimlock » Sat Jan 25, 2020 4:10 pm

Dark_Tzitzimine wrote: Fri Jan 24, 2020 7:44 pm My personal theory is that UM events (the Demon Army going there to collect Gogeta GT's combat data) are precisely the divergence point for DBGT from which the Xeno versions come from.
That wouldn't change a thing, considering the battle between Gogeta and One-Star Dragon is nearly the end of GT.
S3 Hendrix wrote: Sat Jan 25, 2020 12:30 pmHeroes has multiple GT timelines, the GT timeline in galaxy mission, GT timeline In evil dragon mission where the evil dragons are summoned and disrupt space and time, God mission 5 GT timeline where Gohan goes ssj4 to help fight super 17(18 absorbed) also let’s not forget Vegeta already has ssj4 In this timeline something he wouldn’t get till his fight the evil dragons in the actual anime, god mission 6 GT timeline where baby and hatchiyack merge, the normal 1:1 anime events of the GT timeline, and the GT timeline where mechikabura and the other demons god go in UVM which seems to be 1:1 the same as the anime lore until the demon gods show up and start messing things up.
Assuming whatever came before SDBH counts as a full-fledged and structured story.
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Re: "(Super) Dragon Ball Heroes" Official Discussion Thread

Post by S3 Hendrix » Sat Jan 25, 2020 8:35 pm

Grimlock wrote: Sat Jan 25, 2020 4:10 pm
Dark_Tzitzimine wrote: Fri Jan 24, 2020 7:44 pm My personal theory is that UM events (the Demon Army going there to collect Gogeta GT's combat data) are precisely the divergence point for DBGT from which the Xeno versions come from.
That wouldn't change a thing, considering the battle between Gogeta and One-Star Dragon is nearly the end of GT.
S3 Hendrix wrote: Sat Jan 25, 2020 12:30 pmHeroes has multiple GT timelines, the GT timeline in galaxy mission, GT timeline In evil dragon mission where the evil dragons are summoned and disrupt space and time, God mission 5 GT timeline where Gohan goes ssj4 to help fight super 17(18 absorbed) also let’s not forget Vegeta already has ssj4 In this timeline something he wouldn’t get till his fight the evil dragons in the actual anime, god mission 6 GT timeline where baby and hatchiyack merge, the normal 1:1 anime events of the GT timeline, and the GT timeline where mechikabura and the other demons god go in UVM which seems to be 1:1 the same as the anime lore until the demon gods show up and start messing things up.
Assuming whatever came before SDBH counts as a full-fledged and structured story.
Are you really trying to argue DBH didn’t have a story before SDBH? I’ll admit the story in DBH isn’t as fleshed out(atleast the pre-god mission stuff but god mission 3 and onward has the same type of dialogue cutscenes that SDBH has) as SDBH’s story but they’re still stories canon to the arcade lore.

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Re: "(Super) Dragon Ball Heroes" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Rakurai » Sat Jan 25, 2020 10:34 pm

It's clear that the Xeno characters are not the exact same as the GT anime incarnations, from visual to character references to transformation capabilities (like XVegeta being able to use SS4 at will). From game port to port. And as S3 Hendrix mentions, prior to SDBH1-8 there have been various takes on the GT-verse.

I think that's enough to get the hint that the Xeno characters may not come from the same GT history we know of exactly.
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Re: "(Super) Dragon Ball Heroes" Official Discussion Thread

Post by sunsetshimmer » Sat Jan 25, 2020 11:21 pm

Rakurai wrote: Sat Jan 25, 2020 10:34 pm It's clear that the Xeno characters are not the exact same as the GT anime incarnations, from visual to character references to transformation capabilities (like XVegeta being able to use SS4 at will). From game port to port. And as S3 Hendrix mentions, prior to SDBH1-8 there have been various takes on the GT-verse.

I think that's enough to get the hint that the Xeno characters may not come from the same GT history we know of exactly.
Isn't GT Vegeta able to use SSJ4 at his will in heroes? This is one example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFFw6bVn090
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Re: "(Super) Dragon Ball Heroes" Official Discussion Thread

Post by S3 Hendrix » Sat Jan 25, 2020 11:26 pm

sunsetshimmer wrote: Sat Jan 25, 2020 11:21 pm
Rakurai wrote: Sat Jan 25, 2020 10:34 pm It's clear that the Xeno characters are not the exact same as the GT anime incarnations, from visual to character references to transformation capabilities (like XVegeta being able to use SS4 at will). From game port to port. And as S3 Hendrix mentions, prior to SDBH1-8 there have been various takes on the GT-verse.

I think that's enough to get the hint that the Xeno characters may not come from the same GT history we know of exactly.
Isn't GT Vegeta able to use SSJ4 at his will in heroes? This is one example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFFw6bVn090

He didn’t go ssj4 at will there, that was literally him unlocking ssj4 for the first time in heroes continuity

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Re: "(Super) Dragon Ball Heroes" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Rakurai » Sun Jan 26, 2020 9:22 am

sunsetshimmer wrote: Sat Jan 25, 2020 11:21 pm Isn't GT Vegeta able to use SSJ4 at his will in heroes? This is one example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFFw6bVn090
Then that wouldn't be the same Toei anime GT Vegeta anymore. Perfect Files 2 states Vegeta can't transform into SS4 at will without Blutz waves. That would automatically be a DBH alternate GT Vegeta who can use SS4 at will.
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Re: "(Super) Dragon Ball Heroes" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Grimlock » Sun Jan 26, 2020 11:11 am

S3 Hendrix wrote: Sat Jan 25, 2020 8:35 pmAre you really trying to argue DBH didn’t have a story before SDBH? I’ll admit the story in DBH isn’t as fleshed out(atleast the pre-god mission stuff but god mission 3 and onward has the same type of dialogue cutscenes that SDBH has) as SDBH’s story but they’re still stories canon to the arcade lore.
"Trying"? No. I'm outright saying there was no story prior to SDBH at all. From 2010 to 2016, Dragon Ball Heroes was just this simple game doing plain and pure what-if content, without being tied to a story or anything. Take this Vegeta case for example, nothing is going on there, it's merely Super Saiyan 4 Vegeta arriving on Heroes. For that promotional trailer, they created that situation that is not meant to be taken any more than what it really is, a promotional trailer to announce said character is coming (and even today that's still the sole purpose of the trailers. They're nothing more than to annouce the content coming).
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