"(Super) Dragon Ball Heroes" Official Discussion Thread

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Re: "(Super) Dragon Ball Heroes" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Steven Bloodriver » Sat Jun 23, 2018 8:11 am

BrolyKale wrote:
shadowfox87 wrote:
Grimlock wrote:But it's cool to see Ozotto, it may take a long time, but Heroes will never forget someone. Now, if only Heroes used the Makaio/Makaioshin concept.
It's only speculation since it's not explicitly stated but according to this interview: http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... agon-ball/

There are Makaios and Makaioshins in the Demon Realm. At the same time, there are "delinquent Core People with evil hearts; these ones fall under the Makaiō." Core People meaning Shinjins. One can imply that this means evil Kaios and Kaioshins are considered Makaios and Makaioshins but it's not clear.

Dabura was the king of the demon realm but that could mean he's just a Makaio while Mechikabura could be a Makaioshin. What's also interesting is that in the same interview, Toriyama says that Kaioshins' power is currently greater than a Makaioshin. Though that could just mean Mechikabura in his old age is weaker but in his prime could be stronger.
So does that make Zamasu a Makaioshin? since he turned into evil.
I like to believe Zamasu was always a Makaiōshin, as to me, he somehow just was able to sneak his way into becoming a Kai of the Northern Quadrant through as of yet unknown means, and did such a wonderful job as one, he had become the Kaioshin Apprentice of Gowasu, the Supreme Kai of Universe 10.

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Re: "(Super) Dragon Ball Heroes" Official Discussion Thread

Post by shadowfox87 » Sat Jun 23, 2018 9:00 am

Steven Bloodriver wrote:I like to believe Zamasu was always a Makaiōshin, as to me, he somehow just was able to sneak his way into becoming a Kai of the Northern Quadrant through as of yet unknown means, and did such a wonderful job as one, he had become the Kaioshin Apprentice of Gowasu, the Supreme Kai of Universe 10.
Well if we can imply that evil Kaios and Kaioshins are Makaios and Makaioshins, then this would be true. However, this means that one isn't born a Makaio or Makaioshin. All the Shinjin are born out of the fruit from the World Tree. If that fruit is golden, they are a Kaioshin but if they get corrupted later down the road, they become a Makaioshin and then are banished to the Demon Realm. Again, this is all just my headcannon.

Zamasu was the North Kaio but because he was so good, Gowasu was impressed so he became his apprentice Kaioshin. Technically, he isn't a Kaioshin. Shin said that he may be the stronger than all of the 12 Kaioshins of the multiverse. However, I wouldn't say that he was "always" a Makaioshin but rather he became gradually corrupted and then be became an evil Kai. Whether or not you would like to then name him as Makaioshin or Makaio after he has turned evil is up to you.

Most of the people from the Demon Realm have different skin color too. I'm not sure if that's the skin color they were born with. Zamasu's skin color is green which could be symbolic for green with envy. Though his skin color remained the same even after he turned evil.
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Re: "(Super) Dragon Ball Heroes" Official Discussion Thread

Post by SSJFutureTrunks » Sat Jun 23, 2018 10:57 am

I haven't really been following the Heroes story, do I start by reading the Victory mission manga?

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Re: "(Super) Dragon Ball Heroes" Official Discussion Thread

Post by BrolyKale » Sat Jun 23, 2018 11:32 am

Steven Bloodriver wrote:
BrolyKale wrote:
shadowfox87 wrote:
It's only speculation since it's not explicitly stated but according to this interview: http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... agon-ball/

There are Makaios and Makaioshins in the Demon Realm. At the same time, there are "delinquent Core People with evil hearts; these ones fall under the Makaiō." Core People meaning Shinjins. One can imply that this means evil Kaios and Kaioshins are considered Makaios and Makaioshins but it's not clear.

Dabura was the king of the demon realm but that could mean he's just a Makaio while Mechikabura could be a Makaioshin. What's also interesting is that in the same interview, Toriyama says that Kaioshins' power is currently greater than a Makaioshin. Though that could just mean Mechikabura in his old age is weaker but in his prime could be stronger.
So does that make Zamasu a Makaioshin? since he turned into evil.
I like to believe Zamasu was always a Makaiōshin, as to me, he somehow just was able to sneak his way into becoming a Kai of the Northern Quadrant through as of yet unknown means, and did such a wonderful job as one, he had become the Kaioshin Apprentice of Gowasu, the Supreme Kai of Universe 10.
To me Zamasu was always a Makaiō because as he said in episode 53 "There is something I always think about. Are mortals/humans truly worth protecting?"... so he always had these dark thoughts and wanted to get ride of these mortals. I mean if he could he would kill them all without hesitation when he was a simple North Kai, but he didn't do it because he was afraid of the consequences, so he decided to act like a good guy because he had no choice. Even if he didn't meet Son Goku, sooner or later, he would still kill all mortals so he was always a bad Kaiō for me.
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Re: "(Super) Dragon Ball Heroes" Official Discussion Thread

Post by mahakaishin1991 » Sat Jun 23, 2018 1:27 pm

BrolyKale wrote:
Steven Bloodriver wrote:
BrolyKale wrote:So does that make Zamasu a Makaioshin? since he turned into evil.
I like to believe Zamasu was always a Makaiōshin, as to me, he somehow just was able to sneak his way into becoming a Kai of the Northern Quadrant through as of yet unknown means, and did such a wonderful job as one, he had become the Kaioshin Apprentice of Gowasu, the Supreme Kai of Universe 10.
To me Zamasu was always a Makaiō because as he said in episode 53 "There is something I always think about. Are mortals/humans truly worth protecting?"... so he always had these dark thoughts and wanted to get ride of these mortals. I mean if he could he would kill them all without hesitation when he was a simple North Kai, but he didn't do it because he was afraid of the consequences, so he decided to act like a good guy because he had no choice. Even if he didn't meet Son Goku, sooner or later, he would still kill all mortals so he was always a bad Kaiō for me.
I disagree. Zamasu had doubts about humanity sure but that doesnt make him evil, only a cynic. The shit with Goku pushed him over the edge, and we have no evidence to support the idea he was a total snake in the grass from day one, otherwise he wouldn't have been presented as he was from his North Kai days in the special art.

This is like trying to argue Old Kai is bad because he's a pervert and lust is a sin, therefore he evil. He had the potential to be bad sure, but he wasn't born a makaio, just he had the potential.

And no, he needed that catalyst to change, that's the whole point of him fighting goku in the anime.

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Re: "(Super) Dragon Ball Heroes" Official Discussion Thread

Post by BrolyKale » Sat Jun 23, 2018 1:32 pm

And no, he needed that catalyst to change, that's the whole point of him fighting goku in the anime.
He didn't need Goku to change, like you said he always had "doubts" about mortals, with or without Goku he'd still find a way to get ride of mortals, sooner or later. He just met Goku at that time and lost to him and has motivated him even more to kill all mortals, that's all.
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Re: "(Super) Dragon Ball Heroes" Official Discussion Thread

Post by mahakaishin1991 » Sat Jun 23, 2018 1:33 pm

So I wonder if we will see any plot for Ozotto and what he is, how the cast will react to him etc

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Re: "(Super) Dragon Ball Heroes" Official Discussion Thread

Post by mahakaishin1991 » Sat Jun 23, 2018 1:34 pm

BrolyKale wrote:
And no, he needed that catalyst to change, that's the whole point of him fighting goku in the anime.
He didn't need Goku to change, like you said he always had "doubts" about mortals, with or without Goku he'd still find a way to get ride of mortals, sooner or later. He just met Goku at that time and it just motivated him even more to kill all mortals, that's all.
get ride?

and yes he did, goku confirmed his worst fears if you watched the series.

SO yes, as you said, Goku was the motivation to go further

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Re: "(Super) Dragon Ball Heroes" Official Discussion Thread

Post by BrolyKale » Sat Jun 23, 2018 1:49 pm

Get ride = exterminate.

Yes, I watched the series Zamasu even mentioned that mortals are dangerous beings and I know Goku was the trigger and the motivation to go further, but he is not the reason of Zamasu's evil thoughts, well not directly anyway. In the Manga he wanted to kill mortals way before he met Son Goku. This is what he said to Shin in the Manga "I disagree... I think you made a most wonderful decision. Unnecessary existences should be eliminated".

So for me he never been a good Kaiõ to begin with. Like I said he just didn't act earlier because he was afraid of the consequences, Kibito also dislikes mortals but he never said anything about killing them.
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Re: "(Super) Dragon Ball Heroes" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TheDevilsCorpse » Sat Jun 23, 2018 2:01 pm

It would have been nice if the franchise had just elaborated a bit further, either with the Demon Gods and stuff in Heroes or with Zamasu in Super. But they didn't, and at this point probably won't. (I'd love to be proven wrong in the future though, please.)

I don't really know why Mike and them went with the wording the did on the actual translation page. Herms' initial translation on the forum and the version used in the Demon Guide are phrased more so that evil Shinjin only go to be with the Makaio and Makaioshin in Makai, with the exact origin of said Makaio and Makaioshin still being unclear.

[spoiler]
Herms wrote:Cosmos
Next is a question on how Toriyama came up with the structure of the DB cosmos. He said it was so that it would be easy for both him and the readers to understand. As he explains, it’s this big ball, divided up into the living world and afterlife, and outside that ball are the Kaioshin.

But, Toriyama adds, at the bottom of that big ball, like an antipode, is the Demon Realm (Makai), where there are the Makaioshin (“Gods of the Kings of the Demon Realm; an obvious counterpart to the Kaioshin), who rule over evil. Toriyama says that it seems at the moment, the Kaioshin’s power is greater than the Makaioshin (Japanese not really having a plural form, it’s unclear from all this whether there is only one Makaioshin or more). To go along with this information, there’s another reprint of the standard picture of the DB cosmos, with labels for the Kaioshin Realm, 4 Kaio Planets, and the Demon Realm. The Demon Realm is labeled as being in that little tip at the bottom of the cosmos, like it was in Daizenshuu 7 (in Daizenshuu 4, where the DB cosmos map was first printed, the Demon Realm wasn’t labeled).

Where Kaio come from
Toriyama is next asked what the Kaio’s heredity system is like. Toriyama explains that inside the giant ball that is the DB cosmos is a world called Planet Kaishin (World-Core), which is where the Kaio are all born and raised. This planet is like a giant version of the Kaio Planets that North Kaio and the others live on. On it is a gigantic tree (or trees; the lack of Japanese plural clouds up things again), the Kaiju (World-Tree), and the Kaio are all born from the fruit of this tree, as Shin-jin (Core-People). The population of this planet is about 80. The Shin-jin are genderless, and their average life expectancy is said to be 75,000 years. They live leisurely lives, studying various things at a school-like castle. But whenever one of the Kaio on the Kaio Planets passes away, they draw lots among themselves to choose who will take that Kaio’s place and become the new Kaio. The Kaioshin, however, are chosen only from among Shin-jin born from a special golden fruit that is particularly rare. Occasionally there are delinquent Shin-jin with evil hearts, and they go to be with the Makaio (“Demon Realm Kings”; apparently the Demon Realm answer to the Kaio, like the Makaioshin are to the Kaioshin, though Toriyama doesn’t explain the term).

So there you have it: the supreme gods of the DB cosmos are chosen by lottery. As Crow T. Robot would say, this is weird theology. There’s a diagram illustrating the whole Kaiju fruit thing, showing South Kaio comes from a normal fruit, and East Kaioshin coming from a golden one. There’s also a picture of North Kaio, remarking on his luck at the lottery, and one of Goku saying he’s surprised Kaio wasn’t chosen for his bad jokes.
Kanzenshuu Demon Guide wrote:According to Toriyama in the 2009 Super Exciting Guide: Character Volume, the Demon Realm is home to the Makaiō (魔界王; “Demon Realm Kings”) and Makaiōshin (魔界王神; “Gods of the Demon Realm Kings”), who rule over evil and are the antitheses of the Kaiō and Kaiōshin. Toriyama does not really say where Makaiō and Makaiōshin come from, only that delinquent members of the Shin-jin (literally “Core People”; the Kaiō and Kaiōshin are members of this race) go to be with the Makaiō and Makaiōshin. It is not clear whether these evil Shin-jin ultimately become Makaiō and Makaiōshin themselves, or if they simply serve as their allies. It is not known how many Makaiō and Makaiōshin there are, though if they are like their good counterparts, there should be five of each. Importantly, it is also unclear whether or not Dabra himself is a Makaiō or Makaiōshin. He is called the king of the Demon Realm (魔界の王/makai no ō), which is what “Makaiō” means, but the terms “Makaiō” and “Makaiōshin” are never used in the series. Also, Toriyama says that currently, the Makaiōshin are weaker than the Kaiōshin, but East Kaiōshin was terrified of Dabra’s strength. It is possible that Dabra is simply a “regular” inhabitant of the Demon Realm who happens to have surpassed the gods who are supposed to be supreme there, similar to how Goku himself eventually surpassed the various regular gods, including Kaiōshin.
[/spoiler]
So while you can headcanon it however you want until they elaborate (if they do), that is all it is. I'd probably err with the notion that evil Shinjin aren't Makaio and Makaioshin, and that we have yet to see one in the franchise. Otherwise it'd have been super easy to label any of the new characters as such in the years since. Even back when the information was first released. Dabra already existed. If he was meant to be a Makaio, he could have been used as an example at that time.
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Re: "(Super) Dragon Ball Heroes" Official Discussion Thread

Post by mahakaishin1991 » Sat Jun 23, 2018 4:32 pm

BrolyKale wrote:Get ride = exterminate.

Yes, I watched the series Zamasu even mentioned that mortals are dangerous beings and I know Goku was the trigger and the motivation to go further, but he is not the reason of Zamasu's evil thoughts, well not directly anyway. In the Manga he wanted to kill mortals way before he met Son Goku. This is what he said to Shin in the Manga "I disagree... I think you made a most wonderful decision. Unnecessary existences should be eliminated".

So for me he never been a good Kaiõ to begin with. Like I said he just didn't act earlier because he was afraid of the consequences, Kibito also dislikes mortals but he never said anything about killing them.
1. Ride and Rid do not mean the same thing fyi

2. The description in the guidebook about makaio says they are born evil and are thus cast out to be ruled by the demon supreme kai. Zamasu had a pure heart, he was just misguided. He also wasn't cast out either, so he was close, but not quite what the description indicated. In fact, thinking on it, the closest people we can see to this are Mechikabura (going off his design reflecting a number of Core People traits) and maybe Demigra given his supreme kai of time candidacy and being expelled, only to become a demonic creature, after all both are wearing potara earings, and why would they have them had they not been supreme kai?

3. You're doing a bit of headcanon gymnastics to indicate even in his youth, where he was shown optimistic and dutiful about his kai position and doing good, that it was all a ruse, when it isn't presented in any way to show that. Your headcanon doesnt fit the evidence

4. Discussing the manga/anime facts and theories doesnt fit the fact we are talking about the games. Lets stay on topic or make a forum topic about this in a more relevant part of the forums

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Re: "(Super) Dragon Ball Heroes" Official Discussion Thread

Post by jeffbr92 » Sat Jun 23, 2018 6:51 pm

Demigra is a really interesting villain, I wish he was made up to the animated series instead of games.
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Re: "(Super) Dragon Ball Heroes" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Majin Demigra » Sat Jun 23, 2018 8:39 pm

I think this explains why Shroom is a thing. In DB episode 81 Shura says Enma and Kami permit Death Gods to use the entrance to Demon Realm

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Re: "(Super) Dragon Ball Heroes" Official Discussion Thread

Post by MisteryOne » Sat Jun 23, 2018 9:09 pm

I seriously hope they have the balls to give Cold both a four/ fifth form and a Golden one and not what they did with Cooler. It would be even better if they remembered Frieza is Golden because he chose it. Cooler choosing the same color doesn't have an explanatiom as far as I'm aware... and if it is that he did it after his little brother that would be kinda out of character and lame imho.

That being said I still see tons of potential on Cold. I wonder if Cooler does have a complete different personality like the one Toei gave Frieza on the anime ToP. Could anyone who read the manga tell me if that is the case?

And if SSB Vegetto is fighting the evil saiyan on his base... that's dissapointing in tons of ways, unless suddenly Kaioken and Blue Shinka are huge boosts from normal Blues. Then again I think that was just shown in a teaser for the anime? I may be wrong them since the game may take a totally different direction. Do we know how the saiyan broke free from his control on the manga/game?
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Re: "(Super) Dragon Ball Heroes" Official Discussion Thread

Post by ShadowBardock89 » Sat Jun 23, 2018 9:27 pm

MisteryOne wrote:I seriously hope they have the balls to give Cold both a four/ fifth form and a Golden one and not what they did with Cooler. It would be even better if they remembered Frieza is Golden because he chose it. Cooler choosing the same color doesn't have an explanatiom as far as I'm aware... and if it is that he did it after his little brother that would be kinda out of character and lame imho.
This is precisely why "Platinum Cooler" would have been more appropriate.
Platinum is placed on a higher position than gold, usually in rankings in video games, records, etc.
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Re: "(Super) Dragon Ball Heroes" Official Discussion Thread

Post by mahakaishin1991 » Sun Jun 24, 2018 4:09 am

ShadowBardock89 wrote:
MisteryOne wrote:I seriously hope they have the balls to give Cold both a four/ fifth form and a Golden one and not what they did with Cooler. It would be even better if they remembered Frieza is Golden because he chose it. Cooler choosing the same color doesn't have an explanatiom as far as I'm aware... and if it is that he did it after his little brother that would be kinda out of character and lame imho.
This is precisely why "Platinum Cooler" would have been more appropriate.
Platinum is placed on a higher position than gold, usually in rankings in video games, records, etc.
Yeah, see I have mixed feelings on it, because i feel platinum should be reserved for the king

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Re: "(Super) Dragon Ball Heroes" Official Discussion Thread

Post by majinwarman » Sun Jun 24, 2018 4:36 pm

VegettoEX wrote:
szopman wrote:Where the heck do you read Prison Planet manga guys? Someone could write me on PM, please ? :D
Shueisha's Saikyō Jump magazine is released on a bimonthly basis. Yoshitaka Nagayama's Super Dragon Ball Heroes: Universe Mission manga series began in the May 2018 issue (released back in April). It's only two chapters in thus far (May and July issues, released in April and June, respectively).

Saikyō Jump is available for international purchase via sites like Amazon Japan and CDJapan. You generally need to pre-order to guarantee you'll get a copy.
Is there a way to get a trustable translation of the manga?
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Re: "(Super) Dragon Ball Heroes" Official Discussion Thread

Post by mahakaishin1991 » Sun Jun 24, 2018 5:14 pm

majinwarman wrote:
VegettoEX wrote:
szopman wrote:Where the heck do you read Prison Planet manga guys? Someone could write me on PM, please ? :D
Shueisha's Saikyō Jump magazine is released on a bimonthly basis. Yoshitaka Nagayama's Super Dragon Ball Heroes: Universe Mission manga series began in the May 2018 issue (released back in April). It's only two chapters in thus far (May and July issues, released in April and June, respectively).

Saikyō Jump is available for international purchase via sites like Amazon Japan and CDJapan. You generally need to pre-order to guarantee you'll get a copy.
Is there a way to get a trustable translation of the manga?
I've asked this before myself and sadly not right now. I just bought the dark demon realm missions and the manga is pretty easy to follow even with basic japanese and a dictionary/a wild guess from the images

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Re: "(Super) Dragon Ball Heroes" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Sandubadear » Sun Jun 24, 2018 9:26 pm

majinwarman wrote:
VegettoEX wrote:
szopman wrote:Where the heck do you read Prison Planet manga guys? Someone could write me on PM, please ? :D
Shueisha's Saikyō Jump magazine is released on a bimonthly basis. Yoshitaka Nagayama's Super Dragon Ball Heroes: Universe Mission manga series began in the May 2018 issue (released back in April). It's only two chapters in thus far (May and July issues, released in April and June, respectively).

Saikyō Jump is available for international purchase via sites like Amazon Japan and CDJapan. You generally need to pre-order to guarantee you'll get a copy.
Is there a way to get a trustable translation of the manga?
Alakazam posts translations here whenever he can, and afaik they're good.
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Re: "(Super) Dragon Ball Heroes" Official Discussion Thread

Post by sintzu » Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:26 am

If Cooler is able to use the Golden form with his final form, does that mean we could potentially see Freeza take on Cooler's form as well ? potentially also combining it with his Golden form ?
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