DBZ at EVO...Possible?

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Re: DBZ at EVO...Possible?

Post by dbboxkaifan » Sun Jul 20, 2014 3:59 pm

budokaifanatic007 wrote:The reason we dont have a Hardcore DBZ game right now is because the casuals have become the voice of the fans :-[ .
The only remaining audience for these Dragon Ball home console games are its fans, because the casuals or such would rather play a more popular fighting game such as.. Street Fighter IV, Mortal Kombat 9, Dead or Alive 5, Tekken Tag 2, Marvel Vs. Capcom 3 Ultimate, Skullgirls or other titles.

If Bandai Namco loses the fans then there's no one to keep purchasing them.
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Re: DBZ at EVO...Possible?

Post by Quebaz » Sun Jul 20, 2014 5:06 pm

dbboxkaifan wrote:
budokaifanatic007 wrote:The reason we dont have a Hardcore DBZ game right now is because the casuals have become the voice of the fans :-[ .
The only remaining audience for these Dragon Ball home console games are its fans, because the casuals or such would rather play a more popular fighting game such as.. Street Fighter IV, Mortal Kombat 9, Dead or Alive 5, Tekken Tag 2, Marvel Vs. Capcom 3 Ultimate, Skullgirls or other titles.

If Bandai Namco loses the fans then there's no one to keep purchasing them.
Exaclty, they don't even have the casuals anymore, last time they did was with Budokai 3. If anything making an 2d DBZ fighter would bring the casual audience back (with the right marketing of course).
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Re: DBZ at EVO...Possible?

Post by Supa Saiya-Jin Tullece » Mon Jul 28, 2014 2:58 pm

It seems as though everyone is skirting around the completely obvious: None of these games are competitively viable save, potentially, for Super DragonBall Z.

Budokai 3? Infinite World? Sparking? Burst Limit? None of them have any real depth. Nearly all of the characters are identical and the mechanics themselves are shallow, if not entertaining. For years DragonBall fans have been scared of inputs that require more than tilting a stick and pushing a button. The lack of meaningful, depth adding mechanics leads to an unentertaining metagame with a horrendously small skill gap.

Budokai 3/Infinite World/Shin Budokai's combos involve tapping one, maybe two buttons for five consecutive attacks. Once you land a kick, if you guard after finishing a combo you can cancel in to another combo. This continues until the damage scales to 1 damage per hit, unless you reset it with a special which, like Gohan's Dragon Punch and Bardock's Heat Phalanx, can be chained in to each other. That's pretty much all of the depth that exists in those games. Once you understand that and get a decent grasp of Ki management you have no where to go. That's literally the entire metagame.

Sparking/Raging Blast depends heavily on imperfect information, which is why people hated SFxT's gems. There are a few more cancels and a bit of depth through the sheer number of options available, but that's relative to its other DragonBall brethren. It's still infinitely more shallow that most of the games being played at EVO. Add in the MvC2 level tiers evident in S!/N/M/RB/2 and suddenly you've got even fewer reasons to watch the game.

Maybe if Bamco got it together and decided it was going to make a competitive game with actual depth in the metagame it would have a chance, but as it stands there's just no way.

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Re: DBZ at EVO...Possible?

Post by budokaifanatic007 » Mon Jul 28, 2014 3:16 pm

Supa Saiya-Jin Tullece wrote:It seems as though everyone is skirting around the completely obvious: None of these games are competitively viable save, potentially, for Super DragonBall Z.

Budokai 3? Infinite World? Sparking? Burst Limit? None of them have any real depth. Nearly all of the characters are identical and the mechanics themselves are shallow, if not entertaining. For years DragonBall fans have been scared of inputs that require more than tilting a stick and pushing a button. The lack of meaningful, depth adding mechanics leads to an unentertaining metagame with a horrendously small skill gap.

Budokai 3/Infinite World/Shin Budokai's combos involve tapping one, maybe two buttons for five consecutive attacks. Once you land a kick, if you guard after finishing a combo you can cancel in to another combo. This continues until the damage scales to 1 damage per hit, unless you reset it with a special which, like Gohan's Dragon Punch and Bardock's Heat Phalanx, can be chained in to each other. That's pretty much all of the depth that exists in those games. Once you understand that and get a decent grasp of Ki management you have no where to go. That's literally the entire metagame.

Sparking/Raging Blast depends heavily on imperfect information, which is why people hated SFxT's gems. There are a few more cancels and a bit of depth through the sheer number of options available, but that's relative to its other DragonBall brethren. It's still infinitely more shallow that most of the games being played at EVO. Add in the MvC2 level tiers evident in S!/N/M/RB/2 and suddenly you've got even fewer reasons to watch the game.

Maybe if Bamco got it together and decided it was going to make a competitive game with actual depth in the metagame it would have a chance, but as it stands there's just no way.
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Re: DBZ at EVO...Possible?

Post by SingleFringe&Sparks » Mon Jul 28, 2014 4:02 pm

Supa Saiya-Jin Tullece wrote: Budokai 3? Infinite World? Sparking? Burst Limit? None of them have any real depth. Nearly all of the characters are identical and the mechanics themselves are shallow, if not entertaining. For years DragonBall fans have been scared of inputs that require more than tilting a stick and pushing a button. The lack of meaningful, depth adding mechanics leads to an unentertaining metagame with a horrendously small skill gap.

Budokai 3/Infinite World/Shin Budokai's combos involve tapping one, maybe two buttons for five consecutive attacks. Once you land a kick, if you guard after finishing a combo you can cancel in to another combo. This continues until the damage scales to 1 damage per hit, unless you reset it with a special which, like Gohan's Dragon Punch and Bardock's Heat Phalanx, can be chained in to each other. That's pretty much all of the depth that exists in those games. Once you understand that and get a decent grasp of Ki management you have no where to go. That's literally the entire metagame.
I never understood how impractical imputs for simple projectiles equalled depth in SF's case. Down, Down-Forward, Forward + Punch just to shoot 1 small projectile. I found BurstLimit/Shin Budokai more logical with its just Forward + E attack. A lot of the convoluted feeling SF had for me felt too unecessary for me to really accept when trying to get into the game. *Prepares Flame Shield*
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Re: DBZ at EVO...Possible?

Post by VegettoEX » Mon Jul 28, 2014 4:06 pm

SingleFringe&Sparks wrote:I never understood how impractical imputs for simple projectiles equal depth in SF's case. Down, Down-Forward, Forward + Punch just to shoot 1 small projectile. I found BurstLimit/Shin Budokai more logical with its just Forward + E attack. A lot of the convoluted feeling SF had for me felt too unecessary for me to really accept when trying to get into the game. *Prepares Flame Shield*
The continued motion allows for chaining moves and combos together. By starting with "down" for the fireball motion, you can actually start with, say, a low/quick kick, continue the directional motion through to a fireball, and you have a simple two-hit combo. You can do a similar thing with a standing punch that goes into a dragon punch (F -> D -> D/F + P).

And that's the basic level of the depth :). Sky's the limit from there.
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Re: DBZ at EVO...Possible?

Post by Taku128 » Mon Jul 28, 2014 4:27 pm

Quarter Circle motions and its ilk also make for far less accidental inputs than single direction + button specials. Every once in awhile in Smash Bros you'll see somebody accidentally do a Side-B attack while trying to recover and end up killing themselves. It's pretty rare that you end up doing a fireball motion in Street Fighter but didn't intend on throwing a fireball.

To go back to the topic of DBZ at Evo they just need a game with enough depth that thus garners enough of a following. I don't think Injustice is a good game, but it's proof that licensed games can have enough of a scene to get into Evo. (But Warner Bros sponsoring the event also helps. I think BanNam would rather focus on Tekken at Evo though.)
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Re: DBZ at EVO...Possible?

Post by BlazingFiddlesticks » Mon Jul 28, 2014 4:34 pm

Supa Saiya-Jin Tullece wrote:It seems as though everyone is skirting around the completely obvious: None of these games are competitively viable save, potentially, for Super DragonBall Z.

Budokai 3? Infinite World? Sparking? Burst Limit? None of them have any real depth. Nearly all of the characters are identical and the mechanics themselves are shallow, if not entertaining. For years DragonBall fans have been scared of inputs that require more than tilting a stick and pushing a button. The lack of meaningful, depth adding mechanics leads to an unentertaining metagame with a horrendously small skill gap.

Budokai 3/Infinite World/Shin Budokai's combos involve tapping one, maybe two buttons for five consecutive attacks. Once you land a kick, if you guard after finishing a combo you can cancel in to another combo. This continues until the damage scales to 1 damage per hit, unless you reset it with a special which, like Gohan's Dragon Punch and Bardock's Heat Phalanx, can be chained in to each other. That's pretty much all of the depth that exists in those games. Once you understand that and get a decent grasp of Ki management you have no where to go. That's literally the entire metagame.
I would think its more a given, since the whole topic is a pointless hypothetical. Budokai 3 is basically a game of chaining infinite combos with the occasional teleport escape; at least that's what the few matches between two technical matches recorded for posterity seem to imply.
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Pannaliciour wrote:Reading all the comments and interviews, my conclusion is: nobody knows what the hell is going on.
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Re: DBZ at EVO...Possible?

Post by Quebaz » Mon Jul 28, 2014 5:26 pm

You just proved his point.
VegettoEX wrote:The continued motion allows for chaining moves and combos together. By starting with "down" for the fireball motion, you can actually start with, say, a low/quick kick, continue the directional motion through to a fireball, and you have a simple two-hit combo. You can do a similar thing with a standing punch that goes into a dragon punch (F -> D -> D/F + P).

And that's the basic level of the depth :). Sky's the limit from there.
Back in the SF2 days that did a lot of damage xD.

But not also the depth it adds to the game, you also start to associate certain moves to certain motions, a Image most of the times being a projectile, a Image being an upper cut, and a Image/Image being a special throw, etc etc (not obviously counting the super motions, as those are generaly the same for most characters).
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Re: DBZ at EVO...Possible?

Post by ZeroAnnihilated » Mon Jul 28, 2014 6:51 pm

It is highly unlikely that DBZ will ever play a major role in events like Evo. It isn't because the games have no depth, but simply that most people are unwilling or even unable to acknowledge the true depth that exists. In all honesty, it's like trying to convince a world that believes the world is flat that they are mistaken. Everyone scoffs and shrugs it off, especially in other fight-game communities such as SF... but you must see how frustrating it is to deal with this mindset. Everyone believing the world is flat... and even worse, they prefer it that way.
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Re: DBZ at EVO...Possible?

Post by goku the krump dancer » Wed Jul 30, 2014 12:48 pm

Supa Saiya-Jin Tullece wrote:It seems as though everyone is skirting around the completely obvious: None of these games are competitively viable save, potentially, for Super DragonBall Z.

Budokai 3? Infinite World? Sparking? Burst Limit? None of them have any real depth. Nearly all of the characters are identical and the mechanics themselves are shallow, if not entertaining. For years DragonBall fans have been scared of inputs that require more than tilting a stick and pushing a button. The lack of meaningful, depth adding mechanics leads to an unentertaining metagame with a horrendously small skill gap.

Budokai 3/Infinite World/Shin Budokai's combos involve tapping one, maybe two buttons for five consecutive attacks. Once you land a kick, if you guard after finishing a combo you can cancel in to another combo. This continues until the damage scales to 1 damage per hit, unless you reset it with a special which, like Gohan's Dragon Punch and Bardock's Heat Phalanx, can be chained in to each other. That's pretty much all of the depth that exists in those games. Once you understand that and get a decent grasp of Ki management you have no where to go. That's literally the entire metagame.

Sparking/Raging Blast depends heavily on imperfect information, which is why people hated SFxT's gems. There are a few more cancels and a bit of depth through the sheer number of options available, but that's relative to its other DragonBall brethren. It's still infinitely more shallow that most of the games being played at EVO. Add in the MvC2 level tiers evident in S!/N/M/RB/2 and suddenly you've got even fewer reasons to watch the game.

Maybe if Bamco got it together and decided it was going to make a competitive game with actual depth in the metagame it would have a chance, but as it stands there's just no way.
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I've been meaning to say this about the "Budokai" games for quite some time now. They get a lot of praise for being "Deep" especially compared to the Tenkaichi games but really they're about equal. Punch, Punch, X, Punch, Punch, X, Punch, X, Punch, X is all I see when I watch "Pro" Budokai Players and its nothing special.

Tenkaichi 3 and Budokai 3 have about same level of depth if you ask me Infinite World is a bit better than both and then Super DBZ shits on all of em but still isn't up to par with the likes of Tekken, Street Fighter etc like you said.
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Re: DBZ at EVO...Possible?

Post by funrush » Wed Jul 30, 2014 3:44 pm

Tenkaichi is too unbalanced.
Super DBZ has too many situations where you can get caught by a spammer, and there goes your match, so it would need some tweaking for competitive play.
Infinite World is the best of the Budokais, but it would also need some retweaking to add a little more depth.

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Re: DBZ at EVO...Possible?

Post by budokaifanatic007 » Wed Jul 30, 2014 5:57 pm

You guys cant say anything until you spend time trying to pull off those combos. It may look easy but it sure as hell isnt easy to pull off, just because its a PK system doesnt mean it doesnt have depth . just go watch underlordtico or thesaiyanjin2 and say that isnt depth.....ijs
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Tyestor wrote:How many dicks do I have to suck to get Dimps to make another 3D Budokai-esque game again? My patience is seriously starting to wear thin with these new DB games.

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Re: DBZ at EVO...Possible?

Post by Quebaz » Wed Jul 30, 2014 6:26 pm

budokaifanatic007 wrote:You guys cant say anything until you spend time trying to pull off those combos. It may look easy but it sure as hell isnt easy to pull off, just because its a PK system doesnt mean it doesnt have depth . just go watch underlordtico or thesaiyanjin2 and say that isnt depth.....ijs
It's not that it doesn't have depth, sure you can pull out infinite combos with it, but that's it, there's no other factor to take in consideration in the game, you can't have zoning characters nor rushing characters, literally the first character to 1: either can get the opponent to teleport or 2: get the first hit, easily dominates the match.

Combo possibilities doesn't equate to good meta-game, in that case Tenkaichi 3 and RB2 are deep fighters since you can string 999+ hits there as well.
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Re: DBZ at EVO...Possible?

Post by ZeroAnnihilated » Wed Jul 30, 2014 7:26 pm

Hmm... OK, I think I can help the discussion here.

What EXACTLY is taken into consideration when regarding the depth of a fighting game? Maybe this will help everyone understand exactly what is expected, and also what members from each gaming genre aren't taking into consideration.
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Re: DBZ at EVO...Possible?

Post by BlazingFiddlesticks » Wed Jul 30, 2014 10:02 pm

ZeroAnnihilated wrote:Hmm... OK, I think I can help the discussion here.

What EXACTLY is taken into consideration when regarding the depth of a fighting game? Maybe this will help everyone understand exactly what is expected, and also what members from each gaming genre aren't taking into consideration.
Well, you could start with Quebaz statement; can you find characters in Dragon Ball games serving very different playstyles? Part of this is not a developer's fault, given that almost the entire Dragon Ball cast is fist fighters. There is not a ton of inherent diversity in Dragon Ball's skills line-up, compared to many other Shonen manga or fighting games. Props to Artdink for trying to make a class-based game in a series just barely has enough going on to attempt one.

What's worse, the one constant that could differentiate characters, energy attacks, is largely ignored by both the Dimps and Spike high-level player scenes. Even if it comes down to ki moves not fitting the philosophies these people develop, someone in the chain of developer to player is throwing out what makes these games more than two-button fighters. I can't even remember the last time I saw an energy attack used standalone to great effect in high-level Budokai play. Spike's games do much better at integrating them, as energy attacks and Blast 1 abilities can support a pressuring playstyle, and characters have enough space to move in general that actually hitting someone with a standalone energy blast is routinely possible.
JulieYBM wrote:
Pannaliciour wrote:Reading all the comments and interviews, my conclusion is: nobody knows what the hell is going on.
Just like Dragon Ball since Chapter #4.
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BlazingFiddlesticks wrote:Kingdom Piccolo
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Re: DBZ at EVO...Possible?

Post by budokaifanatic007 » Wed Jul 30, 2014 10:35 pm

BlazingFiddlesticks wrote:
ZeroAnnihilated wrote:Hmm... OK, I think I can help the discussion here.

What EXACTLY is taken into consideration when regarding the depth of a fighting game? Maybe this will help everyone understand exactly what is expected, and also what members from each gaming genre aren't taking into consideration.
Well, you could start with Quebaz statement; can you find characters in Dragon Ball games serving very different playstyles? Part of this is not a developer's fault, given that almost the entire Dragon Ball cast is fist fighters. There is not a ton of inherent diversity in Dragon Ball's skills line-up, compared to many other Shonen manga or fighting games. Props to Artdink for trying to make a class-based game in a series just barely has enough going on to attempt one.

What's worse, the one constant that could differentiate characters, energy attacks, is largely ignored by both the Dimps and Spike high-level player scenes. Even if it comes down to ki moves not fitting the philosophies these people develop, someone in the chain of developer to player is throwing out what makes these games more than two-button fighters. I can't even remember the last time I saw an energy attack used standalone to great effect in high-level Budokai play. Spike's games do much better at integrating them, as energy attacks and Blast 1 abilities can support a pressuring playstyle, and characters have enough space to move in general that actually hitting someone with a standalone energy blast is routinely possible.
Ever heard of Ki canceling?
Bring Back Budokai:https://www.change.org/en-CA/petitions/ ... it-2#intro
Tyestor wrote:How many dicks do I have to suck to get Dimps to make another 3D Budokai-esque game again? My patience is seriously starting to wear thin with these new DB games.

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Re: DBZ at EVO...Possible?

Post by BlazingFiddlesticks » Wed Jul 30, 2014 10:37 pm

budokaifanatic007 wrote:Ever heard of Ki canceling?
I genuinely have not.
JulieYBM wrote:
Pannaliciour wrote:Reading all the comments and interviews, my conclusion is: nobody knows what the hell is going on.
Just like Dragon Ball since Chapter #4.
son veku wrote:
Metalwario64 wrote:
BlazingFiddlesticks wrote:Kingdom Piccolo
Where is that located?
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Re: DBZ at EVO...Possible?

Post by budokaifanatic007 » Wed Jul 30, 2014 10:45 pm

BlazingFiddlesticks wrote:
budokaifanatic007 wrote:Ever heard of Ki canceling?
I genuinely have not.
Hope i didnt sound like an Asshole but here is an example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8e96Zcm ... rf-pGrXKfA
Bring Back Budokai:https://www.change.org/en-CA/petitions/ ... it-2#intro
Tyestor wrote:How many dicks do I have to suck to get Dimps to make another 3D Budokai-esque game again? My patience is seriously starting to wear thin with these new DB games.

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Re: DBZ at EVO...Possible?

Post by BlazingFiddlesticks » Wed Jul 30, 2014 10:56 pm

budokaifanatic007 wrote:
BlazingFiddlesticks wrote:
budokaifanatic007 wrote:Ever heard of Ki canceling?
I genuinely have not.
Hope i didnt sound like an Asshole but here is an example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8e96Zcm ... rf-pGrXKfA
Have to ask, are you TheSaiyanjin2? I found the channel recently, even though its years old!

All I saw in that video was a great Bardock Exhibition that did not challenge my assertion at all; although I did not know ki blasts keep grounded enemies on the ground. Makes them a lot more useful, for sure.
JulieYBM wrote:
Pannaliciour wrote:Reading all the comments and interviews, my conclusion is: nobody knows what the hell is going on.
Just like Dragon Ball since Chapter #4.
son veku wrote:
Metalwario64 wrote:
BlazingFiddlesticks wrote:Kingdom Piccolo
Where is that located?
Canada

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