Same defense for roster in Xenoverse used for FighterZ

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SSJ Human
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Same defense for roster in Xenoverse used for FighterZ

Post by SSJ Human » Wed Mar 14, 2018 4:19 pm

This is probably a confusing title. Three years ago when the first Xenoverse game came out I can recall the defense of the roster being that characters played differently as opposed to the Tenkaichi series. The roster was criticized for missing basic characters like most of the Androids, and various forms of Frieza, Cell, and Buu. After FighterZ came out, I spoke with a fellow player about my discontent with the game's roster, his defense being that this time the characters played differently. I had flashbacks to when the same argument was made for the first Xenoverse game and thought the defense had run its course by now, especially in light of the DLC confirmed expanding the number of playable characters.

What I want to know is whether anyone else feels that the "this time the characters play different" argument was just an excuse for half-complete games coming out and then increasing the number of characters.

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Re: Same defense for roster in Xenoverse used for FighterZ

Post by Grimlock » Wed Mar 14, 2018 4:36 pm

The developers are gonna put as much characters as they feel like it. People just got badly accustomed with that Budokai Tenkaichi throwing so much characters (and the majority of them did play the same) that they think every developer should do the same. They are not. People don't even play with everyone to begin with, they just complain for the sake of complaining.

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Re: Same defense for roster in Xenoverse used for FighterZ

Post by KBABZ » Wed Mar 14, 2018 5:12 pm

SSJ Human wrote:This is probably a confusing title. Three years ago when the first Xenoverse game came out I can recall the defense of the roster being that characters played differently as opposed to the Tenkaichi series. The roster was criticized for missing basic characters like most of the Androids, and various forms of Frieza, Cell, and Buu. After FighterZ came out, I spoke with a fellow player about my discontent with the game's roster, his defense being that this time the characters played differently. I had flashbacks to when the same argument was made for the first Xenoverse game and thought the defense had run its course by now, especially in light of the DLC confirmed expanding the number of playable characters.

What I want to know is whether anyone else feels that the "this time the characters play different" argument was just an excuse for half-complete games coming out and then increasing the number of characters.
With the XV2 argument, I feel that's just fans grasping at straws to have more characters thrown in. "Plays differently" is equivalent to "the beam attack is a different shape".

FighterZ however has legitimate playstyle differences; Android 16 is a slow slugger, Goku is an all-rounder, and Yamcha has unconventional animations for his moves. Much like in other fighting games, every character needs to work with the rest of the roster in an intentional way (advantage, counter, etc). Ironically, at the same time you could argue that FighterZ's lack of show-accurate battle powers (Yamcha can KO Beerus) means that lower-tier characters have more viability to be included.

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Re: Same defense for roster in Xenoverse used for FighterZ

Post by Lightdasher » Fri Mar 16, 2018 7:40 pm

I think you'll probably just have to become desensitized to it. I don't know if this was used for the first Budokai game, but I could very well imagine it was. It's definitely something I see for games like the Raging Blast 1 and Burst Limit.

Unless we're on the development team, it's fair to say that most of us are just grasping at straws because having a bigger roster is almost always appealing, so I tend to ignore such complaints as I see them now. The only time I care is if a character I personally like is excluded (Goten not being playable in FighterZ or Budokai 1), but even then I brush it off as my own personal problem -- I don't want to rain on the parades for anyone that adores the game, and lacking these characters doesn't make them worse.
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Re: Same defense for roster in Xenoverse used for FighterZ

Post by KayDash » Sat Mar 17, 2018 7:53 am

SSJ Human wrote:What I want to know is whether anyone else feels that the "this time the characters play different" argument was just an excuse for half-complete games coming out and then increasing the number of characters.
Considering how almost all of the other classic style fighting game series had smaller launch roster then FighterZ, and considering my experience with game development which includes some time spent with a fighting game engine, I'd say it's pretty much not an excuse.
Delaying Broly's and Bardock's release this much also indicates that it's an actual new content they are working on, not something they finished already and left out from the base game.

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Re: Same defense for roster in Xenoverse used for FighterZ

Post by Logania » Sat Mar 17, 2018 10:27 pm

I don't really think it's a defense, because characters in FighterZ ARE mostly different compared to other Dragon Ball games.

Characters have similar BnB combo links and projectile moves, but every character aside from the beginner friendly characters like SSJ Goku/Vegeta all handle moves, play styles and roles differently. You can't just pick up Piccolo and try to use him exactly like Beerus, Hit or Nappa unlike let's say Xenoverse where you only have to learn what combo attack you can stamina break them on.

Although i wish there were a bit more characters, it's the first title in its game series that has been built from the ground up. I understand they can't really give a lot of characters because they take a lot of time to make, I also gave leniency to Xenoverse 1 and Tenkaichi 1 with their small rosters yet Xenoverse 2 has no excuse because besides DLC the main roster was almost the same size as XV1.
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Re: Same defense for roster in Xenoverse used for FighterZ

Post by Lightdasher » Sun Mar 18, 2018 7:36 pm

Logania wrote:I understand they can't really give a lot of characters because they take a lot of time to make, I also gave leniency to Xenoverse 1 and Tenkaichi 1 with their small rosters yet Xenoverse 2 has no excuse because besides DLC the main roster was almost the same size as XV1.
Yeah, we didn't even get a playable Demigra. :( I can only speculate, so I won't go into "why methinks this happened", but I can't help but feel short-changed due to DLC. Probably because I'm not a fan of buying DLC characters.., but still!
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Re: Same defense for roster in Xenoverse used for FighterZ

Post by SSJ Human » Tue Mar 27, 2018 1:44 pm

Grimlock wrote:The developers are gonna put as much characters as they feel like it. People just got badly accustomed with that Budokai Tenkaichi throwing so much characters (and the majority of them did play the same) that they think every developer should do the same. They are not. People don't even play with everyone to begin with, they just complain for the sake of complaining.
I can agree with the roster of those games having made us used to large rosters, but how would you know that everyone is complaining for "the sake of complaining"? That is where I feel that your post comes up short, though I do concede our expectations may have been raised to levels unfair for following franchises.
KBABZ wrote:With the XV2 argument, I feel that's just fans grasping at straws to have more characters thrown in. "Plays differently" is equivalent to "the beam attack is a different shape".

FighterZ however has legitimate playstyle differences; Android 16 is a slow slugger, Goku is an all-rounder, and Yamcha has unconventional animations for his moves. Much like in other fighting games, every character needs to work with the rest of the roster in an intentional way (advantage, counter, etc). Ironically, at the same time you could argue that FighterZ's lack of show-accurate battle powers (Yamcha can KO Beerus) means that lower-tier characters have more viability to be included.
This is an example of what I'm talking about. I can pull up videos from three years ago where people defended the roster of Xenoverse by saying that the characters finally played differently and now it's being recycled here. I don't doubt the differences of the characters in FighterZ at all, but I also don't understand how we're going to pretend as if this same defense was not used for prior games.
Lightdasher wrote:I think you'll probably just have to become desensitized to it. I don't know if this was used for the first Budokai game, but I could very well imagine it was. It's definitely something I see for games like the Raging Blast 1 and Burst Limit.

Unless we're on the development team, it's fair to say that most of us are just grasping at straws because having a bigger roster is almost always appealing, so I tend to ignore such complaints as I see them now. The only time I care is if a character I personally like is excluded (Goten not being playable in FighterZ or Budokai 1), but even then I brush it off as my own personal problem -- I don't want to rain on the parades for anyone that adores the game, and lacking these characters doesn't make them worse.
I would say that I have for the most part. I was personally not favorable of Kid Gohan being excluded but that did not make then nor now consider the game bad in any way other than its roster, which still doesn't mean it's not a good game in my view.
KayDash wrote:Considering how almost all of the other classic style fighting game series had smaller launch roster then FighterZ, and considering my experience with game development which includes some time spent with a fighting game engine, I'd say it's pretty much not an excuse.
Delaying Broly's and Bardock's release this much also indicates that it's an actual new content they are working on, not something they finished already and left out from the base game.
I am aware that past games have had smaller rosters, but a lot of my critique is in holding it to the standards of its predecessors. This game was released in 2018, not 2002, when the first Budokai came out. I would expect that sixteen years of advancement in technology would yield a larger roster, which we've seen in other games, and ideally, I would want around 40 to 50. If this game does have DLC that eventually reaches one of these numbers, I will retain the view that it could have had it from the beginning were they to have actually put time and effort into releasing this.

If I can remember correctly, the first teasers for those two characters came shortly after the game was released, at least late last month. I could see your argument if six months or a year passed but given the closeness of the two releases, that of the game and that of the DLC trailer, I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that those models were made around the time the game was wrapping up its production.
Logania wrote:I don't really think it's a defense, because characters in FighterZ ARE mostly different compared to other Dragon Ball games.

Characters have similar BnB combo links and projectile moves, but every character aside from the beginner friendly characters like SSJ Goku/Vegeta all handle moves, play styles and roles differently. You can't just pick up Piccolo and try to use him exactly like Beerus, Hit or Nappa unlike let's say Xenoverse where you only have to learn what combo attack you can stamina break them on.

Although i wish there were a bit more characters, it's the first title in its game series that has been built from the ground up. I understand they can't really give a lot of characters because they take a lot of time to make, I also gave leniency to Xenoverse 1 and Tenkaichi 1 with their small rosters yet Xenoverse 2 has no excuse because besides DLC the main roster was almost the same size as XV1.
This is a post that is in the realm of what I'm getting at. You disagree with me, as I've acknowledged the difference of characters in FighterZ, but you also admit the fallacy of every single thing being so different and revolutionary to where it makes up for anything that is undesirable, such as the lack of certain characters. And your post even brings up prior examples of small rosters in games and in my view gives adequate critique to the roster in XV2 at its launch. I can only hope that if FighterZ 2 does the same thing, with its roster being almost the same size, that you rebuke it in the same way.
Lightdasher wrote:Yeah, we didn't even get a playable Demigra. :( I can only speculate, so I won't go into "why methinks this happened", but I can't help but feel short-changed due to DLC. Probably because I'm not a fan of buying DLC characters.., but still!
I get what you mean and feel your view, as I've also wondered why make so much content in between games if you're just going to shove it into the next and add a few characters.

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Re: Same defense for roster in Xenoverse used for FighterZ

Post by KayDash » Tue Mar 27, 2018 3:48 pm

SSJ Human wrote:
KayDash wrote:Considering how almost all of the other classic style fighting game series had smaller launch roster then FighterZ, and considering my experience with game development which includes some time spent with a fighting game engine, I'd say it's pretty much not an excuse.
Delaying Broly's and Bardock's release this much also indicates that it's an actual new content they are working on, not something they finished already and left out from the base game.
I am aware that past games have had smaller rosters, but a lot of my critique is in holding it to the standards of its predecessors. This game was released in 2018, not 2002, when the first Budokai came out. I would expect that sixteen years of advancement in technology would yield a larger roster, which we've seen in other games, and ideally, I would want around 40 to 50. If this game does have DLC that eventually reaches one of these numbers, I will retain the view that it could have had it from the beginning were they to have actually put time and effort into releasing this.
I don't get the comparison toward Budokai and other DBZ games, those are not from the standard fighting game genre. Especially not Xenoverse or Tenkaichi which ones belongs to that arena fighter genre like all of those Gundam games.
It's only a fair comparison, if you compare it to games from the same genre, and you just have to look back on the past years: Tekken 7, Street Fighter V, MvC: Infinite, Injustice 2, Guilty Gear Xrd or even Them Fightin Herds and Skullgirls. FighterZ has nothing to be ashamed of with it's launch roster.

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Re: Same defense for roster in Xenoverse used for FighterZ

Post by Quebaz » Tue Mar 27, 2018 4:30 pm

People (me included) said that the Xenoverse's characters played differently because at face value they did seem more varied than the rosters of Sparking and Raging Blast. Come Xenoverse 2 and the only difference in them is knowing when to land a stamina break during a combo-string.

Meanwhile, while FighterZ's current combo routes can be kinda similar (and we're seeing changes to this right now as well), character usage in neutral/setups does vary and even 2 players will use the same character in different ways.
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Re: Same defense for roster in Xenoverse used for FighterZ

Post by Logania » Tue Mar 27, 2018 7:12 pm

SSJ Human wrote: This is a post that is in the realm of what I'm getting at. You disagree with me, as I've acknowledged the difference of characters in FighterZ, but you also admit the fallacy of every single thing being so different and revolutionary to where it makes up for anything that is undesirable, such as the lack of certain characters. And your post even brings up prior examples of small rosters in games and in my view gives adequate critique to the roster in XV2 at its launch. I can only hope that if FighterZ 2 does the same thing, with its roster being almost the same size, that you rebuke it in the same way.
Glad I could give you a post that you're looking for...I think lol

But in regards to FighterZ 2, yes I would complain about the roster the same as other game sequels in the franchise if it is so small. With minor updates to other fighting games like examples of Super SF4 or Xrd Revelator 2, I can get the thing of minor improvements and character inclusions being not too grand because it IS the same game, just an expansion, fixes and more modes for a better experience and it has a smaller price than a regular game.

But for Xenoverse 2 it is basically an add-on that is a whole other $60 AND they want you to pay around $30-50 more for the game to actually feel like a completely new game...1 and a half years later, expansion of an expansion to make a complete game is atrocious. If FighterZ does the same thing (and since ArcSys is making it, it might be a possibility oh God) then I would actually wait a year or so for a price drop.
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Re: Same defense for roster in Xenoverse used for FighterZ

Post by EXBadguy » Wed Mar 28, 2018 8:59 pm

KBABZ wrote: With the XV2 argument, I feel that's just fans grasping at straws to have more characters thrown in. "Plays differently" is equivalent to "the beam attack is a different shape".
No, that ain't true. Characters in XV2 play differently as most of them have different combo functions and mechanics. For example, Fused Zamasu doesn't have the same triangle combo as Goku, as FZ fires ki blasts (charging the button will give him multiple ki blasts) while Goku is more close combat and does some flurry attacks. Another example is Trunks launching an enemy up in a square, triangle combo, while Vegeta stuns the opponent in the same combo. See where I'm going with this?

Unlike Tenkaichi, I say about 90% of the roster for Xenoverse 2 have different combo functions, as the other %10 are just forms. Tenkaichi on the other hand basically has about a few combos types, similar to the early Budokai games (basically 1 & 2), as there is one combo set for big characters, one for the teleporters, and one for melee combatants. I say get rid of all the henchman characters (Saibaman, Cell Jr. Frieza Soldier) and just focus on the combos on the main cast, make them more unique as possible.
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