Why did Toei hire Yamamoto for Kai in the first place?

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SpiritBombTriumphant
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Why did Toei hire Yamamoto for Kai in the first place?

Post by SpiritBombTriumphant » Thu Aug 29, 2019 1:58 am

Before you make a post responding to the title, please read this. We know thanks to VegettoEX's Kenji Yamamoto Retrospective that the Dragon Ball Kai incident was not the first time Toei has dealt with Yamamoto's plagiarism. "Battle Point Unlimited" was a mix of three Propaganda songs that was never again released on a CD after the initial one it came out on, and it is the only track to do so. Obviously, Toei knew it had been plagiarized but swept the incident under the rug so to speak. Having listened to this fan-made version of BPU using the actual songs from Propaganda's releases, it's obvious that Yamamoto did this 100% intentionally without any artistic merit of his own nor any attempt to do something original.

For me, in my personal opinion, one incident like this and I would never hire that "musician" again if I was in charge and someone I hired pulled something like this. But this is what I don't get. We all know that Shunsuke Kikuchi retired at the time after scoring DBZ thus Toei hired Akihito Tokunaga for GT's score composition. With Toei having hired him before, why would they go to someone who had plagiarized in the past instead of hiring a competent musician they had worked with before and had zero complaints? I feel like a part of the plagiarism incident that happened at the end of Kai's television run in Japan is Toei's fault. They knowingly hired someone who had plagiarized at least once and it was completely intentional. They should have known there would be a risk hiring someone like that just like retail managers, restaurant managers, etc. won't hire someone whom they know quit without notice/walked out of his/her previous job. It's like a person not hiring a convicted felon. So why would these idiots hire someone who had plagiarized before, even if just once (to their knowledge)?

I know this may be expecting much from a group of imbeciles who can't render a movie without accidentally adding a green tint to it, and then not bothering to fix it, but still. This move cost them money and the risk of a lawsuit. I also liked Tokunaga's score for GT and would have liked to hear him again if they had to make a new score for Kai, which I believe was a bad move.

EDIT: (Korin's) Tower Thought: Is this franchise cursed by Japanese people whose name start with "Yama-"? Everyone in the fandom seems to hate Yamamuro as if he shot their dog, and Yamamoto goes and does this...
alakazam^ wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2015 7:24 pm
Shiyonasan wrote:Just when you thought there couldn't be anymore Yamamoto rip offs...
At this point, I think it's safe to say everything he did was plagiarized. Basically, if you hear a tune that sounds like it could have vocals, then it most likely did.

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Re: Why did Toei hire Yamamoto for Kai in the first place?

Post by VegettoEX » Thu Aug 29, 2019 10:41 am

Yamamoto was and still is good friends with certain members of the production and creative side of things (namely Hironobu Kageyama himself, near as I can tell). He had been working on and with the franchise for decades, arranging songs for the television series and films and ancillary music merchandise as well as video games, and was therefore an integral part of the team. It made total sense to me at the time for them to hire him, so I'm not surprised at all that they felt the same way.

It's easy to look back now after so much digging has been done, but at the time ten years ago? It was a super easy and logical choice.

It's tempting to say "Japan just doesn't care about mild musical plagiarism" when you look at the entire history of it in even just video games alone. I don't know how fair it is, but it's certainly always come across that way, and they only got cold feet when Kai started becoming a larger success internationally.
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Re: Why did Toei hire Yamamoto for Kai in the first place?

Post by SpiritBombTriumphant » Sun Sep 15, 2019 7:02 pm

VegettoEX wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 10:41 am
they only got cold feet when Kai started becoming a larger success internationally.
So would you say that Toei threw Yamamoto under the bus to save themselves? Or do you think that there truly were possible lawsuits coming at them if the infringing music wasn't removed?
alakazam^ wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2015 7:24 pm
Shiyonasan wrote:Just when you thought there couldn't be anymore Yamamoto rip offs...
At this point, I think it's safe to say everything he did was plagiarized. Basically, if you hear a tune that sounds like it could have vocals, then it most likely did.

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Re: Why did Toei hire Yamamoto for Kai in the first place?

Post by jjgp1112 » Wed Oct 09, 2019 5:20 pm

SpiritBombTriumphant wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 7:02 pm
VegettoEX wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 10:41 am
they only got cold feet when Kai started becoming a larger success internationally.
So would you say that Toei threw Yamamoto under the bus to save themselves? Or do you think that there truly were possible lawsuits coming at them if the infringing music wasn't removed?
Well the whole thing that led to his dismissal were the two songs from Kai that plagiarized Avatar and Terminator 4. First they scrubbed those songs from International broadcasts before replacing the whole score, so it was probably just to cover their asses in case there was other stuff. I know a lot of stuff from the Kai score was ripped off from the Mortal Kombat Movie soundtrack but most of those were ripoffs rather than outright plagiarism like Battle Point Unlimited and the Avatar & T4 tracks
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Re: Why did Toei hire Yamamoto for Kai in the first place?

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Fri Oct 11, 2019 12:19 pm

SpiritBombTriumphant wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 7:02 pm
VegettoEX wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 10:41 am
they only got cold feet when Kai started becoming a larger success internationally.
So would you say that Toei threw Yamamoto under the bus to save themselves?
Essentially yes... Toei saw the plagiarism accusations on YouTube and cut all ties with Yamamoto because the staff have no heart.
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DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=31207&p=969551#p969545

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Re: Why did Toei hire Yamamoto for Kai in the first place?

Post by SuperSaiyaManZ94 » Fri Oct 11, 2019 7:07 pm

DBZAOTA482 wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 12:19 pm
SpiritBombTriumphant wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 7:02 pm
VegettoEX wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 10:41 am
they only got cold feet when Kai started becoming a larger success internationally.
So would you say that Toei threw Yamamoto under the bus to save themselves?
Essentially yes... Toei saw the plagiarism accusations on YouTube and cut all ties with Yamamoto because the staff have no heart.
They were if i heard correct determined to cover their butts with likely being afraid of lawsuits possibly being leveled against them, and thus saw booting Yamamoto from the show and replacing his music compositions as the answer. Of course as we know the Kikuchi replacement score was not placed very well if at all plus this affected the international releases on home video, because they got much less further with it than the Japanese release which made it almost to the end before the scandal struck and same with the TV broadcast. I'm glad that i have the first four Part releases which have the first 52 episodes with the proper Yamamoto music before switching over to the replacement score during Goku's battle as a Super Saiyan with Freeza, and Part 5 actually was supposed to have it before everything hit the fan.

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Re: Why did Toei hire Yamamoto for Kai in the first place?

Post by Robo4900 » Fri Nov 01, 2019 8:37 pm

The thing that's always baffled me is why they didn't just bring back Tokunaga.

I'm given to understand GT was reasonably well-liked in Japan. Most people had lost interest in watching the original run by the time GT was on, so its viewing figures were crap from the start, but I always understood the situation to be that Japanese fans were generally fine with GT. And Toei and Shueisha have never really turned their back on GT; stuff from it continues to pop up in video games, the Heroes anime... BOG was even stated to take place in the original DB+Z+GT anime timeline... So, in theory, there shouldn't really be any reservations there, and he's a really great composer...
So, it's always seemed so odd to me that they didn't just bring Tokunaga back for Kai, TFC, Super, and the new movies.
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Re: Why did Toei hire Yamamoto for Kai in the first place?

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Sat Nov 02, 2019 10:02 pm

Robo4900 wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 8:37 pm
The thing that's always baffled me is why they didn't just bring back Tokunaga.

I'm given to understand GT was reasonably well-liked in Japan. Most people had lost interest in watching the original run by the time GT was on, so its viewing figures were crap from the start, but I always understood the situation to be that Japanese fans were generally fine with GT. And Toei and Shueisha have never really turned their back on GT; stuff from it continues to pop up in video games, the Heroes anime... BOG was even stated to take place in the original DB+Z+GT anime timeline... So, in theory, there shouldn't really be any reservations there, and he's a really great composer...
So, it's always seemed so odd to me that they didn't just bring Tokunaga back for Kai, TFC, Super, and the new movies.
Japanese fans only like certain aspects of GT. GT itself isn't popular in Japan which was even the reason given for why none of its characters made it into Raging Blast 2.

Also GT characters generally only make it in fanservice games like Tenkaichi or Xenoverse which pride themselves on having extremely inflated rosters.
fadeddreams5 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=31207&p=969551#p969545

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Re: Why did Toei hire Yamamoto for Kai in the first place?

Post by linkdude20002001 » Sun Nov 03, 2019 3:28 pm

I think it was the massive international love for Yamamoto's music in the then-recent videogames that led to him being chosen for Dragon Ball Kai. Maybe?

SpiritBombTriumphant wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 1:58 am
We all know that Shunsuke Kikuchi retired at the time after scoring DBZ thus Toei hired Akihito Tokunaga for GT's score composition.
Kikuchi actually composed for "Shin Tenchi Muyo!" (A.K.A. "Tnchi in Tokyo") after DBZ. I think they just wanted some-thing "new" sounding for DBGT.
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