What's that BGM in the Japanese version? Read the OP!

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Re: What's that BGM in the Japanese version? Read the OP!

Post by kenisu3000 » Sat Oct 31, 2020 10:45 pm

Source music is the industry term for music in a film that the characters can hear (diegetic music). This can *sometimes* take the form of stock, but I've always been under the impression the aerobics cue from Sleeping Princess is indeed Kikuchi.
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Re: What's that BGM in the Japanese version? Read the OP!

Post by Terez » Sun Nov 01, 2020 5:31 am

kenisu3000 wrote:
Sat Oct 31, 2020 10:45 pm
Source music is the industry term for music in a film that the characters can hear (diegetic music). This can *sometimes* take the form of stock, but I've always been under the impression the aerobics cue from Sleeping Princess is indeed Kikuchi.
Ah, that makes sense; I don't think you used that term in previous instances. As for the tune, it bugs me. I'm close to 100% on the monster movie music being Kikuchi, but the aerobics thing strikes me as an elevator music rendition of a popular song. I had already decided to put it in the Kikuchi catalogue, though, because we'll likely never know; if it is based on a song, it could easily be a Kikuchi arrangement. Something about the melody feels off for his style but I can't really put a finger on it.

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Re: What's that BGM in the Japanese version? Read the OP!

Post by kenisu3000 » Sun Nov 01, 2020 11:53 am

Terez wrote:
Sun Nov 01, 2020 5:31 am
Ah, that makes sense; I don't think you used that term in previous instances.
The documentation on my site for the three DB movies is different in style from the TV episodes; this is because I redid my cue sheets for the movies about five or six years ago, and I wanted improvement and as much info as possible, so I toyed around with the idea of, on top of other things, indicating when music is source. On the surface it seems like a pointless thing to indicate, but it's a good way of warning the folks who like to rip unreleased music that they can expect that cue to have some kind of noise filter over it to make it sound like it's coming out of a character's stereo or TV speakers. The episode documentation on my site is older, and thus, no indicating of what music is source.
Terez wrote:As for the tune, it bugs me. I'm close to 100% on the monster movie music being Kikuchi, but the aerobics thing strikes me as an elevator music rendition of a popular song. I had already decided to put it in the Kikuchi catalogue, though, because we'll likely never know; if it is based on a song, it could easily be a Kikuchi arrangement. Something about the melody feels off for his style but I can't really put a finger on it.
I think it's safe enough to assume everything from Sleeping Princess is Kikuchi. The melody from the aerobics cue sounds to my ears like it wouldn't be out of place in, say, Dr. Slump (which, as we know, Kikuchi scored), and I don't think they suddenly said "the man we hired to be versatile enough to write an adventure/action/fighting score can't bend enough to write elevator music, so let's dive into what stock music we have on hand". No, that's the attitude they take with the TV series :) That's because, for the music recording sessions meant for the episodes, Kikuchi was more than likely writing based on the suggestion of what scenes might happen in this upcoming arc, rather than having the finished animation in front of him so he could write beat-for-beat.

Of course, I'm wildly speculating, but based on what I know about other productions, I imagine what happened was, for each TV-based session, he was probably given a "music menu" of the kinds of cues the producers would need from him -- like an action cue, a sad cue using a new character's theme, etc. For whatever reason they might not have taken "music that sounds like it's from an aerobics video" into account (or if they did they didn't think it was necessary to have him write material they were only going to use in scenes where a character's TV is on), so most of the time when that kind of music was needed in the TV episodes, they pulled from their non-unique-to-DragonBall stock library.

With the movies things are a little bit different, because Kikuchi would have scored those to picture -- that is, he wrote for specific scenes, beat for beat, rather than having "adding to the (unique-to-DB) library" in mind. Naturally, the movie scores still wound up in said library, because I would hazard a guess that even when he was writing for the movies, he still took into account the fact that a cue might be used later on in the TV series, because most of the movie material flows quite smoothly, without stopping or changing direction in jarring ways to match the action ("Mickey Mousing"), as it sometimes does during Goten and Trunks's comical antics in DBZ movies 10 and 11, for instance.

But I'm getting off track. What I'm saying is, my theory that Kikuchi did score the source music from Sleeping Princess is based around the likelihood that the producers figured, since Kikuchi would be scoring the entire film to picture, why not have him tackle the aerobics video and the monster movie while we've got him here? It's quite a different situation than scoring from a limited-in-foresight music menu, which again, is how I'm guessing things went for the TV-based score writing.

(And then I remembered the stock music from Movie 10, when Goten daydreams of what he'll wish for from the DragonBalls, and my entire theory fell apart.)
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Re: What's that BGM in the Japanese version? Read the OP!

Post by Terez » Sun Nov 01, 2020 12:12 pm

kenisu3000 wrote:
Sun Nov 01, 2020 11:53 am
I'm wildly speculating, but based on what I know about other productions, I imagine what happened was, for each TV-based session, he was probably given a "music menu" of the kinds of cues the producers would need from him -- like an action cue, a sad cue using a new character's theme, etc.
That's more or less consistent with how Sumitomo has described the process (not aware of any Kikuchi comments along those lines).

I just did the DB-Slump crossover episodes not long ago and that got me thinking about documenting Slump music. Has anyone done any work on that? I've never even watched the anime.

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Re: What's that BGM in the Japanese version? Read the OP!

Post by Terez » Sun Nov 01, 2020 10:36 pm

I (mostly) finished movie 2 and I was thinking about this note:
kenisu wrote:After all these years, while doing this renewed documentation I got the feeling that those few seconds we hear of M428: The Murk Kraken Eats Gasuteru might actually just be the tail end of a much longer cue, one that was mostly dialed out.
I had the same thought from an entirely different direction, which is that it's kind of strange that Ghastel has a theme at all, considering it only shows up in two BGM. Seems to suggest he might have originally been intended to play a somewhat larger role, else why give him a theme?

I also thought it was interesting that his theme was introduced in a popularized "Chinese" fashion much like Yamcha's theme was introduced in M1. All parallel fourths and stereotypical Chinese percussion.

Another question, which I already brought up in another thread (because I started out thinking Zestanor had missed a piece, but then I realized what he was thinking, and since I was already there I asked him): is there any particular reason why you went for M441-2 for "Lucifer's End" instead of M441-1? Long day of hard work and I might be missing something, other than the fact that the first 2 bars were cut.

PS: You are a beautiful person and thank you for making this job 100x easier than it otherwise would have been.

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Re: What's that BGM in the Japanese version? Read the OP!

Post by kenisu3000 » Sun Nov 01, 2020 11:25 pm

Terez wrote:
Sun Nov 01, 2020 10:36 pm
it's kind of strange that Ghastel has a theme at all, considering it only shows up in two BGM. Seems to suggest he might have originally been intended to play a somewhat larger role, else why give him a theme?
Well, it's only five notes :) I'm sure giving him a leitmotif just had to do with introducing this one demon as "this guy is significant and will be the main threat to Goku and Kuririn for the next ten minutes". And in fact, it shows up in at least three cues: There's one that was unused in the movie but was tracked just once in the TV series:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKlAPApvHOI

Originally I thought it was one of the many scrapped cues from DB movie 3, but somebody in the comments of Zestanor's video pointed out that it wraps up with Ghastel's theme (which somehow flew right over my head), so it must have been meant for Sleeping Princess.

Man, I would love a full and clear (official) documentation on the recording sessions for the movies, especially Mystical Adventure.
Another question, which I already brought up in another thread (because I started out thinking Zestanor had missed a piece, but then I realized what he was thinking, and since I was already there I asked him): is there any particular reason why you went for M441-2 for "Lucifer's End" instead of M441-1? Long day of hard work and I might be missing something, other than the fact that the first 2 bars were cut.
IIRC it was indeed the fact that the first two bars were cut. It was one of those things where I wasn't quite sure if it was an alternate or not, so I just leaned onto the the possibility for now that the cut might point to it being the unknown alternate, just as a placeholder to tell myself in the future "look out for this one, it may or may not be the CD version". And alternates can sometimes be very tricky to catch. However closely I scrutinize the audio, at the end of the day, it's all just guesswork, and I'm only a fan with no more inside information than any other fan.
PS: You are a beautiful person and thank you for making this job 100x easier than it otherwise would have been.
You're welcome :)
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Re: What's that BGM in the Japanese version? Read the OP!

Post by Terez » Mon Nov 02, 2020 12:26 pm

kenisu3000 wrote:
Sun Nov 01, 2020 11:25 pm
I'm sure giving him a leitmotif just had to do with introducing this one demon as "this guy is significant and will be the main threat to Goku and Kuririn for the next ten minutes". And in fact, it shows up in at least three cues: There's one that was unused in the movie but was tracked just once in the TV series:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKlAPApvHOI

Originally I thought it was one of the many scrapped cues from DB movie 3, but somebody in the comments of Zestanor's video pointed out that it wraps up with Ghastel's theme (which somehow flew right over my head), so it must have been meant for Sleeping Princess.
I'm guessing this one was meant for the scene where he chases after them, leading up to his death? I wouldn't be surprised if some storyboard got cut from that portion, but the ending is not a bad place for him to get eaten.
kenisu3000 wrote:
Sun Nov 01, 2020 11:25 pm
Man, I would love a full and clear (official) documentation on the recording sessions for the movies, especially Mystical Adventure.
Before starting this project I had seen all the DB movies exactly once, around the time the Toei remasters came out. I was a manga girl for DB previous to about 2015. So while I have seen the series with Kikuchi all the way through a couple of times and I am familiar with his score on a sensory level, I've definitely never studied it so this is all very new to me and I'm almost totally in the dark as to what is coming ahead. I'm probably most familiar with Kikuchi's score in movies 11-13 because that was my sole bootleg back in the day (otherwise I just had all of DBZ on VHS with Faulconer).
kenisu3000 wrote:
Sun Nov 01, 2020 11:25 pm
IIRC it was indeed the fact that the first two bars were cut. It was one of those things where I wasn't quite sure if it was an alternate or not, so I just leaned onto the the possibility for now that the cut might point to it being the unknown alternate, just as a placeholder to tell myself in the future "look out for this one, it may or may not be the CD version". And alternates can sometimes be very tricky to catch. However closely I scrutinize the audio, at the end of the day, it's all just guesswork, and I'm only a fan with no more inside information than any other fan.
Fair enough. Since you've already done the bulk of the documentation work, my main task in converting it to the wiki is to dial back on speculation as much as possible (which includes using chronological catalogue numbers rather than fan titles, like I did for Sumitomo), but some acknowledgement of the alternates and the way the M numbers don't add up in the films will be necessary and I hope you don't mind if I continue to appeal to you and others who have studied the music as I try to find the correct approach. (The fan titles are, btw, also acknowledged on each track's individual page, because I'm not trying to make it impossible for people to find this stuff on YouTube or whatever.)

I will probably call this one M441-1 and just make a note on the track's page about the mysterious unreleased alternate version. All tracks will have usage analysis, i.e. how it was chopped up in every instance where it was used, so the cut bars will also be noted. I will probably also need to address the official catalogue structure on every movie page, and maybe every arc page too.

I will also have to decide how to number things like the cut Ghastel track and the Princess-themed Lunch track. Generally I just number tracks by the order in which they are used. If the track is released and never used it can be thrown in at the end of an anime sub-series (like the M100s or M300s, which roughly become K-100s and K-300s in the chronological catalogue, which is made up of usage blocks rather than composition/session blocks) but I haven't really decided what to do with any Kikuchi ones yet because I haven't finished mapping the series. There was one Sumitomo Kai track that was never used in Kai ("Mr. Satan"), but it showed up on the French digital release of roughly 1/3 of the TFC soundtrack, which was released before Super began, so even though it was first used in Super, I tacked it on at the end of the Kai numbers (S-271). I'm not sure that approach works as well for the movies because of the differences in how they are scored. There are unreleased variants on Sumi film tracks that get used in the anime (Kai and Super) and I just numbered those by where they are first used.

Speaking of the Princess theme, how is that generally discussed? From my perspective, there seem to be two distinct and non-overlapping Princess themes (which I have tentatively separated as "legend" and "jewel", though this is exactly the kind of interpretive stuff I'm trying to avoid). And what about the Devil's Castle/Lucifer themes? In that case, two distinct themes also, but even though they're not musically overlapping (aside from key) they are sometimes used together (like the Kuririn and Goku themes are, etc.)

PS: I guess I could separate them as Lunch and Princess themes. That seems less interpretive...

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Re: What's that BGM in the Japanese version? Read the OP!

Post by kenisu3000 » Fri Dec 11, 2020 2:38 pm

The website has moved. I've updated the OP.

Here's the new link
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Re: What's that BGM in the Japanese version? Read the OP!

Post by PurestEvil » Fri Dec 11, 2020 6:45 pm

Hi, I would like to ask: do you ever plan on finishing that "DB and DBZ BGM Overview" page?
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Re: What's that BGM in the Japanese version? Read the OP!

Post by kenisu3000 » Fri Dec 11, 2020 11:47 pm

Of course! The site may currently be a heaping helping of unfinished material, but my pet projects are still my pet projects. My philosophy is, never say never!
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Re: What's that BGM in the Japanese version? Read the OP!

Post by Terez » Wed Feb 17, 2021 12:43 pm

Question for kenisu: In DBZ episode 3, you marked "The Saiyans Appear Theme Music" as an unreleased "Alternate" version. I feel like I am missing something - what's different? (aside from it being cut up, which is normal)

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Re: What's that BGM in the Japanese version? Read the OP!

Post by kenisu3000 » Mon Feb 22, 2021 4:43 am

I seem to remember a regular reader mentioning to me that they were sure that particular instance of the cue was an alternate. That prompted me to scrutinize it more closely, and I suppose at the time I must have heard something that seemed different, or it might have just been the power of suggestion.

Well, your guess is as good as mine. I don't have the DVDs on me at the moment, though, so I can't give it another listen just now.
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Re: What's that BGM in the Japanese version? Read the OP!

Post by Terez » Mon Feb 22, 2021 7:07 pm

Thanks for answering! I am not good at editing but if you or anyone else can suss it out from this, that would be great. I started with Ultimate Uncut just in case there's some thing in the Funi JP audio that I'm not hearing. Then Dragon Box, then OBA, then my hopefully not terrible edit of raw M725 to match.

https://streamable.com/ocw946

It's totally possible that I'm missing something; I get a bit ear-locked on the tonal stuff sometimes and I struggled to make sure I was catching all the percussive elements.

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