Let's Appreciate the Faulconer Score

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Fionordequester
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Re: Let's Appreciate the Faulconer Score

Post by Fionordequester » Sat Oct 24, 2015 1:19 am

ABED wrote:You're splitting hairs. It's not the semantics here that bothers me, what bothers me is Faulconer's constant misunderstanding of the characters and series which he is scoring. I never claimed Faulconer's music is bad because he doesn't play using traditional orchestral instruments, it's bad because it doesn't fit the show, it's usually bland, it runs together, it sounds cheap, it often plays up the wrong emotion, if any. I don't mind a synthesizer as long as it doesn't sound cheap and I can emotionally invest in the music and the scene. It has ZERO to do with the "coconut effect" God I hate that site.
Well, now for that, I cannot argue. And yeah, I am splitting hairs, but that's only because that was the only part of the argument that I can make a logical argument to. It's the only one where I can actually use facts to support my arguments rather than just stating my opinion. And that's not an insult to you or anyone else, it's just what your saying ties in to something that's been on my mind for a while now. So here's what may be a bit of a derail, if you're wondering about why I'm "splitting hairs"...

So here's the thing. I don't think there's much of a point to arguing about whether or not something is "fitting" or "bland" or not. Those are such relative words that can mean so many different things to so many people. Just think of all those topics that Ree posted, and what he said about a dub being accurate if it's "only 30%" of the dialogue is inaccurate. Or just think about that one discussion you had with that guy who thought that Cynthia Cranz (Chi-Chi) and Chris Rager (Mr. Satan) had too strong of a Texan accent. The reason you and them have so much trouble convincing each other is because there's not any kind of magic standard for something that's entirely subjective to begin with.

Like, if you and I were to get into an argument about whether or not Team Faulconer "used enough orchestral tracks" in their work...just how in the world would I "win" the argument? How exactly would we even define "too much" or "too little", scientifically speaking? Would we say that there needs to be at least 1 orchestral piece for every 3 rock or techno tracks in order for it to be "just right"? Because I'll tell you what, there may be guys who would have an entirely different ratio in mind. Some might think having ANY rock or techno tracks would be too much, while OTHER people might say that a "1 to 6 ratio" of orchestral to rock and techno tracks would be "just right"...

So really, the only way someone wins an argument like this is if they...

A) Have a louder voice than the other guy

B) There are more people on their side than the other guy

C) Have more patience and persistence than the other guy


Now, am I going on and on about this? Maybe. But whenever I read a thread like this, it always seems like there's a lot of resentment being created over something that's not even based on fact. It's generally over something that's based on opinion, and you just can't WIN those kinds of arguments! The best you can do is just shout at each other over and over again!

And to be clear, I'm talking about the kinds of arguments I tend to see on message boards in general. I'm not singling anyone out here. I'm just saying that if it seems like I avoid addressing your main point, it's because I CAN'T address it! Not with anything based on facts anyways! Does that sound reasonable?

EDIT: Heck, you said it yourself...
ABED wrote:I guess we could get into a pissing contest of "yeah huh" and "nuh uh", but I'm 30, and I'm getting to old for this shit as they say.
So if I keep repeating myself on the Faulconer score, it's because the question of it being orchestral or not is the only thing I can counter without falling into the trap you described above.
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Re: Let's Appreciate the Faulconer Score

Post by ABED » Sat Oct 24, 2015 8:04 am

The reason you and them have so much trouble convincing each other is because there's not any kind of magic standard for something that's entirely subjective to begin with.
You don't need to tell me that. I'm well aware.
It's generally over something that's based on opinion, and you just can't WIN those kinds of arguments!
No one ever claimed it was.
Music is too subjective for me to say "be good and nice to listen to, " but I feel it should ramp up during action-packed and dramatic scenes.
It's too vague and unhelpful because lots of great music is entertaining, but it wouldn't fit. I'll take a score that isn't memorable as long as it helps the scene. It should all work as a whole. And Kikuchi's score does ramp up during action scenes. I don't recall Faulconer songs that played during dramatic scenes, but I don't imagine they would have helped the scene.
Same goes for SSJ3 Goku's theme in Kai, which accentuates the chaos of the transformation in an awesome way, rather than a theme that succeeds in capturing the emotion of the scene (i.e. wtf is happening? Should we be scared?)
Those questions are a result of the chaos of the scene

Sometimes I read what you write and you keep talking about the exciting music in exciting scenes and it comes across as "I need exciting music in an exciting scene otherwise I won't know it's exciting! Don't you all know how exciting this is?!"
They're both over-the-top heroic. Kikuchi's is more superhero-esque, which captures what people see Mr. Satan as. Faulconer's comes off as a theme for a big shot martial arts/wrestling champion, which is what Hercule really is.
It's Mr. Satan, and Faulconer's is far too subdued to be a theme for anyone that over the top. It doesn't match Mr. Satan's energy. Have you seen wrestling? Their themes are far more over the top than the dub theme. It seems much more like something a king would come out to than a over the top blowhard
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Re: Let's Appreciate the Faulconer Score

Post by fadeddreams5 » Sat Oct 24, 2015 12:49 pm

It's too vague and unhelpful because lots of great music is entertaining, but it wouldn't fit. I'll take a score that isn't memorable as long as it helps the scene. It should all work as a whole. And Kikuchi's score does ramp up during action scenes. I don't recall Faulconer songs that played during dramatic scenes, but I don't imagine they would have helped the scene.
Have you even watched the Funi dub more than once? I get people saying they dislike Faulconer's music and its placement, but when I hear them not recalling much of it or calling it bland, that's just weird to me. :?
Sometimes I read what you write and you keep talking about the exciting music in exciting scenes and it comes across as "I need exciting music in an exciting scene otherwise I won't know it's exciting! Don't you all know how exciting this is?!"
That's not it. I don't know how else to express it, but I have provided examples. Sumitomo's OST is the epitome of bland to me. I rarely ever recall a single theme of his from the movies or a lot of the episodes he's contributed to, but this doesn't bother me because I can't tell it's there. Most of it doesn't excite me, but it doesn't make scenes a drag either. It's just...there...but barely.

Kikuchi's OST is not bland. I'd be lying if I said I can't hum several of his tracks from memory. But most of them sap the energy out of major scenes for me. That's a problem. As a lot of people complain, it makes the show sound like a '60s martial arts movie or dated. I'm not a fan of this. Plain and simple. It's not only DBZ. Kikuchi's OST also ruined another show for me too. I'm simply not fond of his work in anime. Talented man, but not my cup of tea, though there are some gems I really like.
It's Mr. Satan, and Faulconer's is far too subdued to be a theme for anyone that over the top. It doesn't match Mr. Satan's energy.
I think it matches well.
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Re: Let's Appreciate the Faulconer Score

Post by ABED » Sat Oct 24, 2015 2:11 pm

The scenes are what should excite you, the music is there to help
it makes the show sound like a '60s martial arts movie or dated
It's supposed to sound like an old martial arts movie, much like Kill Bill uses that kind of music. Not only does Faulconer's score sound dated, it also sounds cheap, which hurts the product way more than a score that is intentionally a throwback. DB isn't a contemporary show, it's not set in a specific period.
Have you even watched the Funi dub more than once?
Yes, I have. I've heard it at least twice. I can remember a lot of the early cues because of how many times I watched those early season 3 tapes, the rest of it just doesn't stand out.

You don't think this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mudZ3QykX10
is considerably more subdued than this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVgfW6ClFa0
Kikuchi's almost has something John Williams Superman-esque to it.

Faulconer's Trunks theme is memorable and has a hook. I recall it primarily from the seizure inducing commercial, but also because it sounds vaguely similar to perhaps an insert song in the JPN music.
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Re: Let's Appreciate the Faulconer Score

Post by fadeddreams5 » Sat Oct 24, 2015 3:04 pm

It's supposed to sound like an old martial arts movie, much like Kill Bill uses that kind of music.
This goes back to the discussion of DB vs DBZ, which I prefer to not touch again. Kill Bill has an amazing soundtrack that captures that martial arts feel without replicating some '60s martial arts flicks.
Not only does Faulconer's score sound dated, it also sounds cheap, which hurts the product way more than a score that is intentionally a throwback. DB isn't a contemporary show, it's not set in a specific period.
Faulconer's OST sounds '90s to me, though it's still enjoyable for me to listen to. It's technically dated, and was cheaper to produce. Kikuchi's, however, seemed dated since I was a child. I heard his OST BEFORE season 3 of DBZ (i.e. Faulconer era) ever aired in the US, and I truly believed it sounded that way because the Japanese version was so much older.
You don't think this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mudZ3QykX10
is considerably more subdued than this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVgfW6ClFa0
Kikuchi's almost has something John Williams Superman-esque to it.
I like both themes, but I don't find Faulconer's all that subdued. The Japanese OST improved a lot during the Buu saga. Coincidentally, I hear Faulconer haters saying the same thing about his work.
"Dragon Ball once became a thing of the past to me, but after that, I got angry about the live action movie, re-wrote an entire movie script, and now I'm complaining about the quality of the new TV anime. It seems Dragon Ball has grown on me so much that I can't leave it alone." - Akira Toriyama on Dragon Ball Super

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Re: Let's Appreciate the Faulconer Score

Post by ABED » Sat Oct 24, 2015 3:32 pm

Kill Bill has an amazing soundtrack that captures that martial arts feel without replicating some '60s martial arts flicks.
It replicates a lot of that feel. And what is with this almost animosity towards 60's martial arts flicks?
Faulconer's OST sounds '90s to me
That sounds 90's to you? The 90's rock music was Metallica, grunge, and Green Day. How does Faulconer's score sound 90s? DBZ shouldn't sound like any specific era. It's not set in our world, why would you want it to sound contemporary? Even if it did sound 90s, it would immediately date itself since season 3 started in 99.
seemed dated since I was a child
It's not dated, it's vintage.
The Japanese OST improved a lot during the Buu saga
It's mostly the same music.
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Re: Let's Appreciate the Faulconer Score

Post by fadeddreams5 » Sat Oct 24, 2015 4:09 pm

It replicates a lot of that feel. And what is with this almost animosity towards 60's martial arts flicks?
I'm not being literal. It's just my way of saying movie/show soundtracks from a much earlier period don't hold a candle to ones that came later. And no, I'm not talking about how well they fit or emotions this and that. There is no way for me to express this, as it is purely subjective. This discussion is just back and forth opinions, which is what Fionordequester was referring to.
It's mostly the same music.
Five out of eight of the themes I posted in my topic came from the Buu saga.
"Dragon Ball once became a thing of the past to me, but after that, I got angry about the live action movie, re-wrote an entire movie script, and now I'm complaining about the quality of the new TV anime. It seems Dragon Ball has grown on me so much that I can't leave it alone." - Akira Toriyama on Dragon Ball Super

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Re: Let's Appreciate the Faulconer Score

Post by ABED » Sat Oct 24, 2015 6:48 pm

I'm not being literal. It's just my way of saying movie/show soundtracks from a much earlier period don't hold a candle to ones that came later.
That's simply not true. That would be like saying songs from the past don't hold a candle to ones that came later, or movies from the past can't hold a candle to movies that came later.
This discussion is just back and forth opinions, which is what Fionordequester was referring to
I'm well aware of that fact, but why bring it up? Does it really matter that much if it's a back and forth as long as it's civil?
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Let's Appreciate the Faulconer Score

Post by fadeddreams5 » Sat Oct 24, 2015 7:44 pm

That's simply not true. That would be like saying songs from the past don't hold a candle to ones that came later, or movies from the past can't hold a candle to movies that came later.
That's how I feel. I have a hard time watching old, non-animated black and white movies too. Song lyrics and literature are different because they don't change/improve alongside technology like these other mediums. Writing is writing. The beats and sounds, however, of older music ('60s and below) pale in comparison to what came later to me ('70s and above). I'm more a Michael Jackson guy than a Beatles fan. I just listen to stuff I can move my body to. But... that's just me.
Does it really matter that much if it's a back and forth as long as it's civil?
No. But it's just gonna be me stating or explaining my opinion, and you disagreeing. lol.
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Re: Let's Appreciate the Faulconer Score

Post by ABED » Sat Oct 24, 2015 8:19 pm

Led Zeppelin started in the 60s and it's one of the greatest rock bands ever.

Even if you are a Michael Jackson fan (I am as well) that doesn't preclude being a Beatles fan. The Stones are also a 60s band and . The improvement in technology is irrelevant to the quality of the music. Sure, the recordings aren't as good as they have gotten over the years, but that can be excused because how great the music is. There's so much great music out there that I think you are cutting yourself off from because of a bias against older music.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Let's Appreciate the Faulconer Score

Post by fadeddreams5 » Sat Oct 24, 2015 8:48 pm

I'm not being biased, nor saying there isn't great music from older eras. I'm just saying I like a much greater quantity of songs from later eras. Of course, I haven't listened to everything out there. I also mentioned lyrics are timeless, so I'm sure there are many songs from the past that are great, as a result. In terms of sound, beats, and the non-lyrical aspects of music... not much from the early '60s and below I can think of that does it for me. Not much of a fan of classical music, though I do appreciate the talent behind it. =P

Also, Led Zepellin was formed in 1968, IIRC, but reached critical success by the '70s. I think Queen started in the early '70s too. This and '80s are my favorite eras.
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Re: Let's Appreciate the Faulconer Score

Post by ABED » Sat Oct 24, 2015 9:23 pm

fadeddreams5 wrote:I'm not being biased, nor saying there isn't great music from older eras. I'm just saying I like a much greater quantity of songs from later eras. Of course, I haven't listened to everything out there. I also mentioned lyrics are timeless, so I'm sure there are many songs from the past that are great, as a result. In terms of sound, beats, and the non-lyrical aspects of music... not much from the early '60s and below I can think of that does it for me. Not much of a fan of classical music, though I do appreciate the talent behind it. =P

Also, Led Zepellin was formed in 1968, IIRC, but reached critical success by the '70s. I think Queen started in the early '70s too. This and '80s are my favorite eras.
Zeppelin never really had critical success until I think after they were broken up. Led Zeppelin 1 and 2 were big hits when they were released, especially 2. I do think you have this arbitrary line. If it's made in 69 and before, that's bad, if it's afterwards, then it's okay.

Why put modern music on a show that has it's roots in old kung fu movies and eastern folklore? It makes zero sense.

Lastly, the Kung Fu movies that influenced Toriyama were made in the 70's.
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Re: Let's Appreciate the Faulconer Score

Post by fadeddreams5 » Sat Oct 24, 2015 9:58 pm

I do think you have this arbitrary line. If it's made in 69 and before, that's bad, if it's afterwards, then it's okay.
Not really. I don't care what time period anything was made in. If I like it, I like it. I just happen to like things from more modern times more--no, not because they're made in modern times. Doesn't mean I can't appreciate anything of the past. It'd be silly not to since those things paved the way for the things that came later on...
Why put modern music on a show that has it's roots in old kung fu movies and eastern folklore? It makes zero sense.

Lastly, the Kung Fu movies that influenced Toriyama were made in the 70's.
Yeah, the movies inspired him. I like classic martial arts movies; I'm just not fond of their soundtracks on something like DBZ.

Dragon Ball has its roots in old kung fu movies and eastern folklore. However, I've explained how DBZ diverted away from a lot of what was present in DB, making modern music fit much better. Besides, Yamamoto and Sumitomo also put modern music into the show, not just Faulconer.
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Re: Let's Appreciate the Faulconer Score

Post by ABED » Sun Oct 25, 2015 7:18 am

Dragon Ball has its roots in old kung fu movies and eastern folklore. However, I've explained how DBZ diverted away from a lot of what was present in DB, making modern music fit much better. Besides, Yamamoto and Sumitomo also put modern music into the show, not just Faulconer.
No it didn't divert from that. It's roots are still apparent. Yeah it changed, but never that radically and not so much that an entirely different soundtrack fits, especially not at the completely arbitrary point you claim. The Piccolo arc and Saiyan arc are not that different. You have yet to sufficiently explain how those two arcs are so different other than the Saiyans using spaceships. You constantly cherry picked the series and seem to only consider early DB to be DB.

Yamamoto's music doesn't sound cheap, it's not dated and while I like it, it still isn't as much DB as Kikuchi's is. Faulconer's music instantly dates itself. Kikuchi's is timeless, just like the series.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Let's Appreciate the Faulconer Score

Post by fadeddreams5 » Sun Oct 25, 2015 11:41 am

ABED wrote:No it didn't divert from that. It's roots are still apparent. Yeah it changed, but never that radically and not so much that an entirely different soundtrack fits, especially not at the completely arbitrary point you claim. The Piccolo arc and Saiyan arc are not that different. You have yet to sufficiently explain how those two arcs are so different other than the Saiyans using spaceships. You constantly cherry picked the series and seem to only consider early DB to be DB.
I am not taking the bait. This will be the third topic we go back and forth about this. lol.
Yamamoto's music doesn't sound cheap, it's not dated and while I like it, it still isn't as much DB as Kikuchi's is. Faulconer's music instantly dates itself. Kikuchi's is timeless, just like the series.
Do you just find any music made with synthesizers cheap? And Kikuchi's is timeless, I imagine, because it's not made in this manner? Cause I mentioned, as a kid, I already thought it sounded dated.
"Dragon Ball once became a thing of the past to me, but after that, I got angry about the live action movie, re-wrote an entire movie script, and now I'm complaining about the quality of the new TV anime. It seems Dragon Ball has grown on me so much that I can't leave it alone." - Akira Toriyama on Dragon Ball Super

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Re: Let's Appreciate the Faulconer Score

Post by Dbzfan94 » Sun Oct 25, 2015 11:43 am

Not to mini-mod, but isn't it counter-productive to come into a Pro-Faulconer thread with the intention to say it sucks, unfitting, etc?
If you disagree just leave it be.

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Re: Let's Appreciate the Faulconer Score

Post by ABED » Sun Oct 25, 2015 1:50 pm

Do you just find any music made with synthesizers cheap?
Most of it, yes.
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Re: Let's Appreciate the Faulconer Score

Post by voltlunok » Sun Oct 25, 2015 7:27 pm

To contribute a bit to the thread's actual topic, I've always liked the two themes of the Grand Kai. The blues version is definitely my favorite of the two and I think it overall fits his personality, the rock version is definitely good for some fast paced combat but I find the Blues version is actually very relaxing.

Grand Kai Blues

Grand Kai Rocks
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Re: Let's Appreciate the Faulconer Score

Post by Akumaito Beam » Tue Oct 27, 2015 4:02 am

The Legacy of Goku games go to show that my issue with Faulconer's score lay heavily with the placement and Mickey Mousing. I can't stand how the songs are constantly interrupted by nonsense. The songs sound so much better when all the fluff is removed.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPvVQ4eeheo

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Re: Let's Appreciate the Faulconer Score

Post by cRookie_Monster » Wed Oct 28, 2015 10:27 pm

Just reading the discussion here I thought I would note a couple things.
Circus Music
"Android 20 Destroys City" is actually an edit of an earlier track from the Garlic Jr series.

This is the original scene that music was written for:
https://youtu.be/XBl91S7WIZA?t=2m25s

and it was done per orders from Funimation who requested "macabre circus music" for the scene.

They requested the same style for the scene when Android 20 turns into a pole with laser eyes blowing up the city so I just edited in the same track.

Orchestral music and diversity

I'm glad it was pointed out that the Faulconer score does in fact vary and contains plenty of orchestral music(though not live orchestral music). I've written more different styles for that project than on any other: jazz, blues, orchestral, metal, rock ragtime, electronic, industrial, circus, etc.

Just about anything can be done with MIDI imo. (check out this MIDI version of the Rite of Spring) MIDI does mean it's not live orchestra, but doesn't mean the music isn't orchestral. A Beethoven symphony played with crappy MIDI synths is still orchestral music.

As for all synth music being cheap, there's a lot of amazing synth work out that there isn't meant to emulate acoustic instruments and it's definitely an art form. Even if you don't like the popular stuff, there's people who get PHDs in this kind of thing, very out there and artistic.

And the emulated acoustic stuff, phew, it's been 15 years since I worked on the Faulconer score. The orchestra synths we used were largely dated then..and now 16 years later...sheesh the current stuff, I can't even tell the difference a lot of times. This particular work is 11 years old now and is MIDI:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suQF29h3Dlg

Over Bad Ass fight music

Aside from the stylistic diversity of the Faulconer Productions score, I do identify with frustration on the "over badass" issue *at times*. If I had personally written the original SSJ transformation music I would have focused more on that anger than the badassery, but in the end I liked Mike's score. I think the "bad assness" needed to be accentuated at the END of the transformation and he set it up in a way that did that. Honestly if I had done it my way, it probably would have nailed the anger boiling part, but had more trouble with the ending. I dunno, maybe it could all be hit.

The Trunks music is a particularly big example where Faulconer Productions clearly wanted something more heroic, but had to do otherwise. We went from this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGXRr4xLXTg (music is almost synched correctly, slightly off)
to this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGMtXqo1N9E
which, yeah, I created that metal piece just to appease Funimation on the third submission we made for that scene. They wanted "Beyond Belief Heavy" which is why the studio version of the track was called "Beyond Belief"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38UuRqBjLik
The first time I placed it in a scene for Trunks walking up over a hill, it felt so wrong and ridiculous *to me* that I ached from laughter at the absurdity of it. But...there are people that love it, so it's all subjective.
VegettoEX wrote:While I don't think there's much point to storming into a thread like this (titled in that particular way) spewing out dissenting opinions... at the same time, we never want to tell people they can't discuss what they want to discuss. This is a pretty good opening for someone who has zero knowledge of / familiarity with / enjoyment of the Faulconer Productions replacement score to GET some of those thoughts and simultaneously share their own.

So long as you don't just come off as nothing more than yet another wet blanket, discuss away!
Maybe we should ask that the people who don't like the Faulconer score ask genuine questions about why people do like it, keeping an open mind and enabling them to get something out of the thread? :D
voltlunok wrote:To contribute a bit to the thread's actual topic, I've always liked the two themes of the Grand Kai. The blues version is definitely my favorite of the two and I think it overall fits his personality, the rock version is definitely good for some fast paced combat but I find the Blues version is actually very relaxing.

Grand Kai Blues

Grand Kai Rocks
Thanks! The rocking one was meant for a scene where he puts down a jambox and starts breakdancing ^^
After I left Faulconer Productions, I needed a recording of that type of blues playing for a job I was trying to get...I didn't have the original so I made another one I called "Blues in Z". It's a different amp so it sounds a little bit different.
http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=6033562

Also in case you haven't heard it, the sound was inspired (kinda shamelessly) from ZZ Top's Blue Jean Blues:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b76kjd5nvMg
- Scott
http://morganstudios.com

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