Let's Appreciate the Faulconer Score

[fadeddreams5]

I don't know why you think any of Faulconer's themes are great for accentuating action. Is it the "rockin" guitars? Or the cheap synth that go great with crazy martial arts action and the weird brightly colored characters? I'm not saying you have to go with Kikuchi, but Faulconer's score doesn't mesh with DBZ.

There's no way to answer this. I just think it does. Kikuchi never manages to accentuate the action. I can show many comparisons between Faulconer and Kikuchi, where the former works better, but then you'll just disagree. lol.

It doesn't mesh with Dragon Ball Z because it gives off the impression the DBZ is "KICK PUNCH EXPLOSION!!!FUCK YEAH! Which it's not.

But... that's what the series is even known for. Not to say that's all the series is about though. There's also training and finding stuff, which usually results in kicks, punches, and explosions. Fuck yeah.

If the series doesn't emphasize on any of that, then I have no idea what I am doing on this site, why I started watching this series, or why I collected DBZ action figures as a kid and reenacted battles.

The dub has plenty of duds such as the Eldest Namekian theme and the psycho clown music.

I like Guru's theme a lot. No idea what psycho clown music you're referring to.

I can't list Kikuchi duds. I wouldn't call any of them "duds," per say. I just find the majority of it boring and a drag to listen to. It ruined my viewer experience watching Tenchi in Tokyo too. At the time, I felt it seemed like an older series than Tenchi Muyo and Universe (it's not) because of it. Same as DBZ subbed. Mind you, this was my impression as a kid. I'm generally not a fan of Kikuchi, though that's not to say there aren't some tracks of his I really like, because there are.

[Dbzfan94]

I honestly can't think of one Kikuchi dud. The closest is the boing sound in Upa's theme.

The dub has plenty of duds such as the Eldest Namekian theme and the psycho clown music.

There is one theme i enjoy, i think it's the Vegeta theme, it's the one that plays on the Cell dvd singles.

I dont know the names of some but there were some Kikuchi songs i just didnt like. I like almost all of what I heard (although I still prefer Faulconer especially for the Buu Saga) but there were some were just a little misplaced / off-putting.

[ABED]

Kikuchi never manages to accentuate the action. I can show many comparisons between Faulconer and Kikuchi, where the former works better, but then you'll just disagree. lol.

Because that's not all the show is and it does accentuate it just differently, it just doesn't hit you over the head with it.

I like Guru's theme a lot. No idea what psycho clown music you're referring to.

The psycho clown theme is the music that plays when Cyborg 20 destroys the city with his eye lasers.
And the Grand Elder's theme is so soft and boring.

that's what the series is even known for.

It is, but it isn't what made it so popular. It's the combination of characters, humor, story, and action. You don't need music to pound you over the head with "ACTION!" in order for the score to be effective.

[Doctor.]

Adding on to my earlier post, here's one I also enjoy a bit. I think, in general, Faulconer Productions' best work was in the Boo arc.

[fadeddreams5]

The psycho clown theme is the music that plays when Cyborg 20 destroys the city with his eye lasers.
And the Grand Elder's theme is so soft and boring.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUjXKd8DZvI

That one? The first part, I don't like. I really love the theme at 0:38 though. It's so creepy. Made me uneasy as a kid, especially thinking those androids turned the future into a wasteland. The specific track that plays when 20 destroys the city is fittingly chaotic to me. But hearing that scene without any music is pretty terrifying, which I think I do prefer by a bit.

I find the Guru theme soothing and calm.

It is, but it isn't what made it so popular. It's the combination of characters, humor, story, and action. You don't need music to pound you over the head with "ACTION!" in order for the score to be effective.

I agree that it's a combination of that stuff, but when I think "DBZ," action is the first word that comes to mind. Out of those, humor is the weakest link; that's not why I watched, though the comedy did make the experience that much better. Without a good story/plot and memorable set of characters, that action and tension falls down the drain and leaves little to care about. However, get rid of action and intense situations, and the same thing happens. I don't care about Life and Times with Goku and Pals the series.

If there are action sequences, I expect and desire for the music to accentuate it.

[ABED]

If there are action sequences, I expect and desire for the music to accentuate it.

And the way to do that is with BITCHIN geetars and cheap synthesizer music! Kikuchi does accentuate it, but he does it in a way that fits the tone of the tone of the show.

In all seriousness, there are numerous ways to accentuate an action scene, including an orchestral score.

The specific track that plays when 20 destroys the city is fittingly chaotic to me

It doesn't fit, they aren't clowns and it isn't goofy. The music is too silly in comparison to the threat.

I agree that it's a combination of that stuff, but when I think "DBZ," action is the first word that comes to mind.

And the first word that comes to mind is the thing that determines the basis for how the music should be "scored".

However, get rid of action and intense situations, and the same thing happens. I don't care about Life and Times with Goku and Pals the series.

That's not remotely my point. The Faulconer score doesn't understand the characters. If the writers don't get the characters, what makes you think the dub score does.

[fadeddreams5]

And the way to do that is with BITCHIN geetars and cheap synthesizer music! Kikuchi does accentuate it, but he does it in a way that fits the tone of the tone of the show.

In all seriousness, there are numerous ways to accentuate an action scene, including an orchestral score.

I never said Faulconer is optimal. But bombastic music during intense, over-the-top action music accentuates it and makes it more exciting, whether it be orchestra, synthesizers, or whatever. Here's a non-Faulconer scene that does what I expect:
https://youtu.be/uR6DLSwZfYM?t=5m26s

Jeice and Burter plan a sneak attack on Goku after he moves, there's suspense as Goku stays standing, Goku stuns them by deflecting the blast, and he finally fights back. The music ramps during this moment. It makes everything that much more exciting, which is what Faulconer does a lot for me. I have no idea how else to express that, especially to someone who flat out dislikes everything Faulconer ever produced.

None of Kikuchi's themes do this for me. It may accentuate this and that in its own ways, as well as fit the scenes to a tee, but none of it is exciting. Most of it is boring to me, and worse, makes some awesome scenes a drag. Though if I had to point out one track of his that does ramp things up the way I desire, it'd prob be this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_zVOvVoU-Q

It doesn't fit, they aren't clowns and it isn't goofy. The music is too silly in comparison to the threat.

I don't hear "goofy" or "silly," but rather "creepy" and "unnerving." "Chaotic" in the theme that he plays as he blasts most of the city. But I do prefer no music at all for that particular scene.

And the first word that comes to mind is the thing that determines the basis for how the music should be "scored".

That's not remotely my point. The Faulconer score doesn't understand the characters. If the writers don't get the characters, what makes you think the dub score does.

I was writing generally about what the series is known for.

A lot of people make it sound like Faulconer's OST completely changed everything the series is about. All it did was accentuate the most prominent aspect of the show, which is the action and intensity. And yeah, it made things more exciting for fans like me. I disagree that it doesn't mesh well most of the times.

[ABED]

I don't hear "goofy" or "silly," but rather "creepy" and "unnerving." "Chaotic" in the theme that he plays as he blasts most of the city. But I do prefer no music at all for that particular scene.

I hear that it's trying to be creepy and unnerving, but it just comes off as silly. The Halloween theme is unnerving, I would have zero problem with listening to psycho clown music in the dark.

I was writing generally about what the series is known for.

A lot of people make it sound like Faulconer's OST completely changed everything the series is about. All it did was accentuate the most prominent aspect of the show, which is the action and intensity. And yeah, it made things more exciting for fans like me. I disagree that it doesn't mesh well most of the times.

It doesn't accentuate the most prominent aspect, it throws up a sign with flashing neon lights that says "ACTION!" and hammers you with it. There's no subtlety to the "action" score. Where's the heroism, the fun, the tension? All I hear is ACTION and dull, dreary, and droning music. To give an example of how the score completely misses the mark is Goku turning Super Saiyan. Instead of a sense of foreboding, it's all "This is awesome" and "There's going to be ACTION!" Why should a score exist merely to accentuate one aspect or do it in the most unimaginative way possible?

[EXBadguy]

"Faulconer's music doesn't understand the characters"? Heh, and you think Kikuchi's does? Some of the songs Kikuchi use in some Vegeta fights are dull as hell as all we hear is tambourines, banjos and shit. Granted, for some calmer and funny moments, that's where Faulconer's weakness is, but for most action scenes, you think I expect to hear the same generic trumpets and tambourines when I see Frieza stomping the hell outta Vegeta?

[ABED]

"Faulconer's music doesn't understand the characters"? Heh, and you think Kikuchi's does? Some of the songs Kikuchi use in some Vegeta fights are dull as hell as all we hear is tambourines, banjos and shit. Granted, for some calmer and funny moments, that's where Faulconer's weakness is, but for most action scenes, you think I expect to hear the same generic trumpets and tambourines when I see Freeza stomping the hell outta Vegeta?

I'd have to see it in context, but considering that I don't remember it, it's a good sign that I never had a problem with the music in Vegeta's fights.

Generic trumpets and tambourines? I'm not sure what that means.

When 007 kicks ass, I don't expect super hardcore "ACTION" music.

[fadeddreams5]

To give an example of how the score completely misses the mark is Goku turning Super Saiyan. Instead of a sense of foreboding, it's all "This is awesome" and "There's going to be ACTION!" Why should a score exist merely to accentuate one aspect or do it in the most unimaginative way possible?

I disagree. The first part of the theme works perfectly for me, has an air of mystery to it, and I prefer it over any other version of that scene. When the guitar starts after Goku turns SSJ, eh.

As a kid, the emotions of these scenes were pretty lost on me; regardless of the version I watched, all I could think about was how badass Goku's transformation was. Faulconer's music made that scene that much better for me. In the end of the day, this is a cartoon and I want to be entertained by it. Putting the most fitting music possible is excellent, but if it's uninteresting and lacking in intensity, it can make amazing moments like these lackluster. Not my cup of tea. Yamamoto did it better too, though the track he used was a generic one that plays in various other scenes.

[ABED]

all I could think about was how badass Goku's transformation was. Faulconer's music made that scene that much better for me. In the end of the day, this is a cartoon and I want to be entertained by it. Putting the most fitting music possible is excellent, but if it's uninteresting and lacking in intensity, it can make amazing moments like these lackluster. Not my cup of tea. Yamamoto did it better too, though the track he used was a generic one that plays in various other scenes.

Yes, it's a badass moment, and there are tons of those moments, but you don't always have to play the moment as badass. The moment can be received as badass by the audience, but Goku turning Super Saiyan is conveying a sense of omniousness and dread and mystery. Playing everything as badass not only misses the point, it's monotonous. Saying you want to be entertained is great, but it's also vague. There are so many ways to entertain people that to boil every musical cue down to "badass" robs the audience of a more interesting and enjoyable overall experience. The Kikuchi score wasn't lacking in intensity. It was very memorable and strikes all the right chords. Faulconer's is just bland.

[fadeddreams5]

all I could think about was how badass Goku's transformation was. Faulconer's music made that scene that much better for me. In the end of the day, this is a cartoon and I want to be entertained by it. Putting the most fitting music possible is excellent, but if it's uninteresting and lacking in intensity, it can make amazing moments like these lackluster. Not my cup of tea. Yamamoto did it better too, though the track he used was a generic one that plays in various other scenes.

Yes, it's a badass moment, and there are tons of those moments, but you don't always have to play the moment as badass. The moment can be received as badass by the audience, but Goku turning Super Saiyan is conveying a sense of omniousness and dread and mystery. Playing everything as badass not only misses the point, it's monotonous. Saying you want to be entertained is great, but it's also vague. There are so many ways to entertain people that to boil every musical cue down to "badass" robs the audience of a more interesting and enjoyable overall experience. The Kikuchi score wasn't lacking in intensity. It was very memorable and strikes all the right chords. Faulconer's is just bland.

How is Faulconer's bland? It's the opposite. If I can recall like 10+ themes in an OST and enjoy listening to them outside the show, it is not a bland soundtrack. Besides, it's not all just action. This, this, and this are not epic hardcore.

As I mentioned, Faulconer's OST is not optimal. It never stops playing, which was a terrible decision. And yeah, sometimes, it really doesn't fit, such as during Majin Vegeta's sacrifice. That said, it does fit a lot of times, imo, it's exciting, and it entertains. Kikuchi's may be a billion times more fitting, but his soundtrack makes the show a drag to me; the majority of it is boring to listen to. I can't sit through the Japanese or Kai's (w/o Yamamoto) version of the Cell saga. His version of Vegeta's sacrifice is the absolute worse for me too (Sumitomo did it best).

An optimal soundtrack should fit, know when to pause, and entertain, such as Attack on Titan or Naruto Shippuden's OSTs. And Mad Max.

[ABED]

Other than a few cues here and there, they run together or I don't remember them. That's why I consider it bland.

and entertain

I'd say a good score should help the emotion of the scene. Entertain is too vague.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

I like the Faulconer Prod. score. But only for the old dub. I feel they compliment each other well. But for the new stuff and Kai, idk it feels very weird, those videos on YT that replaced the Kai and BoG tracks just didn't feel right to me for some reason, maybe because I heard the Japanese score before*? For whatever reason I just can't get into the score with the newer dubs.

*I also feel it is too cheap sounding compared to the Japanese score.

[Fionordequester]

And the way to do that is with BITCHIN geetars and cheap synthesizer music! Kikuchi does accentuate it, but he does it in a way that fits the tone of the tone of the show.

In all seriousness, there are numerous ways to accentuate an action scene, including an orchestral score.

I agree. Which is why I am so glad that orchestral instruments actually WAS a huge part of the FaulconerProductions soundtrack (and yes, I will bring that up every time someone tries to say that the OST was nothing but rock and techno).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nb294wqrdAw (skip to 4:10)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GdmuACZqByM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ayj7gIRNtoc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7F3a130l2c

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3l7PEj1cKc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmKnIVoWh2U

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0h9-QgzoeZg (Turn the quality up and skip to 0:20)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CzApzm5 ... 5&index=14

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gH7I5Xg9WK8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cq3KW0 ... V&index=13 (some guitars in the end, but it's still basically orchestral)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ufq0OBvg2k (this one is heavy on electronic guitars, but I think you'll see why I still count it)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zx2XeRofjI

And that's just the most notable pieces there. If you want to take another look at the inhouse dub, I you'll find that orchestral music is a near CONSTANT part of the Team Faulconer music, even if it is mixed in with a lot of rock and techno as well. And yes, none of these were done with "real" instruments, but that really does not matter. Saying that these are not orchestral would be like saying that this song...

Maybe I'm a Lion

Does not ever use any guitars or drums. You would technically be right...but I would argue that you would be interpreting things way too literally.

[ABED]

I don't think any of those pieces count as orchestral. I'm not hearing anything you can't do on a synthesizer. The biggest difference between older FF games and Faulconer's tracks is the space available to put an orchestra. I just hear bland music coming from Faulconer. I like the Trunks theme, that's about it. FFVII has an amazing soundtrack despite being on the cheap (for lack of a better word), it doesn't interfere with the emotions it's helping convey.

A great example of Kikuchi's score in comparison to Faulconer is Mr. Satan's theme. Kikuchi's is sufficiently over the top heroic, whereas Faulconer's wasn't.

[Fionordequester]

I don't think any of those pieces count as orchestral. I'm not hearing anything you can't do on a synthesizer. The biggest difference between older FF games and Faulconer's tracks is the space available to put an orchestra. I just hear bland music coming from Faulconer. I like the Trunks theme, that's about it. FFVII has an amazing soundtrack despite being on the cheap (for lack of a better word), it doesn't interfere with the emotions it's helping convey.

A great example of Kikuchi's score in comparison to Faulconer is Mr. Satan's theme. Kikuchi's is sufficiently over the top heroic, whereas Faulconer's wasn't.

Here's the thing though. You can DO orchestral music on a synthesizer! You don't NEED real instruments! You don't need real instruments to make an orchestral piece any more than you need real instruments to make a rock piece! Orchestral music is just another genre of music that can be done even with, say, a Super Nintendo. In fact, it HAS been done on a Super Nintendo! Look no further than these pieces!

But, I do think I understand what you're trying to say. Pardon me if I'm wrong, but I think the real problem here is that you don't think these pieces sound like how you think orchestral music should sound. When you think of orchestral music, you think of how Kikuchi sounded, so if something sounds radically different than how Kikuchi sounded (like if said orchestral song was done on a synthesizer), you have a hard time recognizing it as orchestral. Which is fair. In fact, it's called the "Coconut Effect" as described here.

The Coconut Effect

So what I want you and the other users to realize is that not everything has to sound like Kikuchi in order to be an orchestral piece! Because whether you like them or not, the pieces I've listed ARE orchestral! Seriously, I contacted a professional musician and everything to confirm the fact that they are orchestral, even if they were were done with MIDI instruments.

[ABED]

You're splitting hairs. It's not the semantics here that bothers me, what bothers me is Faulconer's constant misunderstanding of the characters and series which he is scoring. I never claimed Faulconer's music is bad because he doesn't play using traditional orchestral instruments, it's bad because it doesn't fit the show, it's usually bland, it runs together, it sounds cheap, it often plays up the wrong emotion, if any. I don't mind a synthesizer as long as it doesn't sound cheap and I can emotionally invest in the music and the scene. It has ZERO to do with the "coconut effect" God I hate that site.

[fadeddreams5]

I'd say a good score should help the emotion of the scene.

That's part of "fitting" to me.

Entertain is too vague.

Music is too subjective for me to say "be good and nice to listen to, " but I feel it should ramp up during action-packed and dramatic scenes.

Like this scene from AoT:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXEw6Zot4j8

Stomps are heard, everyone is scared and confused over what is coming, a boulder is seen moving, and then BAM... the music ramps up as it's revealed to be Eren moving it in titan mode. Kikuchi's OST could actually fit that scene a lot better, accentuate the ire and mystery, or play nothing at all, but that's not as entertaining/exciting as this.

Same goes for SSJ3 Goku's theme in Kai, which accentuates the chaos of the transformation in an awesome way, rather than a theme that succeeds in capturing the emotion of the scene (i.e. wtf is happening? Should we be scared?), but is... a bit of a snooze fest for such an interesting moment.

A great example of Kikuchi's score in comparison to Faulconer is Mr. Satan's theme. Kikuchi's is sufficiently over the top heroic, whereas Faulconer's wasn't.

They're both over-the-top heroic. Kikuchi's is more superhero-esque, which captures what people see Mr. Satan as. Faulconer's comes off as a theme for a big shot martial arts/wrestling champion, which is what Hercule really is.