Are there people that actually hate the Vegeta's Hells Bells music?

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Are there people that actually hate the Vegeta's Hells Bells music?

Post by DBZfan2015 » Thu Dec 22, 2016 9:42 am

I'm just curious. I frigging love it. I miss that bad boy/anti-hero music that plays whenever he is around.

Do some people hate it?

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Re: Are there people that actually hate the Vegeta's Hells Bells music?

Post by VegettoEX » Thu Dec 22, 2016 9:47 am

Are you referring to music from the Faulconer Productions replacement score in FUNimation's English dub?

It's probably... maybe... I guess...?... the closest approximation I can think of offhand to the original Kikuchi score in that it channels some more traditional instruments and melodies, but... it just doesn't work for me. Just like the rest of that score, it sounds totally hollow. I feel nothing from it.

(Moving this over to the "Music" sub-section of the forum.)
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Re: Are there people that actually hate the Vegeta's Hells Bells music?

Post by Soppa Saia People » Thu Dec 22, 2016 12:07 pm

No matter what you like, someone else will hate it.
Also, the name "Hells Bells" annoys the fuck outta me. This isn't AC/DC.
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Re: Are there people that actually hate the Vegeta's Hells Bells music?

Post by DBZfan2015 » Thu Dec 22, 2016 12:23 pm

VegettoEX wrote:Are you referring to music from the Faulconer Productions replacement score in FUNimation's English dub?

It's probably... maybe... I guess...?... the closest approximation I can think of offhand to the original Kikuchi score in that it channels some more traditional instruments and melodies, but... it just doesn't work for me. Just like the rest of that score, it sounds totally hollow. I feel nothing from it.

(Moving this over to the "Music" sub-section of the forum.)
Yes, I'm referring to the Faulconer music. That heavy metal music that plays whenever Vegeta's around.

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Re: Are there people that actually hate the Vegeta's Hells Bells music?

Post by Dbzfan94 » Thu Dec 22, 2016 12:26 pm

Its not really heavy metal at all though.

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Re: Are there people that actually hate the Vegeta's Hells Bells music?

Post by ekrolo2 » Fri Dec 23, 2016 2:22 pm

Yes but we don't talk about these people much. We just send Agent Smirnoff after them.
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Re: Are there people that actually hate the Vegeta's Hells Bells music?

Post by Jinzoningen MULE » Fri Dec 23, 2016 6:40 pm

Yeah, definitely not heavy metal, it's a pretty light, synthy variant of rock, and no, I don't like it very much. That said, it's not too bad by Faulconer Score standards.
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Re: Are there people that actually hate the Vegeta's Hells Bells music?

Post by TheMikado » Fri Dec 23, 2016 7:30 pm

That music is what literally made me love Vegeta forever, prior to that it was future Trunks and before that Gohan and Yamcha, never a Goku fan... Anyway I wish I could have that music play every time I walked into a room so everybody knew I was getting ready to F S up! I personally find it incredibly intimidating.

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Re: Are there people that actually hate the Vegeta's Hells Bells music?

Post by Saikyo no Senshi » Fri Dec 23, 2016 9:51 pm

Yep. I despise it. I had to skip most of Vegeta's scenes cause of that track while watching the FUNimation dub. Although, Sabat's beyond terrible acting is another reason, but that music just doesn't sound right.

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Re: Are there people that actually hate the Vegeta's Hells Bells music?

Post by Thanos » Fri Dec 23, 2016 10:35 pm

It's a similar anachronism to the nu metal shit that was shoehorned into some of the earlier feature dubs. It simply doesn't fit with a product of the late 80's/early 90's--it sounds like it came straight out of the year 2000.
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Re: Are there people that actually hate the Vegeta's Hells Bells music?

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Thu Dec 29, 2016 10:55 pm

I love it. :angel:
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Re: Are there people that actually hate the Vegeta's Hells Bells music?

Post by Dbzfan94 » Fri Dec 30, 2016 12:04 am

DBZAOTA482 wrote:I love it. :angel:
Me too :)

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Re: Are there people that actually hate the Vegeta's Hells Bells music?

Post by Fionordequester » Fri Dec 30, 2016 4:50 am

Thanos wrote:It's a similar anachronism to the nu metal shit that was shoehorned into some of the earlier feature dubs. It simply doesn't fit with a product of the late 80's/early 90's--it sounds like it came straight out of the year 2000.
And the old Kikuchi score sounds like it came from like, the 60's. But does that make it bad or unfitting? Not necessarily; so I don't know why we're using that logic to criticize this particular piece.
Kataphrut wrote:It's a bit of a Boy Who Cried Wolf situation to me...Basically, the boy shouldn't have cried wolf when the wolves just wanted to Go See Yamcha. If not, they might have gotten some help when the wolves came back to Make the Donuts.
Chuquita wrote:I liken Gokû Black to "guy can't stand his job, so instead of quitting and finding a job he likes, he instead sets fire not only to his workplace so he doesn't have to work there, but tries setting fire to every store in the franchise of that company".

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Re: Are there people that actually hate the Vegeta's Hells Bells music?

Post by VegettoEX » Fri Dec 30, 2016 11:26 am

Dragon Ball's entire aesthetic is invoking the 60s/70s and therefore comes together as a cohesive package. When you strip out part of that and plop in an entirely different culture's musical aesthetic from after its creation, you wind up with a disjointed product out of time with no identity of its own.
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Re: Are there people that actually hate the Vegeta's Hells Bells music?

Post by Blade » Fri Dec 30, 2016 12:07 pm

VegettoEX wrote:When you strip out part of that and plop in an entirely different culture's musical aesthetic from after its creation, you wind up with a disjointed product out of time with no identity of its own.
Or a re-contextualised (Barry Watson era Funimation preferred 're-versioned', I believe) product for a new market. But I guess that depends on one's own product familiarity and which side of the Atlantic-fence you're looking-in from.

I'd be more inclined to agree with that point of view from an artistic standpoint if the Dragonball anime had been conceptualised as a single cohesive package across modalities - but it hadn't. Kikuchi wasn't hired by Toriyama to write specific music in a specific tone, and he probably wasn't directed overly heavily by Toei either. He was already such an established composer at that time, and as we know, his mandate wasn't to underscore the moving images directly as a film composer would. So much of how his music was deployed was done by a third-party who was responsible for placement. Interestingly enough, I believe that Bruce and co didn't just build up stock banks and handle placement, I think they actually handled each episode sequentially (albeit on a horrendously hurried schedule).

But yeah, taste is subjective. To some people there will only ever one definitive version of the show - but I'm a little more open to coexistence than some, perhaps.
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Re: Are there people that actually hate the Vegeta's Hells Bells music?

Post by Fionordequester » Fri Dec 30, 2016 3:48 pm

VegettoEX wrote:Dragon Ball's entire aesthetic is invoking the 60s/70s and therefore comes together as a cohesive package. When you strip out part of that and plop in an entirely different culture's musical aesthetic from after its creation, you wind up with a disjointed product out of time with no identity of its own.
Alright. So if I'm getting you right, you believe that 60's animation needs 60's music to accompany it; or that 90's animation needs 90's music to accompany it.

So here's what I'd like you to do; I don't know if the Nicktoons forums are still up, but look at all forum posts made before Yamamoto's music was taken out. Are they complaining about how the music doesn't match how the show looks? I would guess no; probably because they don't have any expectations about how the show's music should match the look of the show.
Kataphrut wrote:It's a bit of a Boy Who Cried Wolf situation to me...Basically, the boy shouldn't have cried wolf when the wolves just wanted to Go See Yamcha. If not, they might have gotten some help when the wolves came back to Make the Donuts.
Chuquita wrote:I liken Gokû Black to "guy can't stand his job, so instead of quitting and finding a job he likes, he instead sets fire not only to his workplace so he doesn't have to work there, but tries setting fire to every store in the franchise of that company".

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Re: Are there people that actually hate the Vegeta's Hells Bells music?

Post by VegettoEX » Fri Dec 30, 2016 5:14 pm

Fionordequester wrote:Alright. So if I'm getting you right, you believe that 60's animation needs 60's music to accompany it; or that 90's animation needs 90's music to accompany it.
I'm not quite sure that you actually read what I wrote. You and I both know that Dragon Ball isn't from the 60s. Or 70s. It's from the 80s (and later 90s), but has music that evokes the stylings and instruments of those prior decades. This is part of what makes it magical and timeless.

It's not a 90s show with 90s animation and 90s music. The only time it ever was... was GT, I guess.
Fionordequester wrote:So here's what I'd like you to do; I don't know if the Nicktoons forums are still up, but look at all forum posts made before Yamamoto's music was taken out. Are they complaining about how the music doesn't match how the show looks? I would guess no; probably because they don't have any expectations about how the show's music should match the look of the show.
I have massive problems with Kai's audio and visual approach, so those folks' opinions hold no water with me. I see Kai as the same type of haphazard mish-mash that FUNimation's product was, and dislike it on a base level for those exact same reasons. The random retraced scenes in the middle of nowhere don't help its cause.
Blade wrote:I'd be more inclined to agree with that point of view from an artistic standpoint if the Dragonball anime had been conceptualised as a single cohesive package across modalities - but it hadn't. Kikuchi wasn't hired by Toriyama to write specific music in a specific tone, and he probably wasn't directed overly heavily by Toei either. He was already such an established composer at that time, and as we know, his mandate wasn't to underscore the moving images directly as a film composer would.
Yes and no. There was very specific guidance given to what the look, feel, and sound of the show was to be.

Off the top of my head (mainly because we haven't put up many translations with Kikuchi), chief designer Yuji Ikeda addressed this a bit, also briefly touching on Toriyama's direction:
Yuji Ikeda wrote:At the beginning, I aimed for backgrounds with a Chinese-style transparency, and also depth, in accordance with Toriyama-sensei‘s wishes; however, they turned out more like fairy tale-style, Chinese-landscape paintings, without much sense of dimension.

But as the action-type elements became stronger, the art design would also have to change, and the art came to be more realistic, with a sense of depth. Bright, but a sort of imposing power of its own. Except things like Kame House have the same atmosphere as they’ve had up till now, though, so there might be some dissonance there. (laughs)
But no, I'm not going to sit here with my hands over my ears believing that Kikuchi scored to the episode. We all know he didn't. Especially later on, a huge amount of music was composed for the films and reused in the show.

But they were still the group creating this property in this medium from the ground up, and yes, there was a vision there. I'm far more interested in that vision than I am someone else's (or, speaking to an earlier point, even the same company's new vision thirty years later).
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Re: Are there people that actually hate the Vegeta's Hells Bells music?

Post by Fionordequester » Fri Dec 30, 2016 6:38 pm

VegettoEX wrote: I'm not quite sure that you actually read what I wrote. You and I both know that Dragon Ball isn't from the 60s. Or 70s. It's from the 80s (and later 90s), but has music that evokes the stylings and instruments of those prior decades. This is part of what makes it magical and timeless.
Whoa now, I never said that Dragon Ball was from the 60's or 90's! I was just tossing those out as examples while trying to understand your perspective! And wait...you just acknowledged that it was from the 80's-90's, but has music that "evokes the stylings and instruments" of the 60's-70's. In other words, it's an 80's-90's show that has 60's-70's music. I think I'm following you so far...

So how is THAT "timeless", while Dragon Ball Kai is a "haphazard mish-mash"? The way I see it...

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dragon Ball Z - Early 90's anime with 60's-70's music.

Dragon Ball Z Kai - Early 90's anime with mid-2010 music.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm not seeing the big difference :eh: . The only difference I see is that the original had music that was older than the animation, while the new one had music that was younger than the animation.
Kataphrut wrote:It's a bit of a Boy Who Cried Wolf situation to me...Basically, the boy shouldn't have cried wolf when the wolves just wanted to Go See Yamcha. If not, they might have gotten some help when the wolves came back to Make the Donuts.
Chuquita wrote:I liken Gokû Black to "guy can't stand his job, so instead of quitting and finding a job he likes, he instead sets fire not only to his workplace so he doesn't have to work there, but tries setting fire to every store in the franchise of that company".

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Re: Are there people that actually hate the Vegeta's Hells Bells music?

Post by Jinzoningen MULE » Fri Dec 30, 2016 10:26 pm

Fionordequester wrote:
VegettoEX wrote: I'm not quite sure that you actually read what I wrote. You and I both know that Dragon Ball isn't from the 60s. Or 70s. It's from the 80s (and later 90s), but has music that evokes the stylings and instruments of those prior decades. This is part of what makes it magical and timeless.
Whoa now, I never said that Dragon Ball was from the 60's or 90's! I was just tossing those out as examples while trying to understand your perspective! And wait...you just acknowledged that it was from the 80's-90's, but has music that "evokes the stylings and instruments" of the 60's-70's. In other words, it's an 80's-90's show that has 60's-70's music. I think I'm following you so far...

So how is THAT "timeless", while Dragon Ball Kai is a "haphazard mish-mash"? The way I see it...

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dragon Ball Z - Early 90's anime with 60's-70's music.

Dragon Ball Z Kai - Early 90's anime with mid-2010 music.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm not seeing the big difference :eh: . The only difference I see is that the original had music that was older than the animation, while the new one had music that was younger than the animation.
Come on, let's not pretend that Dragon Ball Kai was its own thing. It's a cut down version of a 90's cartoon that Toei haphazardly rescored, poorly remastered, and recorded a worse version of the dialogue all to make it seem like a new show. Naturally, they failed.

I don't hate Kai or anything, it's nice to have, but it is not a competent product.

Footnote: I've never heard music from the 60-70's that sounds like Dragon Ball, but I could be mistaken.
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Re: Are there people that actually hate the Vegeta's Hells Bells music?

Post by Fionordequester » Fri Dec 30, 2016 11:15 pm

Jinzoningen MULE wrote: Come on, let's not pretend that Dragon Ball Kai was its own thing. It's a cut down version of a 90's cartoon that Toei haphazardly rescored, poorly remastered, and recorded a worse version of the dialogue all to make it seem like a new show. Naturally, they failed.

I don't hate Kai or anything, it's nice to have, but it is not a competent product.

Footnote: I've never heard music from the 60-70's that sounds like Dragon Ball, but I could be mistaken.
Well sure, Dragon Ball Kai was poorly put together in a wide variety of ways. But I don't see what that has to do with my point; that I'm not seeing the difference between a 90's anime with 60's-70's music vs. a 90's anime with mid-2010 music.
Kataphrut wrote:It's a bit of a Boy Who Cried Wolf situation to me...Basically, the boy shouldn't have cried wolf when the wolves just wanted to Go See Yamcha. If not, they might have gotten some help when the wolves came back to Make the Donuts.
Chuquita wrote:I liken Gokû Black to "guy can't stand his job, so instead of quitting and finding a job he likes, he instead sets fire not only to his workplace so he doesn't have to work there, but tries setting fire to every store in the franchise of that company".

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