What would Norihito Sumitomo’s weakest tracks be?

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What would Norihito Sumitomo’s weakest tracks be?

Post by GhostEmperorX » Sat May 30, 2020 1:11 am

The most popular of those that you consider lacking, as well as the not-so-popular ones.
After finally understanding how the original DB score is the standard one, I’d like to see why many don’t approve of Sumitomo and his material for the more recent DB productions. And how it compares.

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Re: What would Norihito Sumitomo’s weakest tracks be?

Post by TheGreatness25 » Fri Jun 12, 2020 10:24 am

I don't know about his weakest tracks, but I found his music in Kai to be a bit too synthy. It kind of reminded me of the Faulconer score in the way that it sounded and was laid out. Like, I wouldn't be surprised to hear those tracks in the original dub. I felt like "Strong Rival" played three times per episode lol And I liked it, but in watching Kai, that theme is all over!

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Re: What would Norihito Sumitomo’s weakest tracks be?

Post by Dbzfan94 » Mon Jun 22, 2020 8:37 pm

The Pilaf theme in Super

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Re: What would Norihito Sumitomo’s weakest tracks be?

Post by GhostEmperorX » Thu Jun 25, 2020 4:26 pm

TheGreatness25 wrote: Fri Jun 12, 2020 10:24 am I don't know about his weakest tracks, but I found his music in Kai to be a bit too synthy. It kind of reminded me of the Faulconer score in the way that it sounded and was laid out. Like, I wouldn't be surprised to hear those tracks in the original dub. I felt like "Strong Rival" played three times per episode lol And I liked it, but in watching Kai, that theme is all over!
So TFC ultimately wasn’t that good in terms of music?

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Re: What would Norihito Sumitomo’s weakest tracks be?

Post by TheGreatness25 » Sun Jun 28, 2020 1:33 pm

GhostEmperorX wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2020 4:26 pm
So TFC ultimately wasn’t that good in terms of music?
Eh. You can listen to it on YouTube, I believe -- they had the album up. It's not that it was terrible, it just didn't live up to the Yamamoto nor Kikuchi scores in my opinion. It sounded much cheaper. Actually, I felt like aside from the earlier Great Saiyaman stuff, it really resembled Super's score (if I'm not mistaken, they did actually share music). But the character themes in particular were very, very synthy. And yeah, I wasn't lying when I said that "Strong Rival" was sprinkled all over it.

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Re: What would Norihito Sumitomo’s weakest tracks be?

Post by Trouser » Mon Jun 29, 2020 6:43 am

I only like "Super Saiyan Three", "Impatience", "No More" and "Trapped Between Past and Present" from Kai. The rest is pretty meh, same with Super until Future Trunks Arc came in. Battle of Gods and Resurrection of F' were pretty bland too with few exceptions like "Earth's End" and "Peacful Earth". :)
His best work is, imo, Broly's soundtrack. But overall I'm not very fond of his work on Dragon Ball. Kikuchi is still the best.

But if I had to choose the WORST one there is then it's "Omen of Victory" from Super.
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Re: What would Norihito Sumitomo’s weakest tracks be?

Post by MCDaveG » Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:47 am

For me, Sumitomo is weak overall. Only themes I remember from him is Goku Black theme and when he makes orchestrated version of opening themes, that have really distinct and rich melodies...
Compared to Kikuchi - he had a rich and really distinct sound, you always recognize his signature.
Akihito Tokunaga - really synth heavy music with lot of eastern influences. Bland at first glance, but I do reconize lot of his themes, years after I saw DBGT.
Yamamoto the black sheep - he was great at layering the orchestra and arrangement and overall, his sound was rich and pretty distinct... altough the music was plagiarized.

I was never fan of Sumitomo, don't know why, but since Battle of Gods, his music sounds bland, not fitting the series.
He uses lot of synths that I would expect in EDM rather than in soundtrack with silly melodies.
And I think that if he will opt for orchestral sound rather than electronic, his compositions would not sound that over the top silly.
I have feeling that I am watching a children's toy, snack or whatever commercial rather than martial arts show.
His soundtrack for Kai Final Chapters, coming right after Yamamoto is outright atrocious and the worst work of music, I have heard in Dragon Ball on par with Plan To Eradicate the Saiyans.

Why they hired Sumitomo in the first place? For example new works of Saint Seyia no longer use Seiji Yokoyama, who sadly passed away three years ago even in new works before, don't know why and they hired Toshihiko Sahashi (Full Metal Panic, Gundam Seed).
Altough, he sounds really different and it was difficult to get acustomed to it, I think he fits the show and does it justice.

For brief examples, compare this to Sumitomo, that's completely different sound and synth use and I dare say level:

Gundam Seed:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eITkIi1dces
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCB0UPhD-Fw

Saint Seiya Soul Of Gold:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGDeTejxUx8&t=108s

Saint Seiya Santia Sho:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZrAx_umcqc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IgMgTucszvY

His Saint Seiya work is really close to original and that is something I would have expected from anyone coming to compose for Dragon Ball.

But frankly as a veteran fan since 90's, Sumitomo's work for me is kinda crap, because there is really nothing nostalgic about it as a fan of the original work.
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Re: What would Norihito Sumitomo’s weakest tracks be?

Post by GhostEmperorX » Wed Jul 08, 2020 5:44 pm

MCDaveG wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:47 am Why they hired Sumitomo in the first place?


Yasuharu Takanashi would probably have been a much better fit than him since it’s a martial arts show we’re talking about.
But it’s Toei, for every step forward they take, it’s two or three steps backwards.
For example new works of Saint Seyia no longer use Seiji Yokoyama, who sadly passed away three years ago even in new works before, don't know why and they hired Toshihiko Sahashi (Full Metal Panic, Gundam Seed).
Altough, he sounds really different and it was difficult to get acustomed to it, I think he fits the show and does it justice.

For brief examples, compare this to Sumitomo, that's completely different sound and synth use and I dare say level:

Gundam Seed:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eITkIi1dces
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCB0UPhD-Fw

Saint Seiya Soul Of Gold:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGDeTejxUx8&t=108s

Saint Seiya Santia Sho:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZrAx_umcqc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IgMgTucszvY

His Saint Seiya work is really close to original and that is something I would have expected from anyone coming to compose for Dragon Ball.

But frankly as a veteran fan since 90's, Sumitomo's work for me is kinda crap, because there is really nothing nostalgic about it as a fan of the original work.
Also the Big O and a few Sentai shows BTW. Sahashi is clearly very capable in his work.

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Re: What would Norihito Sumitomo’s weakest tracks be?

Post by MCDaveG » Sun Jul 12, 2020 8:42 pm

GhostEmperorX wrote: Wed Jul 08, 2020 5:44 pm
MCDaveG wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:47 am Why they hired Sumitomo in the first place?


Yasuharu Takanashi would probably have been a much better fit than him since it’s a martial arts show we’re talking about.
But it’s Toei, for every step forward they take, it’s two or three steps backwards.
But really, when even video games and side OAVs like Plan to Eradicate the Super Saiyans from Raging Blast 2 or the recent promo anime Super DB Heroes have better music than the major series...

I don't even like the Broly soundtrack... the music is such a mess with no major themes to catch and remember later...
I just remember the man shouting Buroriiii and Gojiiiitaaa!

With Shunsuke Kikuchi, that people criticize for sounding old, I do remember battle themes like the one from Z Broly movie which is actually adapted theme made for Saiyans in the the beginning of Z... And the version with the gong in Movie 12 is one that I like the most when Goku turns to SSJ3...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FaJlL8uYCSw

or the Dragon Balls theme played on bells, The Shenron theme from third movie and the new one being an adaptation of the Dragon Balls theme in movies 12 and 13...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bjcLFflL_k
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAUE9C3Lolc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHkBo_3zahM

and I can go on.
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Re: What would Norihito Sumitomo’s weakest tracks be?

Post by GhostEmperorX » Mon Jul 13, 2020 10:42 pm

MCDaveG wrote: Sun Jul 12, 2020 8:42 pm But really, when even video games and side OAVs like Plan to Eradicate the Super Saiyans from Raging Blast 2 or the recent promo anime Super DB Heroes have better music than the major series...
Yeah, that has always been rather strange. Don’t know what kind of directors they place in each one. Inconsistent.
With Shunsuke Kikuchi, that people criticize for sounding old, I do remember battle themes like the one from Z Broly movie which is actually adapted theme made for Saiyans in the the beginning of Z... And the version with the gong in Movie 12 is one that I like the most when Goku turns to SSJ3...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FaJlL8uYCSw

or the Dragon Balls theme played on bells, The Shenron theme from third movie and the new one being an adaptation of the Dragon Balls theme in movies 12 and 13...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bjcLFflL_k
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAUE9C3Lolc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHkBo_3zahM

and I can go on.
You’re forgetting the most consistent theme he made, Piccolo’s theme.

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Re: What would Norihito Sumitomo’s weakest tracks be?

Post by MCDaveG » Tue Jul 14, 2020 3:01 am

GhostEmperorX wrote: Mon Jul 13, 2020 10:42 pm You’re forgetting the most consistent theme he made, Piccolo’s theme.
I have just listed few of my favorites, but yeah, Piccolo's theme plays trough the whole series as well, like many other motifs...
I think people do not appreciate Shunsuke Kikuchi for being classic trained composer, who did movie-like scores for the series.
Altough I am not huge fan of the Movie 13 (The Dragon Fist one), but man, his music there is probably the pinnacle of what he did in the series and as the main series used score from the movies after they were released, it is a really shame that the series didn't continue more to use the Movie 12 and 13 score more or into GT.

I like the GT score and overall aesthetic, it is interesting and part of my childhood, but Kikuchi to me is like John Williams and Star Wars.
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Re: What would Norihito Sumitomo’s weakest tracks be?

Post by Rafa Fast » Tue Sep 15, 2020 3:00 pm

Wow...this topic is really a lot specific for me, well...

I'm really not sure here, but there is a plenty of Sumitomo musics that I personally doesn't like, with "The Terror Begins" From Kai 2014 being my major example, despite from the fact that the track itself being too bland and non-original, it's too unecessarily overused, it's not like "Garlic's Jr Castle" from Kikuchi being overused a lot through Z, that track had a purpose, it was always used for tension moments of "What's gonna happen??". But this doesn't happen with "The Terror Begins" from Sumitomo, this piece is literally used for any random scene through Kai and Super, without any purpose! It's used for Bulma in her Lab, Majin Buu Attacking the City? Gyniu Returning in Tagoma's Body?? Narirama Showing his Powers????? WTF??? What's that track meant for??? There is no purpose like some other tracks, as "Unsettled City" purpose always being related to standoff tension scenes, or "Impatience" purpose being for when a Character is showing a menace, this makes The Terror Begins really annoying.
Other Track that I definitely can't take is "Under The Blue Sky", when I think about Super's Slice of Life moments, this track is the first thing that comes to my mind, but it's too bland, sounds like anything else except for Dragon Ball, and that's the problem that I'm gonna talk about.

As most Sumitomo's RoF and BoG movies ost aren't very noticiable for people, I think the Movies OSTs are his hit point, he can make separate tracks having a similar tone and ambient, and the creation of motifs helps too. Specially now because of Broly's OST, everyone needs to admit that his music evolved in DBS Broly.
Now about his anime ost...eeg...that's a problem for me, since there's no existing motif in the anime osts except for the Opening theme arrangements, I'm not very expert or interested in it, gonna admit that his Kai and Super (Beerus-Universe 6 Arc) score is really too synth, too much random melodies with a same ambientation or instrumentation, them all look the same with 20% of change (hope someone is understading what I'm saying), fortunately his music gets some creativity in Black Arc, with "Heroic Battle" finally being the first memorable action theme after "The Terror of Freeza's Army", with some good non-action ones too as "Zamasu's Overwhelming Power" (which is my personal favorite from this arc), but I think the ToP Arc score was Sumitomo's definitive evolution on music, most of the pieces in this arc are know by people, differently from before that only 3 or 5 themes were memorable, and was in this arc that certain tracks started to be prominent in a creative form, differently from something like the uses of "Crushing Defeat" (which was just a novice attempt of turning a track into a frequent motif), so good he started to use more creativity in his musics, because before, it sounded like anything else, except Dragon Ball.
So, these are my thoughts, sorry for writing so long, I just can't decide it :|
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Re: What would Norihito Sumitomo’s weakest tracks be?

Post by Rafa Fast » Tue Sep 15, 2020 3:08 pm

Dbzfan94 wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 8:37 pm The Pilaf theme in Super
Even if the Theme fits Pilaf's gang, Sumitomo could have done much better, adding more notes and making it less noisy.
His Pilaf Gang motif from BoG and RoF is way better.
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Re: What would Norihito Sumitomo’s weakest tracks be?

Post by Rafa Fast » Tue Sep 15, 2020 3:18 pm

Trouser wrote: Mon Jun 29, 2020 6:43 am But if I had to choose the WORST one there is then it's "Omen of Victory" from Super.
Dawg! Thanks for remembering me! I forgot that "Turning the Tables" is "Omen of Victory" with a slightly instrumentation and speed change! Thanks dude, I wouldn't say that it's the worst one, but that is no doubt Super's Goku Theme (at least I think the motif is related to his character), but this one isn't really that good, too noisy in the synths, exactly like The "Pilaf's Gang Theme".
"Goku's Theme" from Kai 2014 is better.
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Re: What would Norihito Sumitomo’s weakest tracks be?

Post by Rafa Fast » Tue Sep 15, 2020 3:21 pm

MCDaveG wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:47 am Only themes I remember from him is Goku Black theme and when he makes orchestrated version of opening themes, that have really distinct and rich melodies...
Wait?? Black have a theme????
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Re: What would Norihito Sumitomo’s weakest tracks be?

Post by Rafa Fast » Tue Sep 15, 2020 3:41 pm

MCDaveG wrote: Sun Jul 12, 2020 8:42 pm the recent promo anime Super DB Heroes have better music than the major series...

I Think with "major series" you meant not to count the majority of TOP score, if that's the case, I agree with you.
I don't even like the Broly soundtrack... the music is such a mess with no major themes to catch and remember later...
I completely strongly disagree with you, Broly and Freeza's themes are very memorable for most of the people, Kakaroto vs Broly and Gogeta vs Broly are the lead tracks in the movie and always gets the hype (most because of the lyrics), Bardock Falls is also a unforgivable masterpiece.
With Shunsuke Kikuchi, that people criticize for sounding old, I do remember battle themes like the one from Z Broly movie which is actually adapted theme made for Saiyans in the the beginning of Z...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FaJlL8uYCSw
Are you talking about The Tragic Battle (M1525)?
If that's the case, nope, that's not a rendition of Super Saiyans theme, that's Goku's theme, mixed with variants of Broly's theme as a secondary side motif.
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Re: What would Norihito Sumitomo’s weakest tracks be?

Post by Dbzfan94 » Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:11 am

Rafa Fast wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 3:21 pm
MCDaveG wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:47 am Only themes I remember from him is Goku Black theme and when he makes orchestrated version of opening themes, that have really distinct and rich melodies...
Wait?? Black have a theme????
I dont know if you're being sarcastic or not, but

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7jTVsa ... omastoideo

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Re: What would Norihito Sumitomo’s weakest tracks be?

Post by Rafa Fast » Wed Sep 16, 2020 3:44 pm

Dbzfan94 wrote: Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:11 am
Rafa Fast wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 3:21 pm
MCDaveG wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:47 am Only themes I remember from him is Goku Black theme and when he makes orchestrated version of opening themes, that have really distinct and rich melodies...
Wait?? Black have a theme????
I dont know if you're being sarcastic or not, but

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7jTVsa ... omastoideo
Oh, that is not Black's theme, as most of the uses of this track in the series are associated to his character, this motif just appears in one track and that's it, the track's name isn't even "Goku Black's Theme" I think, it was "Birth of Zamasu Gattai" If I'm not wrong, if I have a good memory, the only motif in Super's ost (except for the Opening themes arrangements) is Goku's theme (at least I associate the motif to Goku), a motif that plays in "Turning The Tables" and "Omen of Victory"
I simply wouldn't want to imagine my life without Dragon Ball, thank you Akira Toriyama (1955-2024), you are now immortal.

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