For the Kikuchi's OST lovers - Can we all Assume that M249 and M250 are the same track?

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For the Kikuchi's OST lovers - Can we all Assume that M249 and M250 are the same track?

Post by Rafa Fast » Fri Sep 18, 2020 4:25 am

Haiayaaaa again, sorry for bother, but this case is something about the Kikuchi score that my mind always gets confused when I'm about to think in a conclusion for it.
"Departing The Island" (M249) And "Kame Sennin Speaks of Friends° (M250) are the same track, yes or no? Please tell me your thoughts
In my personal opinion, yes they are, here are my reasons:
  • Their endings are exactly the same for my ears, the last half of both tracks are identical for me, without a single difference.
  • Both tracks have the same instruments, same beats, ambientation and tones imo, I hear no difference except for both tracks having a different melody in their first halfs.
  • BGM M250 actually plays right after the first half of M249 ends in the Movie, the last half of M249 simply is not used and it just cuts immediately to the start of M250 when the "Afternoon-Day" scene cut happens, and I do believe that this shot is one of the reasons for why some people believe they are separate tracks.
  • Even if they are considered as two separate tracks, as I said before, both still sound identical, let's think, wouldn't M250 rather be "M249-2/M249B"?
.
Well, that's it, want to know what you guys think, I want to finish the BGM project in my channel (I stopped 5 months ago I guess?) and I was planning on returning for it with a fan mix of these two tracks (just if Zestanor allows me obviously)

Also a important note, I think that someone can say that I'm being rude or something like that. No, I don't want to change what people think about anything, I just curious to know what you guys think about, I don't want to make Zestanor pissed or make him change his mind about the two tracks (I already disturbed him in the past and I don't ever want to do it again), he was responsible for ripping and giving these number codes for the tracks, so he can consider them as two separate tracks as he wants ;^
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Re: For the Kikuchi's OST lovers - Can we all Assume that M249 and M250 are the same track?

Post by Zestanor » Fri Sep 18, 2020 11:55 am

I already disturbed him in the past and I don't ever want to do it again
This isn't ringing a bell for me, so consider whatever happened water under the bridge. Feel free to ask about any part of the rips I made.

I can't remember what my thought process was for those two rips, other than I just copied the enumeration from kenisu's listing. For the downloads available on Google Drive (see my signature), which I consider the more final version of my project as opposed to my Youtube uploads, I removed the Mxxx numbers because they were only speculative. But I'm shifting the blame to kenisu on this one for separating them.

I think you are correct that these are the same track... On my rips, the last 17 seconds are identical. And they aren't alternate performances; they're clearly the very same performances.

Looking through kenisu's listings for the show, it looks "Departing the Island" plays during episode 15 of Z, and "Kame Sennin speaks of friends" plays once in Z episode 40. My rip of "Departing the Island" seems to take the fairly clean instance from Z 15 and add in the first half of the whole track from the film 5.1 audio. My rip of "Kame Sennin etc" seems to be entirely from the film's audio. I just checked Z 40 and it looks like it's got a very clean segment, so I might just handle this today.

There really isn't anything left to finish in the unreleased BGM project. The Z tracks have long been available via Laserdisc rips, and the DB tracks are finished because of my rips. I'm not going to upload released tracks on my channel, but if you wanted to make a contribution, you could combine the released and unreleased tracks into compilations, as long as you gave me credit for the unreleased parts.

edit: I ripped DBOX Z 1 disc 6 to check episode 40 but it turns out, for some reason, the dub audio of episodes around then is mastered weirdly, so that the dialogue bleeds into the back left and back right channels, which is usually just music and effects. Which means that take is unusable. So my work is even easier than I thought: I just need to concatenate the two tracks I did years ago into one.

Here's
the new version! I'll do it on Youtube at some point.

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Re: For the Kikuchi's OST lovers - Can we all Assume that M249 and M250 are the same track?

Post by kenisu3000 » Fri Sep 18, 2020 7:39 pm

They could be. You have to remember, I've always considered my documentations guesswork that could change the moment we got new official information, certainly nowhere near the gospel truth until such info might surface. Sometimes my guesswork lost its logic and went a little off the rails while documenting these scores, especially since I had only so much information on possible unused cues based on the number of cues between the M-numbers we do officially have, longer silent spots than usual (in movies where, unlike the Z films, silence is a lot less common, so it tends to be conspicuous when it does occur for more than 30 seconds, possibly pointing to an unused cue), and what material might appear in what forms in TV episodes. And that's not even counting alternates.

In a similar vein, from the same movie we have "Pansy In The Forest" and "Ogre Oolong", which have always bothered me as to whether or not they're two separate cues or one. The former cue gets used twice in the TV series (once in DB episode 137, as a bee disturbs Goku's meditation; and again in Z episode 38, as the doctor removes Kuririn's head bandages), but neither instance contain the stinger of Oolong's appearance from the movie. Now, obviously, the stinger wouldn't fit those scenes, but I wanted to save closer examination for later to see if the former cue's fade-out lasted longer in the TV series' tracking. If it did, it would help toward my theory of the two cues being indeed two -- and even that's still speculation.

But why would Kikuchi compose the two parts separately, when there's a distinct build-up toward the stinger? That's where my logic doesn't seem to fit, and yet it's not unheard of for composers to write like this.

So yeah, your guess is as good as mine, possibly better.
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Re: For the Kikuchi's OST lovers - Can we all Assume that M249 and M250 are the same track?

Post by Rafa Fast » Tue Oct 13, 2020 4:57 am

You two here at the same time?? Dawg I feel like I'm between two gods :o !
Btw, Really good to see you guys here, Gonna try to answer both in one post.
Zestanor wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 11:55 am
For the downloads available on Google Drive (see my signature), which I consider the more final version of my project as opposed to my Youtube uploads, I removed the Mxxx numbers because they were only speculative. But I'm shifting the blame to kenisu on this one for separating them.
They indeed are, I personally think it was a good choice dropping the speculative number listing, they are very confuse and always cause me headache :crazy:
I'm not going to upload released tracks on my channel, but if you wanted to make a contribution, you could combine the released and unreleased tracks into compilations, as long as you gave me credit for the unreleased parts.
Nah, I'm fine, I've added your Unreleased tracks to my Dragon Ball TV & Movies scores playlists (alongside with my uploads of the released ones) to make it look more complete, I prefer the people going to the playlists to listen to my released tracks uploads and then to your unreleased tracks on your channel, rather than reuploading them in a new format in my channel, but I gonna credit you in every video where I use a ripped track from you :wink:
edit: I ripped DBOX Z 1 disc 6 to check episode 40 but it turns out, for some reason, the dub audio of episodes around then is mastered weirdly, so that the dialogue bleeds into the back left and back right channels, which is usually just music and effects. Which means that take is unusable. So my work is even easier than I thought: I just need to concatenate the two tracks I did years ago into one.

Here's
the new version! I'll do it on Youtube at some point.
Wow, interesting, But, don't get me wrong, I personally think your edit sounds pretty off in some parts, and I didn't remember that the audio was so low, well, I've tried on doing a rough draft edit myself, and the result was this (If you didn't like it so please tell me and I deleted the video).
kenisu3000 wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 7:39 pm
They could be. You have to remember, I've always considered my documentations guesswork that could change the moment we got new official information, certainly nowhere near the gospel truth until such info might surface. Sometimes my guesswork lost its logic and went a little off the rails while documenting these scores, especially since I had only so much information on possible unused cues based on the number of cues between the M-numbers we do officially have, longer silent spots than usual (in movies where, unlike the Z films, silence is a lot less common, so it tends to be conspicuous when it does occur for more than 30 seconds, possibly pointing to an unused cue), and what material might appear in what forms in TV episodes. And that's not even counting alternates.
Dawg I completely forgot about that sorry, my tiny brain for some reason always thought your work was made with justification instead of speculation, forgive me for that :|
In a similar vein, from the same movie we have "Pansy In The Forest" and "Ogre Oolong", which have always bothered me as to whether or not they're two separate cues or one. The former cue gets used twice in the TV series (once in DB episode 137, as a bee disturbs Goku's meditation; and again in Z episode 38, as the doctor removes Kuririn's head bandages), but neither instance contain the stinger of Oolong's appearance from the movie. Now, obviously, the stinger wouldn't fit those scenes, but I wanted to save closer examination for later to see if the former cue's fade-out lasted longer in the TV series' tracking. If it did, it would help toward my theory of the two cues being indeed two -- and even that's still speculation.

These two tracks always where a headache for me, they aren't just impossible for me to speculate if they are just one or two, but also literally nobody knows if they are separate or not! :crazy:
There's also a very bizarre case (for me) with "Mai's News of the Valley" (G12), and I say it's bizarre because that's a released track, I don't remember if the full track was used once or more times in Z or DB, But I remember very well of the first 27 seconds (the calm part of the track) always being used separately from the last notes (the intense part in the ending) a couple of times, and for some reason, all the uses of the calm sequence of this track always ends with a extended fade-out that is completely inexistent in the released version (this extended ending is also impossible to replicate by editing the last notes of the calm part with the released version imo), so it seems that the main sequence and the last notes of G12 are actually completely distinct tracks in the actual TV Series, and for some reason they were mixed up in the CD release, overshadowing completely the last notes of the calm part of G12, this probably have something to do with most of the tracks in the CD release being very mixed, ignoring pause times between each other. (That's just a speculation too)

Well, gentlemen, now I'm going to sleep, can't wait for tomorrow, good night :wave:
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Re: For the Kikuchi's OST lovers - Can we all Assume that M249 and M250 are the same track?

Post by tronk21 » Tue Oct 13, 2020 7:42 am

I was always of the opinion that "Departing the Island" and "Kame Sennin speaks of friends" are one and the same cue. The reason being:
Rafa Fast wrote:
  • BGM M250 actually plays right after the first half of M249 ends in the Movie, the last half of M249 simply is not used and it just cuts immediately to the start of M250 when the "Afternoon-Day" scene cut happens, and I do believe that this shot is one of the reasons for why some people believe they are separate tracks.
I'm puzzled as to why the cue's usage in the scene in DBZ episode 15 caused fans to believe that these are two separate tracks. For me, it was just the opposite: the scene solidified my speculation of this being one, singular track. The first half of the "Departing the Island" portion of the cue is first being played and the cue skips to the "Kame Sennin speaks of friends" part, right? It is very often done in Dragon Ball that some part of a cue is cut out from its TV presentation. And in the show there are very few instances when one cue is being played and it cuts immediately to another one. So for me it's pretty obvious that this is one cue, not much room for speculation here.

As others present their attempts of ripping this cue, let me present my own:

http://matela.stronazen.pl/wp-content/u ... 2/M249.mp3

EDIT: I used parts of TheZestanor's previous version of both portions of this cue. And added in parts from the German dub, which has a lot less dialogue in some channels of the music than the American dub does despite the German audio being in worse sound quality and having the score slightly sped-up and consequently higher in pitch.
Rafa Fast wrote: There's also a very bizarre case (for me) with "Mai's News of the Valley" (G12), and I say it's bizarre because that's a released track, I don't remember if the full track was used once or more times in Z or DB, But I remember very well of the first 27 seconds (the calm part of the track) always being used separately from the last notes (the intense part in the ending) a couple of times, and for some reason, all the uses of the calm sequence of this track always ends with a extended fade-out that is completely inexistent in the released version (this extended ending is also impossible to replicate by editing the last notes of the calm part with the released version imo), so it seems that the main sequence and the last notes of G12 are actually completely distinct tracks in the actual TV Series, and for some reason they were mixed up in the CD release, overshadowing completely the last notes of the calm part of G12, this probably have something to do with most of the tracks in the CD release being very mixed, ignoring pause times between each other. (That's just a speculation too)
In the same vein, I don't think there can be much speculation here, it's quite obvious these are separate cues. In every instance of G12, and there are a lot of those, the cue is being played without the "intense part". And the latter is clearly an F (as in F48 for example) and was also always used separately from G12. The only reason they're together in the "Music Collection" album is because in that albums lots of cues cross-fade into each other.

Here's my attempt to make a "proper" version of G12 by taking a few last miliseconds of the track from Dragon Box audio:

http://matela.stronazen.pl/wp-content/u ... 12-A.mp3
kenisu3000 wrote: In a similar vein, from the same movie we have "Pansy In The Forest" and "Ogre Oolong", which have always bothered me as to whether or not they're two separate cues or one. The former cue gets used twice in the TV series (once in DB episode 137, as a bee disturbs Goku's meditation; and again in Z episode 38, as the doctor removes Kuririn's head bandages), but neither instance contain the stinger of Oolong's appearance from the movie. Now, obviously, the stinger wouldn't fit those scenes, but I wanted to save closer examination for later to see if the former cue's fade-out lasted longer in the TV series' tracking. If it did, it would help toward my theory of the two cues being indeed two -- and even that's still speculation.

But why would Kikuchi compose the two parts separately, when there's a distinct build-up toward the stinger? That's where my logic doesn't seem to fit, and yet it's not unheard of for composers to write like this.
Now this case is as far from being obvious as possible. There's also the possibility you mentioned on your site that sound editor removed the stinger at the end of this possibly singular cue for the usage in the scenes of the series. It could also be the case that despite the cue's fade-out seemigly lasting longer in the show than in the movie, the longer fade-out was always there in the film in the background of the cue and cannot be heard because of the loudness of the stinger on top of the fade-out. So what is presented in the series could be the part of the singlar cue. However, it may as well be two different tracks with the latter one being inserted at the end of the former in the movie thus making the fade-out of the first one unaudible. Or the fade-out just isn't there as it was cut out from the film and at the end of this possible suite of two tracks only the stinger cue plays. So in this case it completely cannot be determined if this is one cue or two. I'm slightly more inclined towards it being one cue because of the build-up toward the stinger you mentioned. For me, it just seems more cinematic for it to be a singluar cue. But this is just how it feels to me, there's no rational argument that I can present.

All this speculation would end if the entirety of Kikuchi's music for both series was released. And yet it still continues to be unreleased for some reason. But I haven't lost my hope yet!

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Re: For the Kikuchi's OST lovers - Can we all Assume that M249 and M250 are the same track?

Post by Rafa Fast » Tue Oct 13, 2020 6:14 pm

Another god has appeared!
tronk21 wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 7:42 am
I'm puzzled as to why the cue's usage in the scene in DBZ episode 15 caused fans to believe that these are two separate tracks. For me, it was just the opposite: the scene solidified my speculation of this being one, singular track. The first half of the "Departing the Island" portion of the cue is first being played and the cue skips to the "Kame Sennin speaks of friends" part, right? It is very often done in Dragon Ball that some part of a cue is cut out from its TV presentation. And in the show there are very few instances when one cue is being played and it cuts immediately to another one. So for me it's pretty obvious that this is one cue, not much room for speculation here.

As others present their attempts of ripping this cue, let me present my own:

http://matela.stronazen.pl/wp-content/u ... 2/M249.mp3

EDIT: I used parts of TheZestanor's previous version of both portions of this cue. And added in parts from the German dub, which has a lot less dialogue in some channels of the music than the American dub does despite the German audio being in worse sound quality and having the score slightly sped-up and consequently higher in pitch.
Good! But lol, I forgot that the german dub have this weird audio pitch for some reason, I think the correct audio should sound something like this?
In the same vein, I don't think there can be much speculation here, it's quite obvious these are separate cues. In every instance of G12, and there are a lot of those, the cue is being played without the "intense part". And the latter is clearly an F (as in F48 for example) and was also always used separately from G12. The only reason they're together in the "Music Collection" album is because in that albums lots of cues cross-fade into each other.

Here's my attempt to make a "proper" version of G12 by taking a few last miliseconds of the track from Dragon Box audio:

http://matela.stronazen.pl/wp-content/u ... 12-A.mp3
Dawg it's sounds lit! I really would like to hear all the released tracks without the "cross-fade mix" from the CD release, as you did with G12, but I believe you don't have patience to do it with all of them right?

Also, extra information, the 2007 Special "Nippon Ijin Taisho" used some Original DB tracks, the track The Training Begins (H19) is used every time where the characters enters in the tournament arena, but in The last use of this track in the special is when Prince Kotaku prepares to fight Benkei, and in that scene, H19 ends without the last notes containing the Makafushigi Adventure variant, instead, it ends with an extended violin fade-out that doesn't exists in the original released track, in the released track, the fade-out lasts for just 2 seconds, while in the special it lasts for 5 seconds, and it doesn't sound like they edited the track by making a loop or slowing down that fragment, at least not for me. :?

If you haven't seen it, check it for yourself: https://youtu.be/vteRnB6O9U8 (at 7:07)
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Re: For the Kikuchi's OST lovers - Can we all Assume that M249 and M250 are the same track?

Post by tronk21 » Tue Oct 13, 2020 6:59 pm

Rafa Fast wrote: Good! But lol, I forgot that the german dub have this weird audio pitch for some reason, I think the correct audio should sound something like this?
Great job! I like that the whole track is in the same volume throughout although the sound effects are more noticeable. But overally I like your version better than mine.
Rafa Fast wrote: Dawg it's sounds lit! I really would like to hear all the released tracks without the "cross-fade mix" from the CD release, as you did with G12, but I believe you don't have patience to do it with all of them right?
Thanks. The only other I've done in that manner is in fact H19:

http://matela.stronazen.pl/wp-content/u ... -H19-A.mp3

And yes. I don't have the patience to do anything DB-related right now. I think I need a break from the franchise. Although guys like you just might reignite my passion for it.
Rafa Fast wrote: and in that scene, H19 ends without the last notes containing the Makafushigi Adventure variant, instead, it ends with an extended violin fade-out that doesn't exists in the original released track, in the released track, the fade-out lasts for just 2 seconds, while in the special it lasts for 5 seconds, and it doesn't sound like they edited the track by making a loop or slowing down that fragment, at least not for me. :?
Fascinating! I really don't know what to make of it. I really can't even figure out how is this possible. And I'm also glad that you pointed out the fact that the last notes of H19 are partially the same notes as in Makafushigi Adventure. They're not exactly the same notes in the exact same order so I didn't even notice that fact. Now that you mentioned it I can see how that cue ending is a subtle variation on the main theme. Thanks!

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Re: For the Kikuchi's OST lovers - Can we all Assume that M249 and M250 are the same track?

Post by Rafa Fast » Wed Oct 14, 2020 7:11 pm

tronk21 wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 6:59 pm
Great job! I like that the whole track is in the same volume throughout although the sound effects are more noticeable. But overally I like your version better than mine.
Thanks, I did that with your rip of M441-1 too as well :)
Thanks. The only other I've done in that manner is in fact H19:

http://matela.stronazen.pl/wp-content/u ... -H19-A.mp3

And yes. I don't have the patience to do anything DB-related right now. I think I need a break from the franchise. Although guys like you just might reignite my passion for it.
Awesome, gonna reupload H19 with this some day, and give you the credits as well. Also, no problem dude, I personally would love to get a full version of The Kuma Mercenary (I20) without the terrible album cross fade mix, because that's my favorite track from the A-J BGM set of DB, but no need to do it if you don't want, I would really like to do it since I've learned how to rip music recently, the problem is that I can just isolate music if the audio quality is a modern good stereo, and DB's audio is old, so definitely my rips of Unreleased DB BGMs would have a terrible sound quality that wouldn't be whorthy to be listened, also, not counting that my rips are something very novice (in fact I can't even remove dialogue or sfx, I just make voices and sfx sound very low, with the music overshadowing it), the worse is that I'm pretty poor, so I can't buy any DVD with a good audio quality as you guys do with those "Dragon boxes" and parallels :?
Fascinating! I really don't know what to make of it. I really can't even figure out how is this possible. And I'm also glad that you pointed out the fact that the last notes of H19 are partially the same notes as in Makafushigi Adventure. They're not exactly the same notes in the exact same order so I didn't even notice that fact. Now that you mentioned it I can see how that cue ending is a subtle variation on the main theme. Thanks!
IKR? When I first watched that special I really got surprised, that shouldn't even be possible since Toei probably doesn't have in hands the original set for the DB soundtrack, there's also a case in the 2008 The Return of Son Goku and Friends special, M1621 shows up normally when Goten and Trunks are making the fusion, but when they fail the fusion and Trunkten shows up, M1621 starts distorting out until the scene turns silence, that probably was made with a audio editor, but myself couldn't replicate it unfortunately. And the case of H19 still seems to be inexplicable, I will try hard to replicate it in the future. Also, lol, you're welcome! I figured out that Makafushigi Adventure was in H19 a long time ago, A3-A11 aren't the only cues containing the song in the A-J Set, there are other tracks with arrangements of it too, the previously mentioned "I20" also is a variant. (Fun fact: M915 or M916 weren't the last arrangements of the song in the series, M924 was :) )

Also, can you answer this for me please? I forgot to ask it, but are the first 6 seconds of this part of A6? Or it's actually just another "F00" track and A6 actually starts from 0:06? I believe you gonna say the second subject :think:
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Re: For the Kikuchi's OST lovers - Can we all Assume that M249 and M250 are the same track?

Post by tronk21 » Thu Oct 15, 2020 12:56 am

Rafa Fast wrote: Also, can you answer this for me please? I forgot to ask it, but are the first 6 seconds of this part of A6? Or it's actually just another "F00" track and A6 actually starts from 0:06? I believe you gonna say the second subject :think:
Sure. Of course, the first 6 seconds is a separate track, it's F48. Also, I'm glad that you included the last 8 seconds of A6 in there. I noticed that some fans believe that these ending notes of A6 is a distinct F cue, probably because the ending once appeared on its own in episode 1. Of course, that's not true and you correctly observed that the last part of A6 belongs to A6 as it was featured that way in all the other instances in the show. So cut out the first 6 seconds from your video and you'll have the proper presentation of A6.

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Re: For the Kikuchi's OST lovers - Can we all Assume that M249 and M250 are the same track?

Post by Terez » Sat Oct 24, 2020 4:27 am

Rafa Fast wrote:
Wed Oct 14, 2020 7:11 pm
I figured out that Makafushigi Adventure was in H19 a long time ago, A3-A11 aren't the only cues containing the song in the A-J Set, there are other tracks with arrangements of it too, the previously mentioned "I20" also is a variant.
I asked some friends a while back whether they thought I20 was a reference to the OP. I tend to think it is, but it's not anywhere near as explicit as some of the other ones. It's not even as clear as the reference in the middle of I19, which is pretty explicit despite being relatively short. I'm keeping a table of tracks that reference the OP on its wiki page. (I've only gotten as far as the early Red Ribbon episodes; I took a break to work on some other things including finishing up the Sumitomo catalogue.) There's another short but explicit reference in the middle of M16.

H19 is along the same lines as I20 in that it's not as explicit as other references and I would not be surprised if the connection was coincidental because that 1-7-5-1 type of melodic progression is not exactly unusual. Another example: F37 starts out with the same 5-3-5-1 melodic turn as the "Let's try try try" part of the OP. Does that count as a reference? It's a pretty common melodic progression so I am reluctant to say that it is a reference. I was going to ask for opinions on the wobbly ones here after I was finished cataloguing everything.

As for M1, I have thought about combining a few of the tracks that kenisu singled out as being possible pairs; for example, the tracks labeled "M217 (Free-Falling)" and "M218 (Goku In The River)" are almost certainly one track. The melody in the bassoon continues straight from one to the other. It can be hard to tell sometimes, though; Kikuchi wrote a lot of short pieces ending on the dominant or some other resolution-begging tonality, and some of them were actually released as such so we know (?) they're not part of another piece, but they're definitely designed so that they can easily transition into any track in F Minor (the main key of his BGM in this period), or F Major.

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