Episode #0445 (03 June 2018)

We cover anything and everything Dragon Ball in hopes of enlightening... and a little bit of entertaining. Hosted every week by the Kanzenshuu staff and regular special guests from the professional and fandom communities. Your first, best, last, and only Dragon Ball podcast!

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

User avatar
VegettoEX
Kanzenshuu Co-Owner & Administrator
Posts: 16350
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2004 3:10 pm
Location: New Jersey
Contact:

Episode #0445 (03 June 2018)

Post by VegettoEX » Sun Jun 03, 2018 7:20 am

Episode #0445 (download MP3) (rss feed) (subscribe in iTunes) (YouTube version) (SoundCloud version)
91:12; 96 kbps, mono; 62.9 MB

Episode #0445! Mike chats with Rich and Jeff about accusations of Toyotaro tracing artwork in the lead-up to his July 2018 V-Jump cover contribution. To lighten the mood a little bit, Julian and Meri join for a quick breeze through 2015's "Dragon Ball 590 Quiz Book". Play along at home and see how strong you are!

SEGMENTS:
  • 00:12 - Introduction
  • 05:38 - Toyotaro Part 1
  • 35:09 - Toyotaro Part 2
  • 1:05:51 - 590 Quiz Book
  • 1:29:46 - Wrap-up
REFERENCED SITES:
:: [| Mike "VegettoEX" LaBrie |] ::
:: [| Kanzenshuu - Co-Founder/Administrator, Podcast Host, News Manager (note: our "job" titles are arbitrary and meaningless) |] ::
:: [| Website: January 1998 |] :: [| Podcast: November 2005 |] :: [| Fusion: April 2012 |] :: [| Wiki: 20XX |] ::

User avatar
KBABZ
I Live Here
Posts: 3816
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2017 9:38 pm
Location: The tallest tower in West City

Re: Episode #0445 (03 June 2018)

Post by KBABZ » Sun Jun 03, 2018 12:22 pm

The idea of using reference is a very tricky one. All the time at the effects studio I was at (Weta Digital, hoo-rah), we're told to start our animations with reference for it to be as best as it can possibly be. This can be filming ourselves in the reference room, or it can be using existing footage of, say, someone's dance performance. One shot I worked on for a film last year had a piece of artillery firing, and I used reference of the real-life object doing that. Well, isn't that the animation version of tracing? Is copying a gymnast's Olympic performance for an animation considered plagiarizing their hard work? When a manga artist traces over a picture of a gun to make a hyper-realistic depiction, how creatively fulfilling and progressive is that when the gun looks like a CAD drawing and the character holding it appears stylized? Me animating for a film could be excused as it being for a commercial product, but then isn't that what the DBS manga is as well to some extent?

"What is a reference, a homage?"

For me, the answer to that is that it's done with the intent that a viewer/reader pick up on the call-back to another work in a positive manner, respectfully as Jeff says. If something was plagarized, the author's intent is that the audience not find this out as it wasn't done as a respectful nod. Which is what makes the difference between copying a Captain Marvel cover and intentionally mimicking the cover of Action Comics #1.

In the discussion of the artist, I'd say that for really big artists such as Toriyama, there doesn't have to be a name there for you to know who drew it, and by that same measure I'd say that there are a certain number of fans who'll buy something just because their favourite artists did it.

And now here's how I did at the quiz!

[spoiler]
  1. 300 BP: What was the reason Kame-sen'nin gave the Kinto'un to Goku? A reward for helping Turtle get back home.
  2. 300 BP: From whom did Goku receive the Nyoi-bo as a child? Grandpa Gohan!
  3. 500 BP: When Goku first appears in the Tenkaichi Budokai, how old does he say he is? Twelve! He originally thought he was fourteen until Launch taught him how to count (at least in the FUNi dub, my point of familiarity
  4. 300 BP: What did Goku think that a bride was? In the FUNI dub, something you eat!
  5. 500 BP (I'm assuming, Julian doesn't actually say): The Kaio-Ken Goku uses against Frieza was up to how many times? Ten! I remember because Super Saiyan was originally stated to be a x10 multiplier, until it was pointed out that it means Goku was no more powerful than when he used the 10x Kaio-Ken, which was barely effective. So SS was changed to x50 in later editions. FUCK it was twenty!
  6. 500 BP: With what line does Goku send off Majin Buu when he defeats him? "See ya later!"
  7. 300 BP: Who made the dogi that Gohan used on planet Namek? Gohan!
  8. 500 BP (I'm assuming): After the battle with Frieza, what was the reason Gohan hesitated in returning home? He hadn't done his homework while on Namek like Chi-Chi told him to!
  9. 500 BP: What is the number written on the side of Trunk's Time Machine? 1!
  10. 300 BP: When Trunks emerged from the Room of Spirit and Time, how had his appearance changed? His hair got longer! I'm pretty sure he was a bit taller too, as Bulma notes.
  11. 300 BP: The tens years after the battle with Buu, who was going to be Trunks' opponent in the first round of the Tenkaichi Budokai? The flagrantly homosexual YMCA man with a mustache! I think I get half points for that because I didn't know the name.
  12. 500 BP: In his first Tenkaichi Budokai as a child, who was his opponent in the first round? The smaller son of that stupid annoying fat lady from Alabama. Again, half-points.
  13. 300 BP: When training Gohan, Piccolo gave him clothes and what? A sword!
  14. 500 BP: At the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai, please select all of Piccolo's opponents. Krillin, Shen (Kami) and Son Goku!
  15. 300 BP: After merging with Kami, what did Goku call him when first seeing him? Kamiccolo!
  16. 300 BP: What was the reason for Piccolo's first-round loss at the Tenkaichi Budokai again Shin? He forfeited like a bitch due to Shin's overwhelming Grand Kai aura.
  17. 500 BP: What was the first opponent Piccolo fought after leaving the Room of Spirit and Time in the Cell Arc? A Cell Jr.
  18. 300 BP: While training for the Artificial Humans, Vegeta trained in gravity chamber. How many times did he reach? x100, just like Goku on his way to Namek. Oops, WRONG!
  19. 300 BP: Which ear did Vegeta put the Potara in when he fused with Goku? His left! I know from the second Final Chapter eyecatch with the sweet jazz. NOPE! The positions were flipped in the actual show, I forgot about that.
  20. 500 BP: After fighting with Goku on Earth, in the space ship, where was Vegeta headed? Frieza planet number something, to get healed. Hospital world? No that was GT.
  21. 300 BP: In Frieza's first form, what was his battle power? 500,000! NOPE!
  22. 300 BP: What was the only technique that Frieza showed off in his third form? Invisible finger lasers? CLOSE ENOUGH I'LL TAKE IT
  23. 500 BP: In his final form, what did Frieza say to Goku that really pissed him off? "I think the brat should be next" in the FUNi Kai dub. A threat towards Gohan. NO WAIT, IT WAS A BACK-HANDED INSULT TOWARDS KRILLIN! Dammit.
  24. 500 BP: When trying to trick #18 with #17's voice... okay, I legit cannot answer that question because Mike interrupted Julian like a cheating cheaty cheater. But I would have said that it was #17 talking to Gero in a respectful manner that tipped #18 off, so I'll take full points for that.
  25. 300 BP: How many Cell Jr.? Six? Seven apparently, who did I miss?
  26. 500 BP: In the Cell Games, according to the rules, what constitutes a loss? Falling outside the ring, death or forfeit, although the first one gets ruled out when Cell destroys the ring like a coward.
  27. 300 BP: What did Mr. Satan present to Majin Buu in the form of chocolate? Poison I think. If it was Julian's one, I would have said the Game BOY, not POY. So 150 on that one.
  28. What is the name of the super star actor that-... dammit Mike!
  29. What is the method that Majin Buu used to counter the powered-up Gohan? Absorbsion! WRONG.
  30. 300 BP: What did Majin Buu turn Chi-Chi into? An egg! He stepped on it and traumatized Goten, one of my favourite moments in the series for it's tragic tone.
  31. 500 BP: There were three people who were not hit by the Total Extinction Wave? Dende, Mr. Satan and Bee the dog. Who isn't a person, so Tenshinhan! I consider the question confusing, should have said Human Beings. 375 points.
  32. 500 BP: In the first Chapter, what was Bulma planning to get with her wish on the Dragon Balls? A boyfriend!
  33. 100 BP: What technique did Kame-Sen'nin use to put out the fire on Mount Frypan? The Kamehameha Wave!
  34. 500 BP: For what purpose was Kame-Sen'nin using the Basho-sen? As a placemat! I'll count that.
  35. What is the kanji written on Pilaf's clothes? Rice I think. Darnit.
  36. 300 BP: How heavy are the turtle shells initially worn by Goku and Kuririn? 50 pounds. They get upgraded to 100 pounds after the first day. Okay I'm gonna give myself that one because that's their weight in the FUNi dub.
  37. What is the name of the technique Nam uses against Goku? Shoot I dunno, I don't think it's ever mentioned in the dub.
  38. 500 BP: Which one of these colours is NOT used by members of the Red Ribbon Army? Green.
  39. What is the indian food that is the basis for Chappa-o, King Chappa? No idea.
  40. What is the pun behind the name of Kibito? No idea.
  41. 300 BP: Murasaki used his Bunsingnojitsu (sp?). Which one was the real one? ALL OF THEM.
  42. 300 BP: How many hairs are on Chaotzu's head? ONE!
  43. What is the name of the island Goku swims from to get to the 22nd Budokai? DAMMIT I KNOW THIS BUT CAN'T REMEMBER! Yahoi! Man they kept that in the dub!
  44. 300 BP: What is the true identity of the masked man who tries but fails to get a spot in the 23rd Budokai? Yajirobe!
  45. 500 BP: In the Namek Arc, what star ball is the Dragon Ball that was in the Great Elder's house? The One Star Ball!
  46. Goku's house in a remote mountain village is East what number district? 37? 24?
[/spoiler]
I gots a Battle Power of 12,200!

Man I wish there was a video feed for Meri's freak out on the Trunks question!

Gokitalo
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 103
Joined: Wed Apr 06, 2016 4:31 pm

Re: Episode #0445 (03 June 2018)

Post by Gokitalo » Sun Jun 03, 2018 11:08 pm

Very nice analysis from you guys. I liked how even-handed everyone was about the issue!

Anyway... we've known for a little while now that Toyotaro has traced or at least heavily referenced the original Dragon Ball manga itself for Super. I sort of assumed that if Toriyama's aware of it, he hasn't minded too much, although there was one interview where he encouraged Toyotaro to make the art more his own-- maybe this is what Toriyama was referring to.

Of course, things escalate quite a bit when Toyotaro starts tracing from artists he doesn't work with. I have to give Dexter Soy a lot of credit for handling it as well as he has. I think this should be Toyotaro's "strike one": the wake-up call that hopefully pushes him away from tracing. It may be wishful thinking, but if Soy is willing to let it slide and more importantly, Toyotaro's willing to change, then I think it's okay to give him another chance, as long as Toriyama's alright with it and it's made abundantly clear to Toyotaro that he can't do this again. At least Toyotaro can see the Tournament of Power through, as he designed a lot of the new characters and has built up a solid professional relationship with Toriyama at this point; replacing him could delay the creative process substantially.

After the ToP arc, however, I think the manga ought to take a break, as the anime has. That'll give Toyotaro time to develop his skills further or give Toriyama et al. the chance to find a new artist for whatever form the new chapter of Dragon Ball takes on next.

User avatar
KBABZ
I Live Here
Posts: 3816
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2017 9:38 pm
Location: The tallest tower in West City

Re: Episode #0445 (03 June 2018)

Post by KBABZ » Sun Jun 03, 2018 11:55 pm

So I actually got a chance to see the cover on the front page (I got the podcast link via the OP above).

Image

The main problem that I see immediately stick out is with Goku's shoulder. While his arm is reaching back like it does, the shoulder/clavicle does not, which is why is arm looks like it's breaking out of its socket. His head is doing something similar, the top of the body isn't rotated quite enough to justify the position of the head, which is why it looks like its breaking too. Unfortunately Toyotaro picked that one up from the original Captain America artwork. Lastly, I see Toyotaro tried to add in some extreme perspective with the left leg, but without the rest of his body participating, it just looks weird.

Overall it reminds me of this horrific piece of artwork where the arm feels only mathematically attached to the body rather than naturally, which, it must be said, was based on a manga panel:

Image

User avatar
Captain Awesome
I Live Here
Posts: 2568
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 1:31 am
Location: Australia, Planet Earth

Re: Episode #0445 (03 June 2018)

Post by Captain Awesome » Mon Jun 04, 2018 10:23 pm

Enjoyable podcast but I think Jeff shot from the hip without really knowing what he was talking about when he was engaging in quasi-legal arguments relating to representations made by the author of the work and what constitutes "evidence" of copyright infringement. The conversation felt really muddled as a result.

User avatar
dbgtFO
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 7706
Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2010 5:07 pm
Contact:

Re: Episode #0445 (03 June 2018)

Post by dbgtFO » Tue Jun 05, 2018 3:49 am

KBABZ wrote:
  1. 500 BP: There were three people who were not hit by the Total Extinction Wave? Dende, Mr. Satan and Bee the dog. Who isn't a person, so Tenshinhan! I consider the question confusing, should have said Human Beings. 375 points.
No, the correct answer is Tenshinhan, CHAOZU and Mr. Satan. Dende and the others on the lookout don't count, because they weren't targeted by Buu.

User avatar
KBABZ
I Live Here
Posts: 3816
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2017 9:38 pm
Location: The tallest tower in West City

Re: Episode #0445 (03 June 2018)

Post by KBABZ » Tue Jun 05, 2018 4:22 am

dbgtFO wrote:
KBABZ wrote:
  1. 500 BP: There were three people who were not hit by the Total Extinction Wave? Dende, Mr. Satan and Bee the dog. Who isn't a person, so Tenshinhan! I consider the question confusing, should have said Human Beings. 375 points.
No, the correct answer is Tenshinhan, CHAOZU and Mr. Satan. Dende and the others on the lookout don't count, because they weren't targeted by Buu.
Oops! Forgot to mark that one in red!

User avatar
DBZfan29
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 418
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2009 8:11 pm
Location: Bayonne, NJ

Re: Episode #0445 (03 June 2018)

Post by DBZfan29 » Thu Jun 07, 2018 2:00 pm

Captain Awesome wrote:Enjoyable podcast but I think Jeff shot from the hip without really knowing what he was talking about when he was engaging in quasi-legal arguments relating to representations made by the author of the work and what constitutes "evidence" of copyright infringement. The conversation felt really muddled as a result.
Yeah, I agree. Not quite sure what he was getting at about people taking unoriginal photos of landmarks and how there's anything wrong with that if it's just for sentimental value. Didn't seem relevant. I think as Mike was saying this isn't really about infringing on anyone's rights, it's about fans expecting more from an official creator of the series.

User avatar
TheGreatness25
I Live Here
Posts: 4111
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2007 9:36 am

Re: Episode #0445 (03 June 2018)

Post by TheGreatness25 » Thu Jun 07, 2018 3:20 pm

I found this episode to be really, really informative, entertaining, and it touched on a very important topic. I had a blast listening to this, thank you! And then when the quiz book came out, I did pretty well for the first few questions or so lol

I will say, though, that the episode inspired me to draw something and after about 10 attempts of drawing something without a real reference, I decided that I was in over my head and gave up. Oh well, maybe one day I'll nail it without having to look at something else.

jpranevich
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 101
Joined: Sat Jul 10, 2004 9:51 pm

Re: Episode #0445 (03 June 2018)

Post by jpranevich » Thu Jun 07, 2018 5:20 pm

Great podcast as usual, but I'm concerned that you had too much false equivalency in your analysis of the Toyotaro situation.

Toyble sampling from the real Dragon Ball manga to build a Dragon Ball AF fan manga, or even for a professional Dragon Ball Super manga, isn't a tremendously big deal. In the former case, he was a fan artist doing a fan work and re-using elements of the work that he is fanning over (for lack of a better term) doesn't seem surprising or much worse than unlicensed reuse of the characters and setting anyway. If he did trace any Dragon Ball manga for Dragon Ball Super's manga then it's all the same franchise and he has a direct master-apprentice relationship with the original author. That seems "okay", perhaps even occasionally "expected".

But tracing from a Captain Marvel issue is a completely different story. Although your podcast did not cover it, some of the Reddit threads showed direct line-for-line correspondence in things like Goku's hands which suggest that it was more than a "reference". With Captain Marvel, there is no connection with Dragon Ball except that he used a Captain America pose to more than inform a Goku pose. It just feels like a much bigger deal and less acceptable. The fact that it was cover art, i.e. visible and used to sell more copies of the manga, makes it even worse. A hidden panel somewhere? Eh. The cover? Well, that means something.

I happen to be in the minority that has enjoyed his take on Dragon Ball Super a great deal. I think he cares more for power scaling and consistency than Toei/Toriyama ever have and I found his retelling of the Goku Black saga to be in many ways superior. I'm very let down by this and I hope he can move on without doing this again. I hope he does not get kicked off of the team, but he let a lot of fans down by doing this.

User avatar
TheGreatness25
I Live Here
Posts: 4111
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2007 9:36 am

Re: Episode #0445 (03 June 2018)

Post by TheGreatness25 » Thu Jun 07, 2018 5:26 pm

jpranevich wrote:I happen to be in the minority that has enjoyed his take on Dragon Ball Super a great deal. I think he cares more for power scaling and consistency than Toei/Toriyama ever have and I found his retelling of the Goku Black saga to be in many ways superior.


Would that be up to him? I was under the impression that he was merely the artist for the manga, while Toriyama was still in charge of the story. I'm honestly confused about the entire anime/manga of Super and who's in charge of what (mostly because I don't have much interest in it aside from it being on my "to watch/read" list one day). But, I'm pretty sure that Toyotaro was merely the artist.

It's fine that he traced as a fan artist -- more wouldn't even be expected. Lots of people do that and even back in the day, aside from a few original images, the majority of the AF pictures that came out, were in fact Photoshopped. I don't think that there's any sort of expectation from an artist that openly creates a fan manga based on an existing manga. However, as an artist on an official work? While tracing is understandable sometimes, and there's nothing inherently wrong with it, I'll agree with the points brought up in the Podcast where the idea came forth that this prevents an adequate understanding of why things look a certain way. I can take a great picture of Goku and try to trace over it with another character with another outfit -- this could lead to anatomy issues, as there needs to be an understanding of what's connected to what, etc. As pointed out, this lack of understanding why certain images are composed the way they are in the original manga, has led to issues with necks, etc.

User avatar
VegettoEX
Kanzenshuu Co-Owner & Administrator
Posts: 16350
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2004 3:10 pm
Location: New Jersey
Contact:

Re: Episode #0445 (03 June 2018)

Post by VegettoEX » Thu Jun 07, 2018 5:32 pm

jpranevich wrote:Toyble sampling from the real Dragon Ball manga to build a Dragon Ball AF fan manga, or even for a professional Dragon Ball Super manga, isn't a tremendously big deal. In the former case, he was a fan artist doing a fan work and re-using elements of the work that he is fanning over (for lack of a better term) doesn't seem surprising or much worse than unlicensed reuse of the characters and setting anyway. If he did trace any Dragon Ball manga for Dragon Ball Super's manga then it's all the same franchise and he has a direct master-apprentice relationship with the original author. That seems "okay", perhaps even occasionally "expected".
The intent there was simply to set a baseline and to frame the historical context as "has traced before"... which has transitioned into "is suspected to still be tracing" and "well now we know for sure he's still tracing". You're right in that it's "not a big deal" in his AF comic... or perhaps it is to someone?... but it's definitely worth pointing out.

The Captain Marvel tracing would still be a big deal if it was the first instance of ever knowing he's traced something, but it's far more informed by knowing there's a past behind it.
:: [| Mike "VegettoEX" LaBrie |] ::
:: [| Kanzenshuu - Co-Founder/Administrator, Podcast Host, News Manager (note: our "job" titles are arbitrary and meaningless) |] ::
:: [| Website: January 1998 |] :: [| Podcast: November 2005 |] :: [| Fusion: April 2012 |] :: [| Wiki: 20XX |] ::

jpranevich
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 101
Joined: Sat Jul 10, 2004 9:51 pm

Re: Episode #0445 (03 June 2018)

Post by jpranevich » Thu Jun 07, 2018 5:38 pm

Would that be up to him? I was under the impression that he was merely the artist for the manga, while Toriyama was still in charge of the story. I'm honestly confused about the entire anime/manga of Super and who's in charge of what (mostly because I don't have much interest in it aside from it being on my "to watch/read" list one day). But, I'm pretty sure that Toyotaro was merely the artist.
My understanding from other threads here (I'll look for the reference) is that Toriyama provided some sort of plot outline to Toyotaro and Toei. These outlines were less than a script, more a list of things that Toriyama said happened, although I do not believe the fan community has ever seen one of these outlines. Within those bounds, they could each produce their story. That is why the manga follows the same plot but has differences in the way the battles play out, what attacks are used, and even on clothing. (Gohan wears the Piccolo suit, for example, in the Super manga while the anime had him in the Kame gi.) It seems that Toyotaro has some artistic license in the way the story is told, but not the overall beats of the story itself.

Gokitalo
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 103
Joined: Wed Apr 06, 2016 4:31 pm

Re: Episode #0445 (03 June 2018)

Post by Gokitalo » Thu Jun 07, 2018 10:19 pm

jpranevich wrote: My understanding from other threads here (I'll look for the reference) is that Toriyama provided some sort of plot outline to Toyotaro and Toei. These outlines were less than a script, more a list of things that Toriyama said happened, although I do not believe the fan community has ever seen one of these outlines. Within those bounds, they could each produce their story. That is why the manga follows the same plot but has differences in the way the battles play out, what attacks are used, and even on clothing. (Gohan wears the Piccolo suit, for example, in the Super manga while the anime had him in the Kame gi.) It seems that Toyotaro has some artistic license in the way the story is told, but not the overall beats of the story itself.
Exactly. In a way, Toyotaro does sometimes get a lot of freedom: giving Trunks healing powers in the manga version of the Goku Black arc was a big diversion, although Toyo was careful to have Trunks decide to get rid of them at the end. In fact, Toyotaro did contribute a really huge plot element that made it into both the manga AND the anime, which was the return of Vegetto: he mentions that in volume two of the Tori-Toyo Free Talk, which the site posted a little while ago.
jpranevich wrote: I happen to be in the minority that has enjoyed his take on Dragon Ball Super a great deal. I think he cares more for power scaling and consistency than Toei/Toriyama ever have and I found his retelling of the Goku Black saga to be in many ways superior. I'm very let down by this and I hope he can move on without doing this again. I hope he does not get kicked off of the team, but he let a lot of fans down by doing this.
Haha, maybe a minority now with the current controversy and the mixed reception to Toyotaro's version of the ToP arc, but you're not alone: I've also really enjoyed his Super. Despite tracing and anatomy issues, he does do a lot right as an artist, and I think a lot of his plot ideas have been really stellar. Not too surprising, as his plot creativity is partially what got everyone's attention when he did his AF (e.g. introducing the "Ryu-Shin" realm for the Dragons). And I agree that he's handled power scaling a lot better than the Super anime has: didn't even need to give Trunks an "angry Super Saiyan" form!

That's why I think Toyo could benefit from a second chance. He's more than just the artist for the manga: he's a very hands-on contributor (including the manga's scripter). I think he should definitely be reprimanded and watched over, but I also think he'd be willing to change, especially since working on Super is clearly a dream job for him. After the ToP arc, Toriyama and co. can contemplate their options and decide if Toyo's changed enough to warrant his continued involvement in the franchise.

Post Reply