Episode #0125 (20 April 2008)

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Post by Velasa » Sun Apr 20, 2008 10:42 pm

There's something for the argument about Pic that I'm surprised no one has brought up yet, a scene just a few minutes before that one.

When the genki dama goes off, everyone gets blown away. Krillian and Gohan get out of the mess of their own, but Son doesn't- Pic pulls him from the water without anyone saying anything to him or asking him to. Son barely seems conscious, and it takes such an effort to move at all that he wouldn't have been able to swim against that current alone. This isn't a mid-battle thing like any of the previous saves- the enemy is supposedly dead and they can just go home. But he consciously drags him up there instead of leaving his longtime rival to drown. It's a major gap he breaches withing himself at that point and I've always loved it. If he would go that far to save his life I can see him taking the extra step some two-three minutes later.

I do not have my manga with me right now unfortunately, so I can't back-check this scene there. But I'm pretty certain that it is.
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Post by Herms » Sun Apr 20, 2008 10:49 pm

Velasa wrote:I do not have my manga with me right now unfortunately, so I can't back-check this scene there. But I'm pretty certain that it is.
Yeah, that scene is in the manga as well. And there's that whole scene afterward with everyone all happy now that Freeza is dead (they think), and Piccolo seems pretty close to everyone.

Another thing that wasn't mentioned was that at this point Piccolo has already fused with Nail, which would probably affect his personality somewhat. Nail was after all Saichourou's bodyguard and used to altruistic actions.
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Post by Velasa » Sun Apr 20, 2008 10:58 pm

Hell yes.

While he and Neru fused are... a liiitle headstrong at first, once he gets down from that initial "HOLY CRAP I'M AWESOME!" surge, Neru's lighter nature has an effect on him. I can see how that could impact everything as well.

Pic actually kinda smiles in that scene, and he actually laughs a little with everybody else. For him to even be able to do that means that a lot has changed. Even if it isn't really defined in the manga that he took the bullet, I'll always see it that way.
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Post by SSJ2bardock » Mon Apr 21, 2008 12:15 am

Velasa wrote:There's something for the argument about Pic that I'm surprised no one has brought up yet, a scene just a few minutes before that one.

When the genki dama goes off, everyone gets blown away. Krillian and Gohan get out of the mess of their own, but Son doesn't- Pic pulls him from the water without anyone saying anything to him or asking him to. Son barely seems conscious, and it takes such an effort to move at all that he wouldn't have been able to swim against that current alone. This isn't a mid-battle thing like any of the previous saves- the enemy is supposedly dead and they can just go home. But he consciously drags him up there instead of leaving his longtime rival to drown. It's a major gap he breaches withing himself at that point and I've always loved it. If he would go that far to save his life I can see him taking the extra step some two-three minutes later.

I do not have my manga with me right now unfortunately, so I can't back-check this scene there. But I'm pretty certain that it is.
You bring up a really good point and some could argue that "if anyone defeats Goku it's going to be me" stuff, but Piccolo showed during the battle with Raditz he doesn't have morals like that or at least back then he didn't.
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Post by Velasa » Mon Apr 21, 2008 1:02 am

It's pretty clearly not the "if anyone beats him it's gonna be me!" sentiment by that point. I'm not sure how I'd describe it purely in terms of physical examples from the cannon, but there's... just so much damn change that happens before he runs into Son again, and even after he does. Lemme try though....

Basically- Pic did kill Son. But it just left him feeling him hollow. After seeing that he has other choices, after having someone actually care about him, after touching the soil of his homeworld and being infused with memories from his people, there's no way he would do that again.

If I recall correctly, when he snaps at Krillian about being perfectly capable of taking up the mantle of Daimaou and taking over things it was right before he chose to go back to Kami, which was a heavy blow to his ego because he despises the guy. So he was feeling tense and one of the humans was acting way too friendly and he snapped at him to insist he had more control over his life than he really did at that point. It would have been more a defensive thing if that is the timing.
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Post by Rocketman » Mon Apr 21, 2008 1:15 am

I think the source of the filler is that the manga seems unclear, as doodled here by me:

Image

Piccolo's tall, but not that tall. He lands with his feet clear of Krillin even though he was standing on the other side of Goku. He had to have been jumping to make that distance.

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Post by SSJ2bardock » Mon Apr 21, 2008 1:27 am

Velasa wrote:It's pretty clearly not the "if anyone beats him it's gonna be me!" sentiment by that point. I'm not sure how I'd describe it purely in terms of physical examples from the cannon, but there's... just so much damn change that happens before he runs into Son again, and even after he does. Lemme try though....

Basically- Pic did kill Son. But it just left him feeling him hollow. After seeing that he has other choices, after having someone actually care about him, after touching the soil of his homeworld and being infused with memories from his people, there's no way he would do that again.

If I recall correctly, when he snaps at Krillian about being perfectly capable of taking up the mantle of Daimaou and taking over things it was right before he chose to go back to Kami, which was a heavy blow to his ego because he despises the guy. So he was feeling tense and one of the humans was acting way too friendly and he snapped at him to insist he had more control over his life than he really did at that point. It would have been more a defensive thing if that is the timing.
I agree, he is just having a hard time coping with what he has become and by the end of the series Piccolo is one of Goku's most trusted friends.
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Post by Son Wukong » Mon Apr 21, 2008 5:53 am

Maybe Piccolo still had a small grudge against Goku but just as with Raditz, at his time, the main objective in Namek was to beat Freeza. And I always saw Piccolo as the quick thinker of the whole gang and that made it feasible for me in the anime to think that Piccolo intercepted the blast knowing that if it would be anyone who would have a chance against Freeza it would be Goku.

And I really don't think Piccolo would jump in front of Goku to make sure Gohan wouldn't get hurt because he actually yells ''GOKU'' before he pushes him away and gets hit wiht Freeza's blast.

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Post by Saiyavenger2941 » Mon Apr 21, 2008 3:34 pm

Meri wrote:Illiterate, asinine, stupid, impossible-to-reason-with fanboys.
Truer words never spoken.

I do have to say that could also apply to Sonic the Hedgehog or Kingdom Hearts fans as well.

(Which, by the way, I'm a fan of both aforementioned franchises. Just, the majority of the fans are douchebags.)
Mike wrote:So, do you think he took the shot for Gohan, maybe?
That's what I think, honestly. He doesn't care much for Goku at this point, but he DOES care a lot for Gohan. I believe he didn't want Gohan growing up without a father. (Of course, that ended up happening anyways, but...)
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Post by dowlingusa » Mon Apr 21, 2008 10:30 pm

Son Wukong wrote:Maybe Piccolo still had a small grudge against Goku but just as with Raditz, at his time, the main objective in Namek was to beat Freeza.
I honestly don't think there is a grudge there anymore. Piccolo offered his life to protect Goku from Freeza while he finished the "spirit bomb"! He even looked troubled while he watched Goku get pummeled by Freeza previously. You could argue that the main goal was to beat Freeza, but even then Piccolo is constantly helping Goku (I don't need to list them since they are all listed above). It's just one to many coincidences to convince me Piccolo is only helping to protect Gohan or just kill Freeza. Maybe I'm misinterpreting?
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Post by Saiyavenger2941 » Mon Apr 21, 2008 10:58 pm

dowlingusa wrote:
Son Wukong wrote:Maybe Piccolo still had a small grudge against Goku but just as with Raditz, at his time, the main objective in Namek was to beat Freeza.
I honestly don't think there is a grudge there anymore. Piccolo offered his life to protect Goku from Freeza while he finished the "spirit bomb"! He even looked troubled while he watched Goku get pummeled by Freeza previously. You could argue that the main goal was to beat Freeza, but even then Piccolo is constantly helping Goku (I don't need to list them since they are all listed above). Its just one to many coincidences to convince me Piccolo is only helping to protect Gohan or just kill Freeza. Maybe I'm misinterpreting?
That's a pretty good point too. I'm not sure if this was just a dub add-in, or if it was really part of the original script, but Piccolo, after seeing Goku go at it with Freezy-Pop for a few minutes, says something along the lines of "I wouldn't mind having a chance to spar with him again."

What stands out in that quote, for me at least, was he said "spar" instead of "fight".

In any instance, it can be looked at both ways.

Man, here's hoping the next inconsistency is this interesting. Genius stuff.
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Post by veshira » Tue Apr 22, 2008 3:29 pm

Hmm.. I didn't listen to the podcast yet (it's still downloadin') but I did watch the "Inconsistencies" video.

I think that yes, it's more Freeza's style to kill of the small fries first, and he would have done Piccolo, Kuririn, and Gohan before Goku. However, he didn't shoot Piccolo through the heart to really kill him. So maybe Freeza's aim is pretty bad, or he wanted to let Piccolo die slowly, but if Piccolo was able to survive something like that while being dragged around by Gohan, then I think Freeza should have gone for a shot through the heart.

Anime wise, it's possible that Freeza was so PO'd that we went for Goku first, but Piccolo saved him; this amusing him, Freeza changes his mind and kills Kuririn next. Or he's so angry that he's just randomly killing whoever without even caring. However, Freeza seems to be calculating while he's staring at them on top of that rock.

So I guess neither way really works perfectly. D:
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Post by djkalteraphine » Tue Apr 22, 2008 4:27 pm

"Forbidden Kingdom" was freaking sweet.

On the inconsistency video, I'd say that I do believe Piccolo, at this point, would "take a bullet" for Goku. He's half Nail, remember? And Nail was told specifically by Saichoro to keep the "Earthlings" alive and fighting. Also, at this point in the fight, Piccolo would have seen what Goku can do against Freeza, compared to what he can do (which wasn't very much after Freeza's second transformation). They'd already lost Vegeta, and if Goku dies, their fight is lost: Piccolo is not stupid, he knows he can't defeat Freeza, and that Goku just might. So, when you add it up - the saint-like Nail side, and a practical and logical chessmaster Piccolo side, him jumping in the way of Goku is the perfectly logical and most likely.

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Post by dowlingusa » Tue Apr 22, 2008 7:22 pm

djkalteraphine wrote:"Forbidden Kingdom" was freaking sweet.

On the inconsistency video, I'd say that I do believe Piccolo, at this point, would "take a bullet" for Goku. He's half Nail, remember? And Nail was told specifically by Saichoro to keep the "Earthlings" alive and fighting. Also, at this point in the fight, Piccolo would have seen what Goku can do against Freeza, compared to what he can do (which wasn't very much after Freeza's second transformation). They'd already lost Vegeta, and if Goku dies, their fight is lost: Piccolo is not stupid, he knows he can't defeat Freeza, and that Goku just might. So, when you add it up - the saint-like Nail side, and a practical and logical chessmaster Piccolo side, him jumping in the way of Goku is the perfectly logical and most likely.
Those are all fantastic points. A great summery of the main ideas being thrown around the forum. I definitely think Piccolo knew Goku was the only shot they had. I had also forgotten Nail's influence on Piccolo at the time too. This brings up the question: how much impact did Nail have on Piccolo's views on Goku? Was it 50% Nail in the "new" Piccolo, or less?
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Post by djkalteraphine » Tue Apr 22, 2008 7:36 pm

dowlingusa wrote: Was it 50% Nail in the "new" Piccolo, or less?
I would say at least 40%-ish, but a good half-and-half is always how I've seen it. Nail is one of those obscure characters I've always loved, so I've actually thought about this many times in the past. And I'm of the belief that Piccolo became much wiser and certainly more good natured after his merger with Nail; Though, I seem to recall Nail assuring him otherwise, it's plain when Piccolo is interacting with the other Nameks, and even with Freeza, that Nail was lying to him. :roll:

Whether or not Nail was a huge influence is debatable; but he was certainly an influence, that much we know.
dowlingusa wrote:Those are all fantastic points. A great summery of the main ideas being thrown around the forum.
Thank you. :D

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Post by Saiyavenger2941 » Tue Apr 22, 2008 10:56 pm

I'd like to hear a continuation of the topic on the next episode. With the new ideas (Nail; Freeza originally wanting to kill Goku, but changing his plans after Piccolo's sacrifice) and a possible return for Julian, I think it'd be a great idea and a real treat for us listeners.
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Post by Velasa » Wed Apr 23, 2008 12:55 am

Damn, I love running through the possibilities on what impact the three different people in his head have on Pic. They're really polar voices- there's Daimaou's dark violence, Kami's holier-than-thou with good intentions and Neru's balance between all of them- he's not weighted too heavily in either direction and much cooler-headed than any of them at times. I wish we could have gotten to see more of him o_o

I like to believe that they're all still in there, slowly driving Pic crazy and annoying the living hell out of him ^_~
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Post by Sedorna » Wed Apr 23, 2008 11:46 pm

Silly confession time. When Mike was talking about The Forbidden Kingdom, and mentioned a guy from Boston, my immediate thought was, "Boston? Wow. Weren't they around in the seventies?" Then, I realized it was the city, and not the band.

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