Ocean Studios' "Dragon Ball Kai" Dub Turns 10; Still Unreleased

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Re: Ocean Studios' "Dragon Ball Kai" dub seems to be coming...

Post by Robo4900 » Wed Oct 17, 2018 1:03 pm

wjbraden, that was very interesting, though it is entirely speculative, and... Honestly, I wouldn't put much stock in it.

Don't get me wrong, I applaud your post, it's very well thought-out, and I do enjoy the speculation, but let's not get ahead of ourselves and jump to conclusions. And, of course, do remember that YTV didn't jump into this dub until episode 168, while the UK and Holland had it starting from 60 episodes earlier, from the first episode that dub produced. And they were pretty much in parallel to Funimation's dub production, so if YTV were really desperate about cancon, they could have switched over much, much earlier.

I really don't think the Westwood dub's production was anything to do with cancon. I think it's worth noting that Ocean were involved in some capacity with the version of Funi's in-house Z that aired in Canada, and the idea that the tapes had to be shipped to Toei, then back to Ocean would make some amount of sense in terms of why YTV had so much trouble getting ahold of episodes... However, if this was the case, I would say it wouldn't be because of cancon. In fact, I would say overall the more likely scenario to all of that would be that since Funimation were still working with Ocean in some capacity for their in-house dub's production(We know that they still had some of the Ocean writers on-board for the scripting), it's possible they had Ocean handle the Canadian distribution of the show, since Funi's HQ was down in Texas, and the whole point of moving things in-house was so Funimation guys didn't have to keep flying up to Canada(Which Chris Sabat cited in his Geekdom interview as a big reason for Funi moving things in-house), so maybe it was easier to get Ocean to handle some of that, so the differences in edits that have been pointed out could be because Funi sent initial edits to Ocean to distribute, then didn't bother to send them a second set for when they decided to change a music cue or two. Meanwhile, through some combination of circumstances, Ocean ended up making some minor edits, perhaps as a requirement to make it an official "Ocean production", including replacing the music to the opening with a new song, and adding some sound effects.

I think Occam's Razor applies here; you could go on a whole thing about cancon, shady deals, YTV having some sort of struggle, but it's a very complex, cumbersome explanation, perhaps with some truth to it, but a much simpler explanation is more likely, really.
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Re: Ocean Studios' "Dragon Ball Kai" dub seems to be coming...

Post by wjbraden » Wed Oct 17, 2018 2:20 pm

@Robo4900

Yeah, everything I said was nothing more than pure speculation, I don't want to start sounding like Alex Jones here :lol: . I also wasn't aware that Ocean employees, like Terry, continued to work on scripting for Funimation for the Texas dub. Do we have any idea how long Terry continued scripting (episode-wise). I still stand by my idea that Toei sent Funimation tapes to Ocean, as silly and labor-intensive as it sounds to have to make and send copies over (in physical tape form in those days) from America to Japan, and then Japan to Canada, but that's Japanese licensors for you.

You made a lot of good points about not being over-speculative, but it's just the bizarreness of the whole situation, added sound effects, removed logos, alternate dubs being made, that make me think there was some crazy, crazy stuff going on. But, we shall likely never know the truth, unfortunately.

I also want to apologize for my horrible grammar and typos in my wall of text. When I banged that thing out last night, I didn't double check until after I posted, and since we can't edit our posts anymore I couldn't fix it. :oops:

Also, just wanted to mention that I had a chance to look at all those clips Azelf posted with the added sound effects. While the added SFX in the movies were placed sparingly and rather "artisitcally" done, here they just sound really campy. It's like Ocean was just going out of it's way to say "hey look, we added tons of Canadian sound effects to this show, so it's Canadian? Right? Right CRTC, please give us Cancon points!!" :shifty:
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Re: Ocean Studios' "Dragon Ball Kai" dub seems to be coming...

Post by Robo4900 » Wed Oct 17, 2018 3:08 pm

wjbraden wrote:@Robo4900

Yeah, everything I said was nothing more than pure speculation, I don't want to start sounding like Alex Jones here :lol: . I also wasn't aware that Ocean employees, like Terry, continued to work on scripting for Funimation for the Texas dub. Do we have any idea how long Terry continued scripting (episode-wise). I still stand by my idea that Toei sent Funimation tapes to Ocean, as silly and labor-intensive as it sounds to have to make and send copies over (in physical tape form in those days) from America to Japan, and then Japan to Canada, but that's Japanese licensors for you.

You made a lot of good points about not being over-speculative, but it's just the bizarreness of the whole situation, added sound effects, removed logos, alternate dubs being made, that make me think there was some crazy, crazy stuff going on. But, we shall likely never know the truth, unfortunately.

I also want to apologize for my horrible grammar and typos in my wall of text. When I banged that thing out last night, I didn't double check until after I posted, and since we can't edit our posts anymore I couldn't fix it. :oops:

Also, just wanted to mention that I had a chance to look at all those clips Azelf posted with the added sound effects. While the added SFX in the movies were placed sparingly and rather "artisitcally" done, here they just sound really campy. It's like Ocean was just going out of it's way to say "hey look, we added tons of Canadian sound effects to this show, so it's Canadian? Right? Right CRTC, please give us Cancon points!!" :shifty:
I really don't think cancon entered into this at all. It just doesn't make sense. The CRTC weren't going to certify a show to be Canadian just based off of some sound effects being added, and a new OP.

No offense, but to me, your story just sounds like you feel a certain way about what might have happened, and you've invented a scenario for that to have happened in, and while the story does make a certain amount of sense, there's nothing to support it, and a lot of it is some rather heavy leaps of logic for the sake of making what you feel might be the case, despite various other much simpler explanations. For instance, the tapes being shipped to Japan then back out to Canada really doesn't make sense, especially since Canada did get Funimation's dub for a while, it's widely-known one of the big troubles during the in-house Funi days was that Funimation were terrible about getting tapes to YTV, which changed when the AB Z dub began, and ultimately, Funi and Ocean were working together -- at the very least on scripts -- all the way up through Z, so there's no reason to believe either party wanted to screw the other over by forcing them to go through Japan. It just makes infinitely more sense for them to have just shipped the tapes to Canada, and for Ocean to have used the earlier edits and added their own SFX and OP for distribution reasons. Again, Occam's Razor.

Really though, while your speculation an interesting way of looking at things, it really doesn't hold water; the Canadian dubs, and the Ocean distribution of the in-house Funi dub almost certainly were nothing to do with cancon. If cancon was an issue, YTV would have either switched to Ocean at 108, or got on the phone and figured out something that would have got Ocean dubbing it again from 54. Waiting all the way to 168 to switch to their dub makes no sense with this narrative, and the idea of the added SFX and changed OP affecting the cancon status is nonsensical.
And the plagiarism thing just sounds like you're trying to throw conflict into a situation where there is none. If Ocean and Funimation had any issues with each-other, the Canadian writers would have never stayed on-staff, and Funi's scripts and video master would have never made it to Ocean.
Remember that Ocean switched to using the AB video masters for DB and GT, likely because of the fact the dub was produced by AB Groupe. If the option was to either import Funi's version from Japan or import AB's from France, they'd certainly have used AB's from the get-go in Z. And, finally, there's the issue of DB's scripts... DB's scripts were largely based on Funi's, though with major corrections and rewriting. If Ocean was getting Funi's materials by importing video from Japan, they would never have had Funi's scripts for DB.

As for Ocean script guys staying on board, they were working on the show all the way up to at least GT.
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Re: Ocean Studios' "Dragon Ball Kai" dub seems to be coming...

Post by wjbraden » Wed Oct 17, 2018 5:13 pm

I don't know, if cancon had nothing to do with it, why make the all the edits to Texas dub, why make a whole new dub from scratch? As I mentioned, I know there were people who supposedly enjoyed the Canadian cast than the Texas one, but that really doesn't justify things from a financial perspective. All that editing, dubbing, sound design was no doubt a costly, costly thing to do, especially if they didn't need to do it in the first place if they could have just aired the Texas dub of the rest of Z and all of DB and GT exactly like it had on Toonami in America. Waiting for tapes because Funimation "took a long time to send them" also doesn't financially justify just going and making a new dub either. Being able to air your best performing show in primetime and meet cancon requires, does make financial sense though.

As for why YTV didn't start airing the Westwood dub with episode 108, it's as Ariel mentioned. YTV had already bought and received the tapes for episodes 108-167 likely before the prospect of creating the Westwood dub came to fruition. Why they didn't swap out eps.108-167 with the Westwood dub in subsequent reruns, like how the initial airing on Toonami UK aired the Funimation dub at first for some Buu saga episodes, and then the Westwood dub in reruns, I'm unsure. Maybe oversight at YTV, maybe laziness?

That point also adds to my "Tapes from Toei" theory. When Toonami UK was airing the series, they most likely weren't receiving tapes from Funimation and Ocean, they were receiving them directly from Toei (or by extension Toei Europe which handles properties over there). And just like Funimation was required to send their dubbing materials over to Toei for their archives, Ocean/Westwood was as well. When the Funimation dub of the Buu saga progressed further than its Westwood counterpart, Toonami UK wasn't calling up Ocean or Funimation for tapes, they were just getting whatever Toei had for distribution. Ocean hadn't yet submitted their tapes to Toei for those Buu episodes, but Funimation had, so when Toonami UK was looking for new episodes, Toei said "Here you go, by the way some of these episodes have different voices for now, we'll give you updated tapes later" and Toonami UK said "Sure, whatever" (actually, that conversation never likely occured, it likely just happened without any fanfare :lol:).

This also leads me to think it wasn't audience preferences so much that led to the dub airing in the UK/Netherlands or wherever, but the fact that the Westwood dub was cheaper to air than the Funimation version. The Westwood dub was done on the cheap in comparison to the Funimation version, and thus was probably cheaper to air than the Funimation version (royalties to use the Faulconer score were probably more expensive than the recycled Megaman music was).

As I mentioned before, I read that in addition to the masters, the scripts of dubs have to be sent back Japan oftentimes too. When Ocean asked Toei for materials, they likely would have had a copy of the Funimation scripts to give to them as well (though Toei has been known to be very unreliable and weird about this, as they've given some weird, "haggard" translations as TheBlackPaladin puts it which is Funimation at one point had to go off the Mexican dub at one point - plus wasn't there rumors about the people at Ocean copying the scripts from the Funimation dub off American TV - Toei's unreliability about giving scripts out would explain why they would have to go and do that at some point -plagiarism aside).

Maybe there was no animosity between Funimation, Ocean and Corus, but I will tell you this, YTV didn't air other properties Funimation for several years after they switched to using the Westwood dub (from 2000-2006). It's as if Corus' loyalty to Ocean, and wanting to score cancon points, took priority over wanting to work with Funimation again for a long time. Also, having the Canadian people work on the American dub and Canadian dub at the same time doesn't prove there wasn't animosity between Funimation and Ocean. Terry's work on the American Z and GT dub could have been freelance work done under the noses of his bosses at his regular job at Ocean. Voice actors in unions do this stuff all the time when doing non-union productions (which union contracts strongly prohibit from doing), but they get around this by freelancing themselves and being credited under a pseudonym. The people at their union job can't get them for it, while the voice actors are able to do extra work under the table, no questions asked.

Sorry Robo if I sounded condescending in anyway, I really didn't mean to. I don't have any real feelings about one dub over the other, I'm just a nerd who's more curious behind the weird story of these alternate dubs is all :lol: .
Last edited by wjbraden on Wed Oct 17, 2018 5:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ocean Studios' "Dragon Ball Kai" dub seems to be coming...

Post by SX10 » Wed Oct 17, 2018 5:27 pm

Hey guys, who is Azelf, and where can I see his clips about added SFX in ocean dubs? Always been super curious to check that out.
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Re: Ocean Studios' "Dragon Ball Kai" dub seems to be coming...

Post by wjbraden » Wed Oct 17, 2018 5:30 pm

SX10 wrote:Hey guys, who is Azelf, and where can I see his clips about added SFX in ocean dubs? Always been super curious to check that out.
His clips, or rather Arian's originally, are posted on the previous page (viewtopic.php?f=16&t=14416&start=6260#p1546744).

By the way, now that I think of it, is their proof of Ocean adding sound effects to Texas dub for the YTV airings of eps.108-167 (the clips only show Namek and Pre-Trunks)?
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Re: Ocean Studios' "Dragon Ball Kai" dub seems to be coming...

Post by Danfun64 » Wed Oct 17, 2018 6:28 pm

Azelf89 wrote:Actually you’re kinda right. They did use the Ocean Group logo for the in-house Funi dub (as shown here), though not always as other episodes that aired on YTV had the Funi logo at the end (as shown at the end here).
The second of those two clips is from the 108-167 period, and it sounds like ocean sound effects were added to me.
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Re: Ocean Studios' "Dragon Ball Kai" dub seems to be coming...

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:01 pm

wjbraden wrote:I don't know, if cancon had nothing to do with it, why make the all the edits to Texas dub, why make a whole new dub from scratch? As I mentioned, I know there were people who supposedly enjoyed the Canadian cast than the Texas one, but that really doesn't justify things from a financial perspective. All that editing, dubbing, sound design was no doubt a costly, costly thing to do, especially if they didn't need to do it in the first place if they could have just aired the Texas dub of the rest of Z and all of DB and GT exactly like it had on Toonami in America. Waiting for tapes because Funimation "took a long time to send them" also doesn't financially justify just going and making a new dub either. Being able to air your best performing show in primetime and meet cancon requires, does make financial sense though.

As for why YTV didn't start airing the Westwood dub with episode 108, it's as Ariel mentioned. YTV had already bought and received the tapes for episodes 108-167 likely before the prospect of creating the Westwood dub came to fruition. Why they didn't swap out eps.108-167 with the Westwood dub in subsequent reruns, like how the initial airing on Toonami UK aired the Funimation dub at first for some Buu saga episodes, and then the Westwood dub in reruns, I'm unsure. Maybe oversight at YTV, maybe laziness?

That point also adds to my "Tapes from Toei" theory. When Toonami UK was airing the series, they most likely weren't receiving tapes from Funimation and Ocean, they were receiving them directly from Toei (or by extension Toei Europe which handles properties over there). And just like Funimation was required to send their dubbing materials over to Toei for their archives, Ocean/Westwood was as well. When the Funimation dub of the Buu saga progressed further than its Westwood counterpart, Toonami UK wasn't calling up Ocean or Funimation for tapes, they were just getting whatever Toei had for distribution. Ocean hadn't yet submitted their tapes to Toei for those Buu episodes, but Funimation had, so when Toonami UK was looking for new episodes, Toei said "Here you go, by the way some of these episodes have different voices for now, we'll give you updated tapes later" and Toonami UK said "Sure, whatever" (actually, that conversation never likely occured, it likely just happened without any fanfare :lol:).

This also leads me to think it wasn't audience preferences so much that led to the dub airing in the UK/Netherlands or wherever, but the fact that the Westwood dub was cheaper to air than the Funimation version. The Westwood dub was done on the cheap in comparison to the Funimation version, and thus was probably cheaper to air than the Funimation version (royalties to use the Faulconer score were probably more expensive than the recycled Megaman music was).

As I mentioned before, I read that in addition to the masters, the scripts of dubs have to be sent back Japan oftentimes too. When Ocean asked Toei for materials, they likely would have had a copy of the Funimation scripts to give to them as well (though Toei has been known to be very unreliable and weird about this, as they've given some weird, "haggard" translations as TheBlackPaladin puts it which is Funimation at one point had to go off the Mexican dub at one point - plus wasn't there rumors about the people at Ocean copying the scripts from the Funimation dub off American TV - Toei's unreliability about giving scripts out would explain why they would have to go and do that at some point -plagiarism aside).

Maybe there was no animosity between Funimation, Ocean and Corus, but I will tell you this, YTV didn't air other properties Funimation for several years after they switched to using the Westwood dub (from 2000-2006). It's as if Corus' loyalty to Ocean, and wanting to score cancon points, took priority over wanting to work with Funimation again for a long time. Also, having the Canadian people work on the American dub and Canadian dub at the same time doesn't prove there wasn't animosity between Funimation and Ocean. Terry's work on the American Z and GT dub could have been freelance work done under the noses of his bosses at his regular job at Ocean. Voice actors in unions do this stuff all the time when doing non-union productions (which union contracts strongly prohibit from doing), but they get around this by freelancing themselves and being credited under a pseudonym. The people at their union job can't get them for it, while the voice actors are able to do extra work under the table, no questions asked.

Sorry Robo if I sounded condescending in anyway, I really didn't mean to. I don't have any real feelings about one dub over the other, I'm just a nerd who's more curious behind the weird story of these alternate dubs is all :lol: .

If you were curious about the truth, you would be more patient and wait for the truth, not just try to spin a narrative. Sorr, but as interesting as your post was, its still a narrative spun on feelings and some light facts to make it more believeable, which in this fandom is a dangerous thing indeed.
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Re: Ocean Studios' "Dragon Ball Kai" dub seems to be coming...

Post by Robo4900 » Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:38 pm

Cure Dragon 255 wrote:
wjbraden wrote:[snop]
If you were curious about the truth, you would be more patient and wait for the truth, not just try to spin a narrative. Sorr, but as interesting as your post was, its still a narrative spun on feelings and some light facts to make it more believeable, which in this fandom is a dangerous thing indeed.
Don't have the time to do a full teardown of what wjbraden said right now, but yeah, this is basically what I'm getting at.

We have various facts, such as YTV having significantly less programming from Funimation after the 1-167 run of DBZ, and the "Westwood" dub being recorded in Canada(More on this in a mo'), the Ocean Group logo and Anitunes opening theme on 1-167...

But, the thing is, there's so much interpretation going into turning these facts into a coherent idea of what actually happened. Hell, even the name of this dub is a misnomer. No "Westwood" company was involved in any Dragon Ball dub's production to my knowledge, the AB Z dub's common "Westwood" nickname comes from the name of the studio that the Vancouver Ocean dubs of Dragon Ball Z were all recorded at(Not BLT DB, though; that was recorded at Dick & Rogers Sound Studio). Now, it is possible one could stretch the truth -- I personally haven't been able to ascertain exactly how this worked, but -- if the Westwood studio was owned by a company called "Westwood", you could claim that a Westwood media or something was involved, but their involvement would purely be Ocean buying studio time off this Westwood company... Hardly something to name the dub after, particularly given the Saban and Pioneer dubs were also recorded at this same studio... And you don't see anyone calling the 1995 DB dub "The Dick & Rogers dub".

So... One should tread carefully when discussing Dragon Ball, since even the common name of this dub is arguably a piece of misinformation that's often overlooked and never questioned. Similarly, the idea that these dubs were "The Canadian dubs" is rather suspicious given they were produced by AB Groupe, primarily and initially for Europe, and of course, the idea that these dubs were produced to fit a cancon requirement is almost certainly bullhonkey...

So much misinformation, so few hard facts to work with... Really best if we keep speculation to a minimum, and heavily telegraph it when we do speculate.
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Re: Ocean Studios' "Dragon Ball Kai" dub seems to be coming...

Post by MasenkoHA » Wed Oct 17, 2018 8:50 pm

Robo4900 wrote:. Hell, even the name of this dub is a misnomer. No "Westwood" company was involved in any Dragon Ball dub's production to my knowledge, the AB Z dub's common "Westwood" nickname comes from the name of the studio that the Vancouver Ocean dubs of Dragon Ball Z were all recorded at(Not BLT DB, though; that was recorded at Dick & Rogers Sound Studio). Now, it is possible one could stretch the truth -- I personally haven't been able to ascertain exactly how this worked, but -- if the Westwood studio was owned by a company called "Westwood", you could claim that a Westwood media or something was involved, but their involvement would purely be Ocean buying studio time off this Westwood company... Hardly something to name the dub after, particularly given the Saban and Pioneer dubs were also recorded at this same studio... And you don't see anyone calling the 1995 DB dub "The Dick & Rogers dub".
I assume calling it the Westwood dub just makes it easier to distinguish that era. Calling it Ocean dub gets confusing if you mean everything Ocean Group dubbed or just episode 108-276. Calling it the AB Group dub may get confusing because fans seem to associate them with the weird movies they did with Big Green and porn star plumber Goku. I suppose the AB/Ocean dub might make the most sense


It all gets confusing to be honest. It’s why I don’t like calling the in-house Funimation dub simply the Funi dub as it dismisses their involvement with “the BLT dub”
and “The Saban dub”

, the idea that these dubs were produced to fit a cancon requirement is almost certainly bullhonkey...
Terry Klassen and Dave Ward (and apparently even Chris Neal) being Canucks would have allowed the in-house Funi dub to meet Cancon requirements as I understand it


So much misinformation, so few hard facts to work with... Really best if we keep speculation to a minimum, and heavily telegraph it when we do speculate.[/quote]

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Re: Ocean Studios' "Dragon Ball Kai" dub seems to be coming...

Post by wjbraden » Wed Oct 17, 2018 9:31 pm

Oh jeez, I opened Pandora's box here. Sorry guys. Like I said before I have no feelings of comparing one dub over the other, I'm just really curious as to what went on. And I know about the whole Westwood/Ocean misnomer thing, was just calling it that just to refer to it as something. Maybe "2000's Canadian dub" would be better?

And the added sound effects thing and added Ocean logo in the credits thing is still really weird...
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Re: Ocean Studios' "Dragon Ball Kai" dub seems to be coming...

Post by Super Sayian Prime » Wed Oct 17, 2018 9:34 pm

Ocean has their own recording studio in Vancouver known simply as Ocean Studios. From what I understand, in the late '90s and early 2000s, work was booming to a point their internal studio was completely booked and they'd take out time at nearby studios. That was with Westwood Media, a now defunct company.

Funimation's dub would not count as Cancon because a few production stuff are Canadian. This is for live action, but even with that more charitable rule set, you'd see it would at most get a 3/10 (6 is a pass). The only Dragon Ball dubs in the CRTC's Cancon database are the ones recorded in Calgary and Vancouver. For the record, those are:

Image
Image
Image

YTV aired the 1995 dub of Dragon Ball (my research indicates it debuted on March 30, 1996), but I guess that was so short lived no one bothered filing the CRTC paperwork.
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Re: Ocean Studios' "Dragon Ball Kai" dub seems to be coming...

Post by MasenkoHA » Wed Oct 17, 2018 10:06 pm

Thanks for the in-depth explanation Super Saiyan Prime. I was under the impression as long as Canadians or Canada was involved in the production it would meet Cancon requirements wasn’t aware there was a point system.

At the very least it still seems doubtful the alternate English dub was produced solely to meet cancon requirements if the in-house Funi dub lasted longer in Canada than certain other countries

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Re: Ocean Studios' "Dragon Ball Kai" dub seems to be coming...

Post by Attitudefan » Wed Oct 17, 2018 10:21 pm

Danfun64 wrote:
Azelf89 wrote:Actually you’re kinda right. They did use the Ocean Group logo for the in-house Funi dub (as shown here), though not always as other episodes that aired on YTV had the Funi logo at the end (as shown at the end here).
The second of those two clips is from the 108-167 period, and it sounds like ocean sound effects were added to me.
Yup they do have the Ocean sound effects added to the In-House 1999 Funimation dub.

It looks like either those are the original soundtrack placements, which I doubt, and is actually more likely that YTV/Corus Entertainment had specific heavy rock pieces replaced with other pieces like "The Saga Continues" theme and a lot of the peaceful melancholy theme (played during Vegeta's sacrifice in the Buu arc). Hence, they replaced the soundtrack which also replaced the sfx track so they had to add their own.

I just knew they had used the Ocean Westwood credits them for the credits during the FUNi dub. I swear they also used the Westwood Ocean ost for the episode title rather than the Faulconer jingle. It's no wonder the dubs are so mishmashed in my brain. Crazy I remembered correctly that the Ocean title opening was used during the first run and that Rock the Dragon was used sometimes (which also happened with the credits). The whole Canadian airing is really strange.
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Re: Ocean Studios' "Dragon Ball Kai" dub seems to be coming...

Post by Azelf89 » Wed Oct 17, 2018 10:49 pm

Danfun64 wrote:
Azelf89 wrote:Actually you’re kinda right. They did use the Ocean Group logo for the in-house Funi dub (as shown here), though not always as other episodes that aired on YTV had the Funi logo at the end (as shown at the end here).
The second of those two clips is from the 108-167 period, and it sounds like ocean sound effects were added to me.
Indeed there are. In fact, here’s a clip of that same preview, but from the Toonami broadcast (sorry for the low quality, was the only one I could find off of YouTube).

Also, something else to add on to my last comment from yesterday. Compare the Toonami broadcast of the T.V. version of episode 55/69 “Incredible Assault” to the YTV broadcast. The YTV broadcast uses not only the ending music and narration from the Uncut version of the episode, it also uses the line Jeice says at the end there that is only present in the Uncut version (and I think the T.V. version of “Frieza Approaches”, though I'm not sure as I don’t have that version of the episode to confirm). Heck, even the version of the Ginyu Force theme heard in the YTV broadcast of “Incredible Force” (here, here and here) is from the Uncut version of the episode and not used in the Toonami broadcast.

Really shows just how much of Funimation’s materials Ocean actually received.

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Re: Ocean Studios' "Dragon Ball Kai" dub seems to be coming...

Post by linkdude20002001 » Thu Oct 18, 2018 5:32 pm

MasenkoHA wrote:I assume calling it the Westwood dub just makes it easier to distinguish that era. Calling it Ocean dub gets confusing if you mean everything Ocean Group dubbed or just episode 108-276. Calling it the AB Group dub may get confusing because fans seem to associate them with the weird movies they did with Big Green and porn star plumber Goku. I suppose the AB/Ocean dub might make the most sense
The reason I calld it "the Westwood dub" is becuz I was told by an actor or two that they believed the dub to have been produced by a company called "Westwood Media. It's really all I have to go off of. Perhaps we don't know who REALLY made the dub, but it at least has the distinction of being the only DB dub (as far as I'm aware) that was dubd at Westwood Studio (and Ocean Studio, depending on the day), so it's not the WORST possible name... If anyone who knows about this dub could be found and convinced to spill the beans, then maybe one day we can have a name that we don't have doubts over.
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Re: Ocean Studios' "Dragon Ball Kai" dub seems to be coming...

Post by TheBlackPaladin » Thu Oct 18, 2018 5:57 pm

linkdude20002001 wrote:
MasenkoHA wrote:I assume calling it the Westwood dub just makes it easier to distinguish that era. Calling it Ocean dub gets confusing if you mean everything Ocean Group dubbed or just episode 108-276. Calling it the AB Group dub may get confusing because fans seem to associate them with the weird movies they did with Big Green and porn star plumber Goku. I suppose the AB/Ocean dub might make the most sense
The reason I calld it "the Westwood dub" is becuz I was told by an actor or two that they believed the dub to have been produced by a company called "Westwood Media. It's really all I have to go off of. Perhaps we don't know who REALLY made the dub, but it at least has the distinction of being the only DB dub (as far as I'm aware) that was dubd at Westwood Studio (and Ocean Studio, depending on the day), so it's not the WORST possible name... If anyone who knows about this dub could be found and convinced to spill the beans, then maybe one day we can have a name that we don't have doubts over.
Indeed, this is the problem with "fan terms" (things like, "Ocean dub," "Westwood dub," "Remastered dub," that kind of thing)...since they are "fan terms," and not official terms, confusion can arise. Heck, before I realized people were calling that dub "the Westwood dub," I referred to it as the "Post-Saban Ocean dub."

I really do need to take a step back every once in a while and marvel at just how complex and complicated the situation is with Dragon Ball as far as English dubs are concerned. Heck, one of the few reasons I can keep up with it is because of how long I've been a fan. If I had to sit down and tell somebody, for the first time, what the English dub situation with Dragon Ball is...then good Kami would that take a while! Not to mention that it would be longer due to the inclusion of the phrase, "If you're confused, don't feel ashamed," several times.

It really can be dizzying. I've never taken a formal tally, but I'm willing to bet that if you looked at all the languages Dragon Ball got dubbed into, English would be the language with the biggest number of separate dubs.

In any event, to this day, we've never received a formal explanation for why the Westwood dub exists or who was behind the decision to create it in the first place. If there's anybody who has a shot of knowing, it's Ken Morrison, and to the best of my knowledge, he has never been interviewed.
A "rather haggard" translation of a line from Future Gohan in DBZ, provided to FUNimation by Toei:
"To think of fighting that is this fun...so, it was pleasant fight, as many as, therefore is a feeling which is good the fight where."

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Re: Ocean Studios' "Dragon Ball Kai" dub seems to be coming...

Post by thomas1up » Thu Oct 18, 2018 6:22 pm

TheBlackPaladin wrote:
linkdude20002001 wrote:
MasenkoHA wrote:I assume calling it the Westwood dub just makes it easier to distinguish that era. Calling it Ocean dub gets confusing if you mean everything Ocean Group dubbed or just episode 108-276. Calling it the AB Group dub may get confusing because fans seem to associate them with the weird movies they did with Big Green and porn star plumber Goku. I suppose the AB/Ocean dub might make the most sense
The reason I calld it "the Westwood dub" is becuz I was told by an actor or two that they believed the dub to have been produced by a company called "Westwood Media. It's really all I have to go off of. Perhaps we don't know who REALLY made the dub, but it at least has the distinction of being the only DB dub (as far as I'm aware) that was dubd at Westwood Studio (and Ocean Studio, depending on the day), so it's not the WORST possible name... If anyone who knows about this dub could be found and convinced to spill the beans, then maybe one day we can have a name that we don't have doubts over.
Indeed, this is the problem with "fan terms" (things like, "Ocean dub," "Westwood dub," "Remastered dub," that kind of thing)...since they are "fan terms," and not official terms, confusion can arise. Heck, before I realized people were calling that dub "the Westwood dub," I referred to it as the "Post-Saban Ocean dub."

I really do need to take a step back every once in a while and marvel at just how complex and complicated the situation is with Dragon Ball as far as English dubs are concerned. Heck, one of the few reasons I can keep up with it is because of how long I've been a fan. If I had to sit down and tell somebody, for the first time, what the English dub situation with Dragon Ball is...then good Kami would that take a while! Not to mention that it would be longer due to the inclusion of the phrase, "If you're confused, don't feel ashamed," several times.

It really can be dizzying. I've never taken a formal tally, but I'm willing to bet that if you looked at all the languages Dragon Ball got dubbed into, English would be the language with the biggest number of separate dubs.

In any event, to this day, we've never received a formal explanation for why the Westwood dub exists or who was behind the decision to create it in the first place. If there's anybody who has a shot of knowing, it's Ken Morrison, and to the best of my knowledge, he has never been interviewed.
Dragon Ball has an ABSURD amount of English dubs. You have Harmony Gold, Animax, Creative Corp, BLT Ocean Dub, Blue Water Dub, AB Group (BigGreen) and Funimation for original dragon ball alone!

Then with DBZ, you got Ocean (Saban), Ocean (Westwood), Ocean (Pioneer), Funimation, AB Group, Speedy(unofficial though), Creative Corp, and Solar Entertainment.

THEN, you have Dragon Ball Kai which has another Funimation english dub which people argue about being better/worse than the DBZ dub. As well as an alternative Ocean Dub that may release soon.

ON TOP OF THAT, you have Dragon Ball Super which has a funimation english dub, and a Bang Zoom dub.

Basically, Dragon Ball's english dub situation is a complete mess which is hard to explain. I remember when I was first interested in DBZ the first thing I wondered is whether to watch the ocean dub, funi dub, or kai dub as I saw people on the internet constantly arguing over which is better. In the end it was so confusing I just decided to watch the sub, a decision I do not regret.
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Re: Ocean Studios' "Dragon Ball Kai" dub seems to be coming...

Post by TheBlackPaladin » Thu Oct 18, 2018 10:32 pm

thomas1up wrote:Then with DBZ, you got Ocean (Saban), Ocean (Westwood), Ocean (Pioneer), Funimation, AB Group, Speedy(unofficial though), Creative Corp, and Solar Entertainment.
I agree, it's totally absurd! As if this list weren't long enough, though, you forgot one: the FUNimation (semi) re-dub for the orange bricks, which saw some dialogue re-recorded, and some left as-is.

Seriously, try explaining all this to a franchise newcomer...if they started banging their head against the nearest wall or table, I wouldn't blame them!
A "rather haggard" translation of a line from Future Gohan in DBZ, provided to FUNimation by Toei:
"To think of fighting that is this fun...so, it was pleasant fight, as many as, therefore is a feeling which is good the fight where."

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Re: Ocean Studios' "Dragon Ball Kai" dub seems to be coming...

Post by Robo4900 » Fri Oct 19, 2018 12:10 am

linkdude20002001 wrote:
MasenkoHA wrote:I assume calling it the Westwood dub just makes it easier to distinguish that era. Calling it Ocean dub gets confusing if you mean everything Ocean Group dubbed or just episode 108-276. Calling it the AB Group dub may get confusing because fans seem to associate them with the weird movies they did with Big Green and porn star plumber Goku. I suppose the AB/Ocean dub might make the most sense
The reason I calld it "the Westwood dub" is becuz I was told by an actor or two that they believed the dub to have been produced by a company called "Westwood Media. It's really all I have to go off of. Perhaps we don't know who REALLY made the dub, but it at least has the distinction of being the only DB dub (as far as I'm aware) that was dubd at Westwood Studio (and Ocean Studio, depending on the day), so it's not the WORST possible name... If anyone who knows about this dub could be found and convinced to spill the beans, then maybe one day we can have a name that we don't have doubts over.
The actors really have no clue who produced this dub, or really anything as far as that goes. Scott McNeil, I believe, has in the past referred to the latter Ocean work as being done under Pioneer. And that's not just him thinking of the movies, he was definitely referring to the 108-276 series dub. It's understandable where he got this misconception, since the work on the movies from '98 was Pioneer, then they weren't told anything after that, so it's easy to either assume or misremember this.

But again, in terms of "The distinction of being the only DB dub [...] dubbed at Westwood studio", I believe all, or at the very least most, of Ocean's work on Dragon Ball Z was done at the Westwood studio, so that doesn't make the Westwood studio a unique feature of their latter work on the series any more than Scott McNeil playing Piccolo is unique to that dub.

A much cleaner way to refer to the "Westwood" dub would be the AB Z dub, which is how I usually refer to it these days.

Of course, "Westwood" is the fan nickname most commonly used, so there's really no problem in using it, I just pointed it out to show that even something as fundamental yet simple as the name of this dub is rather complex and sordid. As you may have observed from this brief tangent about the validity of that name.
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